Hi DUC
I have check the spec of small Visaton FRS 5X ...... not bad !
Very linear and perfect impedance , but for the speaker I will down to 500 hz with the FRS 5 .
Building a multicellular with FRS 5x in each cell would be very good sound
I am curious about the phase ?! tweeters are in front of the mid-bass cabinet ?!
Time alignement with processors ? I'm sure you have dynamic but is the soundstage good also ? (speakers disseaper ? sound is not sended to ears ?)
Yeap not bad, I like the deep between 3000 to 6000 ! BBC approved ! Maybe with a little notch to flat the 2000 to 3000 ?!
A bout the "flat" (very good translation
) : If i have to beginn from scratch this will be the first choice on my list : nominal impedance, the higher possible like 5 ohms and the flater possible! The flater phase will be in second. Transform Fournier i frequency domain curve for drivers will come after !Very big or in a wall : infinite load. Problem with OB : placement is difficult like set up a speakers with CDs
. You need to place an OB bass in the middle of your room... few people choose between his wife & family against music if none dedicated music room !I think the choice of Sebastien is good : beginning from a petite Onken, then thinking to the higher drivers. Smart as beginners most of time beginn from the tweeter !
Very big or in a wall : infinite load. Problem with OB : placement is difficult like set up a speakers with CDs
I think the choice of Sebastien is good : beginning from a petite Onken, then thinking to the higher drivers. Smart as beginners most of time beginn from the tweeter !
CD = ? ...... I don't see !
For the bass box , I thinking ( je pensais que ) that was a closed box ( air suspension ) that you said
Today for bass in OB it's not a big problem ...........Narrow board and corrected with digital equalizer or by software
BMS driver is $650. each it's not the same that $10. each for the FRS 5X ...... the phase is not perfect but nearly ( acceptable )
Sorry : cd = compression driver
yes air suspension is the way I will go with my few knowledge (almost nothing) and my hearing of finished systems. No space friendly...with the old high efficienty bass drivers à la ALtec. But is it really a problem if you have space.
infinite load : I would say : bass driver in a wall, and behind a another room = air suspension, with the same compliance behind and in front of the cone, no ? Advantage of OB with no added reflexion in time but the reflextion of side walls and maybe the "problem" of the common big bafle (the wall) : but here are talking below 60 hz.
radian 750 is maybe a cheaper alternativ, but it's not coxial.
In the price than you give from BMS : you have all the drivers and the horn for one speaker... and most of the time a horn à la Iwata is not a gift !
Sebastien, take care with the time to set up a system with horns without active and digital EQ. Follow the advice of very experienced prople who tried before like Ibre or elswhere like here.
Coaxial is maybe a way to go above your GP audio you bought, but ask testimonies of such systemes. Many here tried with Beymas e.g. I don't know if the time alignement is good for hifi even in coaxial... don't forgett those compression drivers are for professional "disco" parties, most of the times.
yes air suspension is the way I will go with my few knowledge (almost nothing) and my hearing of finished systems. No space friendly...with the old high efficienty bass drivers à la ALtec. But is it really a problem if you have space.
infinite load : I would say : bass driver in a wall, and behind a another room = air suspension, with the same compliance behind and in front of the cone, no ? Advantage of OB with no added reflexion in time but the reflextion of side walls and maybe the "problem" of the common big bafle (the wall) : but here are talking below 60 hz.
radian 750 is maybe a cheaper alternativ, but it's not coxial.
In the price than you give from BMS : you have all the drivers and the horn for one speaker... and most of the time a horn à la Iwata is not a gift !
Sebastien, take care with the time to set up a system with horns without active and digital EQ. Follow the advice of very experienced prople who tried before like Ibre or elswhere like here.
Coaxial is maybe a way to go above your GP audio you bought, but ask testimonies of such systemes. Many here tried with Beymas e.g. I don't know if the time alignement is good for hifi even in coaxial... don't forgett those compression drivers are for professional "disco" parties, most of the times.
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Sébastien , with a double 300B , he have not many choice ....... he must go to CD for the mid-high and another amp for the bass ..... like Francis I set up
The BMS horn for 2" is like JBL horn ( biradial ) not as good as a Multicellular and not down to 500 hz . ................ Francis there 2" is set at 350 Hz .
Visaton FRS 5X is not for Sebastien ( not enough efficiency ) , but with a Mms at 0.7 gr. he must have a very high resolution ( and a direct radiation , super for make all nuance in sound ) .... and .... the mass of diapharm of CD is between 1 to 2 gr , not better but he have much more magnet power
The BMS horn for 2" is like JBL horn ( biradial ) not as good as a Multicellular and not down to 500 hz . ................ Francis there 2" is set at 350 Hz .
Visaton FRS 5X is not for Sebastien ( not enough efficiency ) , but with a Mms at 0.7 gr. he must have a very high resolution ( and a direct radiation , super for make all nuance in sound ) .... and .... the mass of diapharm of CD is between 1 to 2 gr , not better but he have much more magnet power
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... And with the Faital Pro combo, it seems difficult to go below 900 hz without damping the 600 hz resonance FS impedance peak... Here we maybe need a 3 way also. But not bad this little combo on the paper... If I have more money and free space... I would buy it. Maybe with the initial GP Audio of Sebastien if climbed to 800/900/1000 hz? To beginn and waiting for a 3 ways later (the two 300 B for the 2 highest ways and a little class transistor class A for the bass this time !).
The Altec 604 and the pioneer equivalent have a pretty curve, little EQ or narrow band pass notch around 3000 hz on your graph... "et z'y va" ("let
's go") ! (on the paper I mean... inreality I remember a paper about a DIY with it on sixmoonsaudio (lookt at audioreviews section)... not so simple !)
How much is it an Altec 604 with the CD for the coax horn ? Does the Faital CD above can match with adaptor on it ?
Does anybody try this coax Altec 604 in OB with an Onken below with X0 around 100 to 200 hz ? (Or for the courageous in 4 ways with an hidh bass OB between 60 to 200 hz?).
The "vertical Onken" of Hiraga with the GP Audio "clone" sound fantastic... but tunning & setting up such a cabinet is expensive too.
Sebastien, did you choose your conmpression driver and horn now ? Others leads and interesting readings on your side ?
The Altec 604 and the pioneer equivalent have a pretty curve, little EQ or narrow band pass notch around 3000 hz on your graph... "et z'y va" ("let
's go") ! (on the paper I mean... inreality I remember a paper about a DIY with it on sixmoonsaudio (lookt at audioreviews section)... not so simple !)
How much is it an Altec 604 with the CD for the coax horn ? Does the Faital CD above can match with adaptor on it ?
Does anybody try this coax Altec 604 in OB with an Onken below with X0 around 100 to 200 hz ? (Or for the courageous in 4 ways with an hidh bass OB between 60 to 200 hz?).
The "vertical Onken" of Hiraga with the GP Audio "clone" sound fantastic... but tunning & setting up such a cabinet is expensive too.
Sebastien, did you choose your conmpression driver and horn now ? Others leads and interesting readings on your side ?
i mean just in the mid > 100 or 200 with or without bafle plan and a little of EQ in the low... QTS is not important with OB in the mid if you have EQ, Linkwitz transform or processecor EQ to bump the low. linkwitz use mid in OB with low QTS. we need low QT for transcient in the mid even with OB... the sound would be slower than a dwarf walking in honey !
But the problem seems more to be the diameter 15" for an OB with good directivity. Altec used it around 1500 hz (in vented box or big closed box > 200 L) for XO with the embeded little horn and I am not sure above 800 could be good for directivity and soundstage (sorry no better woed comes in mind here)... or maybe with toe in at 15°... And finally the design of the horn is for a XO > 1500 ? Finally a legendary driver to avoid maybe because of polar response of the total driver could be strange but 0°!
Hummm I saw it is for 1" CD and the radian is 1.4 "...
Sorry I'm totaly OT here... it doesn't help Sebastien to choose the upper driver !
But the problem seems more to be the diameter 15" for an OB with good directivity. Altec used it around 1500 hz (in vented box or big closed box > 200 L) for XO with the embeded little horn and I am not sure above 800 could be good for directivity and soundstage (sorry no better woed comes in mind here)... or maybe with toe in at 15°... And finally the design of the horn is for a XO > 1500 ? Finally a legendary driver to avoid maybe because of polar response of the total driver could be strange but 0°!
Hummm I saw it is for 1" CD and the radian is 1.4 "...
Sorry I'm totaly OT here... it doesn't help Sebastien to choose the upper driver !
Hi Eldam, hi everyone,
I had extensive discussion via email with Francis Ibre regarding that project. BMS coaxial driver was Francis' idea to get something acceptable but not perfect in this two ways petite Onken project.
Yesterday night, while going to bed, I realized that there is so many constraints and compromises with the petite Onken in two ways that at this time, I told myself that if I want an optimal pair of petites Onken, I should consider them in 3 ways.
Here I am now. A part of the challenge is still there because I consider to cross-over the GPA 414-8B between 650-800 Hz to respect directivity lobes as explain in Francis' book. So I still need a compression driver that could go low but no more in the high frequencies.
I'm opening new doors.
To discuss,
Sébastien
You maybe have to consider in a three way minimum 2 octaves between the LP & HP filter of the mid. It means no more than > 500 for the Onken to have a crossover in hig mid < 2000 hz. Of course it's theory. Specialists advise you here, I'm not, it's just personnal experiences with listening... at more you have the risk of a difficult match between the upper driver and the Altec, also a difficulty with Xover if the tweeter (1" CD) has a too low Xover.
The better for voices, life of music: would be to try to beginn with a mid around 100 to 200 regarding to the order of the filter (easier with active if not necessary but copy already a good design... or risk of wasting money or the great quality of drivers), then around 1000 to 1500 then a 1" or 1.4" CD or beyma TPL 150H (>1500 hz) with its little horn (try to listen both, philosophy is different). a lot of here Beyma, Faital Pro : between 10" or 12". Light 8" width band à la Supravox... more distorsion and a Fhz curve like Marylin Monroe if you want to stay with High efficienty (300B amp : you want !). With this last point I disagree IMHO with F. Ibre book. himself he didn't use such a driver as I know...book get a little old but him advices stay pragmatic. So better for you 10 or 12" pro driver.
In theory those choice of crossover could minimize problems but specialists and good designers make what they want because they know how to have fine set up with the drivers they select.
Maybe testimonies of "high efficienty" 's fellows help you by now as good 3 ways are more common...
Good Luke and thin active filter if you can.
The better for voices, life of music: would be to try to beginn with a mid around 100 to 200 regarding to the order of the filter (easier with active if not necessary but copy already a good design... or risk of wasting money or the great quality of drivers), then around 1000 to 1500 then a 1" or 1.4" CD or beyma TPL 150H (>1500 hz) with its little horn (try to listen both, philosophy is different). a lot of here Beyma, Faital Pro : between 10" or 12". Light 8" width band à la Supravox... more distorsion and a Fhz curve like Marylin Monroe if you want to stay with High efficienty (300B amp : you want !). With this last point I disagree IMHO with F. Ibre book. himself he didn't use such a driver as I know...book get a little old but him advices stay pragmatic. So better for you 10 or 12" pro driver.
In theory those choice of crossover could minimize problems but specialists and good designers make what they want because they know how to have fine set up with the drivers they select.
Maybe testimonies of "high efficienty" 's fellows help you by now as good 3 ways are more common...
Good Luke and thin active filter if you can.
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Il y a une paire de Emilar EA 1" ( 500 hz à 20 000 hz ) ..... c'est comme l'Altec 802 , c'est des anciens techniciens d'Altec qu'ont fondé Emilar
C'est ce que j'ai et j'ai déjà eu des Altec 806 ...... j'aime mieux les Emilar
le classique c'est 7 ou 800 hz
il reste seulement une journée .......... au Canada
.... en francais ..... pour pas vendre la mèche
Emilar ea 175 16A Conpression Drivers and EH800 Horns Nicer Than JBL Altec | eBay
C'est ce que j'ai et j'ai déjà eu des Altec 806 ...... j'aime mieux les Emilar
le classique c'est 7 ou 800 hz
il reste seulement une journée .......... au Canada
.... en francais ..... pour pas vendre la mèche
Emilar ea 175 16A Conpression Drivers and EH800 Horns Nicer Than JBL Altec | eBay
Vive les vieux loups de mers ! Ils connaissent le bruit des vagues !
'What a surprise, there are always drivers to discovers ! Vive the World !'
Hi everyone,
Yes, I win the auction on which nobodyelse than me bid. Good for me! At the 150$ including the hors, it's 10 times cheaper than what I tought would be the price for the pair of BMS and the horn for example. So I'm pretty happy. Thanks again Michel for the information.
Now, it appears clear that I'm moving for a 3 ways petites Onken. So let's talk about a good tweeter. I'll have a look in the Fostex family which has a many good ones.
All of your suggestion are welcomed. For now, I don't know what will be the cross-over frequency between the Emilar and the eventual tweeter. To discuss...
Bonne journée,
Sébastien
Yes, I win the auction on which nobodyelse than me bid. Good for me! At the 150$ including the hors, it's 10 times cheaper than what I tought would be the price for the pair of BMS and the horn for example. So I'm pretty happy. Thanks again Michel for the information.
Now, it appears clear that I'm moving for a 3 ways petites Onken. So let's talk about a good tweeter. I'll have a look in the Fostex family which has a many good ones.
All of your suggestion are welcomed. For now, I don't know what will be the cross-over frequency between the Emilar and the eventual tweeter. To discuss...
Bonne journée,
Sébastien
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Here's the technical sheet of the Emilar driver:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
yes you don't need tweeter, you need a cone driver between the CD/Horn and your Altec. Believe us or Ibre !
You shall not go to Fostex tweeter : just crap, the better ones are not maid any more and you just don't need it but if you want torture your dog or cat! If you need you have to stay with 1 or 1.4 CD or the air motion transformer I advised in a thread above.
But here with the Emilé, the best way stay :
- try not to waste all the design by a too high crossover with the Altec. ( no more than 300 hz but 100 to 150 advised but if you have active EQ)
- Find a mid_bass/mid 10 to 12 "driver, because of directivity (Faital Pro or beyma or accurate advices from experienced people). Let it sing on 2 octaves minimum to minimize the problem with the LP & HP xovers. Try not to use more than second order in the HighPass of this mid driver (= you need the lower XO point possible).
- With the economy of the Emile : go with MINIDSP WITH PHASE eq and 3 Curryman I2S DAC on it (Unixdevelopper fellow from DIYAUDIO) to have rapid good result (having music before the summer !)
- Of course double check all opinion and follow the one of the more experienced like Ibre or the others ones here (cause my goal is just you avoid the bigger mistakes !). 4MC2 advise above could give you better result but maybe more expensive : your choose. He has great experience as I can see.
just IMHO.
You shall not go to Fostex tweeter : just crap, the better ones are not maid any more and you just don't need it but if you want torture your dog or cat! If you need you have to stay with 1 or 1.4 CD or the air motion transformer I advised in a thread above.
But here with the Emilé, the best way stay :
- try not to waste all the design by a too high crossover with the Altec. ( no more than 300 hz but 100 to 150 advised but if you have active EQ)
- Find a mid_bass/mid 10 to 12 "driver, because of directivity (Faital Pro or beyma or accurate advices from experienced people). Let it sing on 2 octaves minimum to minimize the problem with the LP & HP xovers. Try not to use more than second order in the HighPass of this mid driver (= you need the lower XO point possible).
- With the economy of the Emile : go with MINIDSP WITH PHASE eq and 3 Curryman I2S DAC on it (Unixdevelopper fellow from DIYAUDIO) to have rapid good result (having music before the summer !)
- Of course double check all opinion and follow the one of the more experienced like Ibre or the others ones here (cause my goal is just you avoid the bigger mistakes !). 4MC2 advise above could give you better result but maybe more expensive : your choose. He has great experience as I can see.
just IMHO.
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