Hi everyone,
After the LS35 have captured my interest and thinking of redesigning the petit Onken to about 105 instead of 155 L, I think I made a big circle back to my starting point to make the peite Onken as originally seen in L'Audiophile .
In fact, it drew to my attention that Mr. Koizumi had spent so much time and testing to develop this small Onken and optimized it . Moreover, several clones of different volumes have been done in France over the past 40 years without ever reaching the performance of the original small .
Plus, despite an hypothetical 105 L volume , it seems that with the output impedance of my PSE 300B, it will require a larger volume. Just as the use of a passive filter that will add resistance with the selfs in it.
I was also told that, ultimately , a larger volume is better and it can be adjusted by putting bricks in the cab if needed to test smaller volume. Optionally, the said volume may even be reduced by placing a plywood in the cab to get it right. That's not to mention that there is also the laminar vents on the petite Onken that can be opened or blocked to allow adjustment .
With this return to the petite Onken à la' Koizumi and I come back to the question that follows me for some time : what are the options for the midrange and treble, with a two ways design with a compression driver above, filter close to 800 Hz?
We saw TAD TD2001 (apparently a mythical one) , also someone talk to me about BMS 4592ND :
Overview
For twice cheaper Beyma these seem to me quite well :
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20CP755Ti-1.htm
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma CP750Ti-1.htm
To be discussed,
Sebastian
After the LS35 have captured my interest and thinking of redesigning the petit Onken to about 105 instead of 155 L, I think I made a big circle back to my starting point to make the peite Onken as originally seen in L'Audiophile .
In fact, it drew to my attention that Mr. Koizumi had spent so much time and testing to develop this small Onken and optimized it . Moreover, several clones of different volumes have been done in France over the past 40 years without ever reaching the performance of the original small .
Plus, despite an hypothetical 105 L volume , it seems that with the output impedance of my PSE 300B, it will require a larger volume. Just as the use of a passive filter that will add resistance with the selfs in it.
I was also told that, ultimately , a larger volume is better and it can be adjusted by putting bricks in the cab if needed to test smaller volume. Optionally, the said volume may even be reduced by placing a plywood in the cab to get it right. That's not to mention that there is also the laminar vents on the petite Onken that can be opened or blocked to allow adjustment .
With this return to the petite Onken à la' Koizumi and I come back to the question that follows me for some time : what are the options for the midrange and treble, with a two ways design with a compression driver above, filter close to 800 Hz?
We saw TAD TD2001 (apparently a mythical one) , also someone talk to me about BMS 4592ND :
Overview
For twice cheaper Beyma these seem to me quite well :
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20CP755Ti-1.htm
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma CP750Ti-1.htm
To be discussed,
Sebastian
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GPA drivers
Hi there S: There has been a great deal of discussion toward end of the "Beyond the Aerial" thread on this site about the GPA drivers, including used antique Altec drivers and the new GPA's. My personal opinion is old materials/technology are trumped by current... comparing state of the art for old vers current. My Altec VOC components from 1963 (although still functional) really are not in the same league with modern high quality drivers. ...regards, Michael
Hi there S: There has been a great deal of discussion toward end of the "Beyond the Aerial" thread on this site about the GPA drivers, including used antique Altec drivers and the new GPA's. My personal opinion is old materials/technology are trumped by current... comparing state of the art for old vers current. My Altec VOC components from 1963 (although still functional) really are not in the same league with modern high quality drivers. ...regards, Michael
Hi GM,
I was just reading back the thread because we talked about drivers at the beginning, wondering exactly how to interpreted this measure about GPA's 414-8B I guess...
Should I understand that -6 dB at about 160 deg is acceptable? Is there any standard for this or it's only personnal choice about directivity and the influence of the different reflexions of the room you will have between the two ways in this design for example?
Sébastien
Hi Sebastien,
We already spoke about your project on the French forum Elektor.
Regarding your question about which driver to use instead of the TAD, what about using the same medium as Jean Hiraga is using with his Voice of the Theatre. J H is using Altec 288C compression drivers with 1505B multicellular Horn and a very well designed EQ/crossover that avoid the use of a tweeter. It goes down to 500Hz and can do without tweeter.
I had the opportunity to hear his system when I was living in Paris and was very impressed by the way the speakers integrated together and the total lack of the typical "horn sound" that all except the best compression drivers have. So much that I copied his EQ design to adapt it to my TAD + Petite Onken.
This system has been described in great details in Sound Practices No11 and 13 (using 288L and K I think). I can send you a copy if you don't already have them and are interested.
Jean-Noel
We already spoke about your project on the French forum Elektor.
Regarding your question about which driver to use instead of the TAD, what about using the same medium as Jean Hiraga is using with his Voice of the Theatre. J H is using Altec 288C compression drivers with 1505B multicellular Horn and a very well designed EQ/crossover that avoid the use of a tweeter. It goes down to 500Hz and can do without tweeter.
I had the opportunity to hear his system when I was living in Paris and was very impressed by the way the speakers integrated together and the total lack of the typical "horn sound" that all except the best compression drivers have. So much that I copied his EQ design to adapt it to my TAD + Petite Onken.
This system has been described in great details in Sound Practices No11 and 13 (using 288L and K I think). I can send you a copy if you don't already have them and are interested.
Jean-Noel
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Bonjour Jean-Noël,
I'm glad you post here. I'm still unable to log in with my username on new Elektor's interface.
No need to send me Sound Pratices, I already bought de CD last year. What a great publication! Plus, I checked those two article two weeks ago and I'll get them a second look. I'm open to consider this set-up.
Thanks for the suggestion,
Sébastien
Hi DrBoar, hi everyone,
At this point, I'm coming back to your suggestion. The frequency response seems very good and there is also many good reports on this compression driver. Plus, it could easily be paired with Faital horn to get a interesting starting kit for the petite Onken in two ways, all of this at a reasonable price.
Have a good day,
Sébastien
HI Jean-Noel,
Dou you talk about that one ? Résultats Google Recherche d'images correspondant à http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D32311%26stc%3D1%26d%3D1209407666
Is is not nearer to an Onken whic have its flow parts nearer to the ground than "a Voice of Teather" ? I 'm always asking how he did to divide per two the volume needed in him speaker. Anyway, A voice of theater for midbass and medium is fantastic but the low end is poor < 60 hz... but at home we maybe don't need more than une Voix du Theatre for these frequencies...
I'm glad to know the ref hiraga used with the tweeter above. Do you know the wood used in his design ? It's seeming not to be plywood or no a current one but laminated pieces of wood glued side by side like some used for work tables in Kitchen ?
I will be very interested by your links or docs please !
Sebastien, sorry to be a little off topic here.
Regards
Hi Eldam,
Sorry, I was not talking about the same speakers as you but about the ones Jean Hiraga was using when he was at "La Nouvelle Revue du Son".
I just find a link to the article I was talking earlier from Sound Practices describing Jean Hiraga speakers based on the Voice of The Theatre:
http://wajonaudio.webs.com/Voice%20of%20the%20theatre.pdf
Have a good evening
Jean-Noel
Sorry, I was not talking about the same speakers as you but about the ones Jean Hiraga was using when he was at "La Nouvelle Revue du Son".
I just find a link to the article I was talking earlier from Sound Practices describing Jean Hiraga speakers based on the Voice of The Theatre:
http://wajonaudio.webs.com/Voice%20of%20the%20theatre.pdf
Have a good evening
Jean-Noel
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Mister Ibre doesn't save time to help everybody at elektor forum : great experience, you can trust him.
Hi Eldam, hi everyone,
Francis Ibre suggest me to consider BMS coaxial compression driver to stay in a two ways design of great quality. While realizing that many BMS are coaxial, I find this an excellent idea for my projet. Here are some BMS I could consider:
Overview
Overview
Overview
Do some of you have experience with one of them?
Have a good day,
Sébastien
Hi Sebastien,
i thinked on the same idea but didn't want you to spend more money as it can be a trap...
That's why I like the way you reconsider your design before beginn it.
Trust Mr Ibre as he don't like two ways. if he says to you thi sparticular one is better : follow him.
@ 4MC2 : In fact I think there is no better than Voice of Theater for mid-bass and high bass, but sur for bass (2 or 2.5 first octaves) No things better than a gig closed box with QTS around .7 and damping mass of air not to compact for back radiation beneath the cone ! For my personal test I prefer the transcient of closed box in bass than bass reflex... Maybe close Band pass design(with a cavity in front of the drivers is good too (I have two speakers like that in low efficienty) can be good but hard to set up as a deal could be find between transcient and width of band pass !
@ Jean Noel... thank you for the pdf.... My dream : a multicellurar mid horn like that to swap from the low efficienty to the high... design à la JM le Cleach is a good less inexpensive alternativ if you have space in your living room and a patient WAF !
i thinked on the same idea but didn't want you to spend more money as it can be a trap...
That's why I like the way you reconsider your design before beginn it.
Trust Mr Ibre as he don't like two ways. if he says to you thi sparticular one is better : follow him.
@ 4MC2 : In fact I think there is no better than Voice of Theater for mid-bass and high bass, but sur for bass (2 or 2.5 first octaves) No things better than a gig closed box with QTS around .7 and damping mass of air not to compact for back radiation beneath the cone ! For my personal test I prefer the transcient of closed box in bass than bass reflex... Maybe close Band pass design(with a cavity in front of the drivers is good too (I have two speakers like that in low efficienty) can be good but hard to set up as a deal could be find between transcient and width of band pass !
@ Jean Noel... thank you for the pdf.... My dream : a multicellurar mid horn like that to swap from the low efficienty to the high... design à la JM le Cleach is a good less inexpensive alternativ if you have space in your living room and a patient WAF !
Any here,
Do you remenber the brand of the high efficienty japanese famous monitor speakers (70ss & 80s') which used the ALTEC with a front little multicellular horn than Hiraga use in him last comercial speakers ? Do the CD exist on the shelf yet ?
Maybe in second hand could be a good purchase for Sebastien ? What it the price of these Altec at Great Plain Audio ?
I didn't finally understand with my bad english with the testimoinie of Gary if new one copy are better than the genuine Altec. Ok same equipment at Great Plain audio than Altec but the cone material and roundings ? Better today than ever ?
Do they try to improve the old design as well at Great Plain Audio ?
Do you remenber the brand of the high efficienty japanese famous monitor speakers (70ss & 80s') which used the ALTEC with a front little multicellular horn than Hiraga use in him last comercial speakers ? Do the CD exist on the shelf yet ?
Maybe in second hand could be a good purchase for Sebastien ? What it the price of these Altec at Great Plain Audio ?
I didn't finally understand with my bad english with the testimoinie of Gary if new one copy are better than the genuine Altec. Ok same equipment at Great Plain audio than Altec but the cone material and roundings ? Better today than ever ?
Do they try to improve the old design as well at Great Plain Audio ?
Sébastien , You know the price ? ...... find
Interresting ...... annular diaphram with super tweeter in center
He write 300 to 7Kz but on graph it's more 700 hz !
" The unique voice coil technology employs a light weight Copper Clad Aluminium wire wound "
not new .............. Coral and MarkAudio use it
Hi Eldam
"
@ 4MC2 : In fact I think there is no better than Voice of Theater for mid-bass and high bass, but sur for bass (2 or 2.5 first octaves) No things better than a gig closed box with QTS around .7 and damping mass of air not to compact for back radiation beneath the cone ! For my personal test I prefer the transcient of closed box in bass than bass reflex... Maybe close Band pass design(with a cavity in front of the drivers is good too (I have two speakers like that in low efficienty) can be good but hard to set up as a deal could be find between transcient and width of band pass ! "
Me , I prefer the bass from OB ..... more articulated
big closed box = ? ..... how many big . I will perhaps build one
Interresting ...... annular diaphram with super tweeter in center
He write 300 to 7Kz but on graph it's more 700 hz !
" The unique voice coil technology employs a light weight Copper Clad Aluminium wire wound "
not new .............. Coral and MarkAudio use it
Hi Eldam
"
@ 4MC2 : In fact I think there is no better than Voice of Theater for mid-bass and high bass, but sur for bass (2 or 2.5 first octaves) No things better than a gig closed box with QTS around .7 and damping mass of air not to compact for back radiation beneath the cone ! For my personal test I prefer the transcient of closed box in bass than bass reflex... Maybe close Band pass design(with a cavity in front of the drivers is good too (I have two speakers like that in low efficienty) can be good but hard to set up as a deal could be find between transcient and width of band pass ! "
Me , I prefer the bass from OB ..... more articulated
big closed box = ? ..... how many big . I will perhaps build one
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i have owned the Petit Onken for five years with a TAD 2001. Honestly i never got really happy with them. Bass extension was kind of okay integrating the compression driver difficult. Building the cabinet is also a pita. You need to invest a lot of money time and energy to clone an old design.
I am now running a speaker designed in Germany called PHI it does cost a fraction of the Onken clones and beats it every aspect which is hard to believe if you see the price of the speakers. User google and google translate to find out more :
Strassacker, Komponenten: Lautsprecher, Frequenzweichen, Bauelemente
i can only highly recommend this speaker
I am now running a speaker designed in Germany called PHI it does cost a fraction of the Onken clones and beats it every aspect which is hard to believe if you see the price of the speakers. User google and google translate to find out more :
Strassacker, Komponenten: Lautsprecher, Frequenzweichen, Bauelemente
i can only highly recommend this speaker
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