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I'm also coming from the Kipsch forum, same username. I don't frequent it that often and found that the technical/restoration forum had been really lacklustre in the past couple of months only to find the reasons in this thread. Yeesh. Immediately signed up here 🙂
@claudej12000 has guided me in building an all horn, 3 way active + 2 LAB-12 tapped horn sub system which brings me much joy and tweaking possibilities. System as follows: QPie with Kappa 15C, SM120A Mid horn with A55G, SMAHL V2 with DE120. Driven by an Ashly NE8250 8 channel amp with Protea DSP, which was absolutely lambasted at ASR but which sounds just fine to me.
I've applied @Cask05 's advice for corner placement and room treatment. Also tried my best with the "Dialing in a DSP Crossover" tutorial. Wonder if he ever released the second part?
I also believe a horn forum here would be very helpful and serve a subset of mad-scientist type diyAudiophile. Anything I can do to help this become a reality?
@claudej12000 has guided me in building an all horn, 3 way active + 2 LAB-12 tapped horn sub system which brings me much joy and tweaking possibilities. System as follows: QPie with Kappa 15C, SM120A Mid horn with A55G, SMAHL V2 with DE120. Driven by an Ashly NE8250 8 channel amp with Protea DSP, which was absolutely lambasted at ASR but which sounds just fine to me.
I've applied @Cask05 's advice for corner placement and room treatment. Also tried my best with the "Dialing in a DSP Crossover" tutorial. Wonder if he ever released the second part?
I also believe a horn forum here would be very helpful and serve a subset of mad-scientist type diyAudiophile. Anything I can do to help this become a reality?
Holy cow, Ray, that is beautifully imposing! I would love to hear your system. I just got a pair of KG 4.2 speakers given to me by a sax player friend. I still remember when he bought them brand new with a Sherwood integrated amp! I went to his house for dinner, and brought these home. I could bring the Chorus ll pair down from my master bedroom and use these as rear channels. I'll recap, brace, and dampen the boxes, but they aren't bad for rock with 15 subs. Glenn.
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On the KG 4.2, what are the favorite woofer replacements? Simply Speakers has a recommended MW 5010 4 ohm with stamped steel basket, and PE has a Delmar series Goldwood gw-10pc-4 with cast aluminum basket.
The GW is on sale for $55 , while the MW is $100. I was also looking at the Faitalpro 10FE200. Thoughts, opinions, ideas? I'll also be recapping and possibly swapping out to Ti diaphragms on the horn driver. Thanks, Glenn.
The GW is on sale for $55 , while the MW is $100. I was also looking at the Faitalpro 10FE200. Thoughts, opinions, ideas? I'll also be recapping and possibly swapping out to Ti diaphragms on the horn driver. Thanks, Glenn.
Claude and Dave, I was fortunate to have a Klipsch member I met through a sale warn me about posting questions on the Super Heresy thread so I quickly edited my post.
I had a question about the 12LFA woofers that Dave and Mookie and had experimented with in the upgrade. I recently bought two Heresy 1's from the original owner and wanted to restore them with new veneer, cane grills, and do the modifications. One pair will have the 12LFA woofers while the other will have the Delta Pro 12A's as I was able to get a pair of 12LFA's for a reasonable price.
As for the 12LFA mods, I wanted to see if anything else was done further than posted on the forum. What I read was:
Was there any other experiments done to make these woofers mate nicely?
Thanks for all the testing and recommendations!
My current Heresy's have:
I had a question about the 12LFA woofers that Dave and Mookie and had experimented with in the upgrade. I recently bought two Heresy 1's from the original owner and wanted to restore them with new veneer, cane grills, and do the modifications. One pair will have the 12LFA woofers while the other will have the Delta Pro 12A's as I was able to get a pair of 12LFA's for a reasonable price.
As for the 12LFA mods, I wanted to see if anything else was done further than posted on the forum. What I read was:
- #1 Keep crossover 100% the same, but swap out the caps with new Dayton's (2uf caps for both) and add the 4 inch Port
- #2 Continue #1 but Change the cap before the auto former to 4uf (or add another 2uf in parallel)
- #3 Continue #1 and #2 but change the inductor coil from 2.5mh to 1.5mh (or unwind and remove 109 inches)
Was there any other experiments done to make these woofers mate nicely?
Thanks for all the testing and recommendations!
My current Heresy's have:
- K-77-M tweeter (Going to wait but eventually ordering the Walnut SMAHLS)
- K-55-V Mid horn
- K-22-EF woofers (swapping with 12LFA one pair then Delta Pro 12A's on others)
Here's the simulation for both in H1 ported to Super. I originally wanted better Midrange, knowing the higher BL woofer (DeltaPRO) would favor that end and I would lose too much bass to get it so I had to port to get the bass back.
So if you look at the black curve, it's bass is fine but it lacks midrange because of the higher cone mass. So you can partially try to compensate by shorting out the 2.5 mH woofer inductor in an E network (in addition, also removing the woofer Capacitor if you have an E2 network). This should bring up the midrange to a closer match for the Delta Pro 12a (K-42 equivalent).
If listening instead of measuring, you should put them side by side and use a Mono Signal to feed R and L channels. You can then use a Balance control on your pre amp if you have one. If not, then you will just have to plug and unplug the speaker in the same Amp channel (I use an AB switch but it's not necesary if you have help (one swaps, one listens).
So if you look at the black curve, it's bass is fine but it lacks midrange because of the higher cone mass. So you can partially try to compensate by shorting out the 2.5 mH woofer inductor in an E network (in addition, also removing the woofer Capacitor if you have an E2 network). This should bring up the midrange to a closer match for the Delta Pro 12a (K-42 equivalent).
If listening instead of measuring, you should put them side by side and use a Mono Signal to feed R and L channels. You can then use a Balance control on your pre amp if you have one. If not, then you will just have to plug and unplug the speaker in the same Amp channel (I use an AB switch but it's not necesary if you have help (one swaps, one listens).
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Quick update on the Heresy’s with the 12LFA’s. Because I have the 2 pairs I decided to complete the mods on one pair before restore while the other pair gets new walnut veneer and cane grills.
On the first pair with 12LFAs:
I recapped the E networks and left the values the same but added a jumper wire to bypass the inductor. Port added with the egg crate foam.
Upon first listen I noticed right away a popping/flapping noise when there is heavy bass or the volume is turned up… I vaguely remember Dave mention having to sand the inside of his woofer cut out to avoid the foam hitting the side. I inspected it and sure enough I could see where it was hitting. I am going to install a 1/2 inch wooden trim. Hoping that is enough to raise them.
12" Subwoofer Speaker Spacer Depth Extender Extending Ring - 1/2" thick - ID: 11 1/8" OD: 12 7/8" - 1 Pair - SSK12K - Stackable - Perfect For Framing Fiberglass Enclosures https://a.co/d/fnt8ZVd
Listening at low level I feel there is a good balance but I’d like to allow the caps to burn in and add that trim piece so I can really listen and see how the two compare with and without the inductor bypassed.
Also, got a pair of Dave’s SMAHLs coming in a couple days.
On the first pair with 12LFAs:
I recapped the E networks and left the values the same but added a jumper wire to bypass the inductor. Port added with the egg crate foam.
Upon first listen I noticed right away a popping/flapping noise when there is heavy bass or the volume is turned up… I vaguely remember Dave mention having to sand the inside of his woofer cut out to avoid the foam hitting the side. I inspected it and sure enough I could see where it was hitting. I am going to install a 1/2 inch wooden trim. Hoping that is enough to raise them.
12" Subwoofer Speaker Spacer Depth Extender Extending Ring - 1/2" thick - ID: 11 1/8" OD: 12 7/8" - 1 Pair - SSK12K - Stackable - Perfect For Framing Fiberglass Enclosures https://a.co/d/fnt8ZVd
Listening at low level I feel there is a good balance but I’d like to allow the caps to burn in and add that trim piece so I can really listen and see how the two compare with and without the inductor bypassed.
Also, got a pair of Dave’s SMAHLs coming in a couple days.
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That was on a Heresy 1 with a K-42 woofer for me and this was in a Super Heresy build. I had to bevel the inside of the woofer cutout so it would not hit. That was with a cloth surround on the woofer. Same issue with my K-43 woofer on my Super MWM set and I am now a firm believer in a spacer ring for them all if I am going to push the excursion.
Never tried the 12LFA's but I have tried the Kappa 12A's in a double woofer bass bin and they are really good there.
Never tried the 12LFA's but I have tried the Kappa 12A's in a double woofer bass bin and they are really good there.
Got it! Thanks Dave. I think the 1/2 inch spacer will solve my problem.
I will get your tweeters and the spacers on Tuesdays and install at the same time.
My other pair will have the Delta Pro 12a’s with the correct crossover mods. I can then compare and learn how to run some sweeps on my minidsp to see the differences.
I will get your tweeters and the spacers on Tuesdays and install at the same time.
My other pair will have the Delta Pro 12a’s with the correct crossover mods. I can then compare and learn how to run some sweeps on my minidsp to see the differences.
You are on the right track. You may want to end up with a 1.2 mH inductor instead of the 2.5 that you short out. Meanwhile, I'll model the LFA to see what happens with that "tweak" to a woofer I did not recommend, but may still work our for you after the mechanical tweaks are done with the spacers.
Thanks Claude. I’ll order a pair of inductors to try. Does the gauge (AWG) matter?
14 gauge is around $32 each but wondering if a higher 18 gauge would be fine around $12 each.
14 gauge is around $32 each but wondering if a higher 18 gauge would be fine around $12 each.
Yes it does. But as long as the DCR is 5% or less of the driver impedance, it's not a big deal. However, to eliminate Hysteresis, I chose the 14 AWG for my Midbass Horns with 8 ohm drivers. DCR went from 0,1 to 0,3, which is tolerable, since mine is horn loaded. YMMV. Try the cheaper one first, like I did, and I'm still not sure my overkill use of air core is audible or simply technically "convinced by reading."
Ok. After looking at all my options it looks like the two 14awg options from Dayton or Erse fit the DCR of 5% or less. The smaller gauge options have higher DCRs out of your recommended range. I am going to go ahead and buy a pair of the below.
Of course the Delta Pro 12As are on back order so I will place a separate order for them later or grab them on Amazon.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...AWG-Perfect-Layer-Inductor-257-322?quantity=1
Of course the Delta Pro 12As are on back order so I will place a separate order for them later or grab them on Amazon.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...AWG-Perfect-Layer-Inductor-257-322?quantity=1
Hey Claude
I've been experimenting with a low pass woofer filter on my Khorns and have been wondering if such a filter would benefit my Heresy I's. It's a severely underdamped filter consisting of a series 1mh inductor and 245uf capacitance across the driver. The increase in voltage really flattens the response up to 400hz vs a 2.4mh series inductor.
Thanks, Mike
Delta Pros are almost Identical to EVM 12L's so you are competing with Guitar Players that want replacment woofers cheaper than the Zack Wild Black Label versions that are overpriced IMHO.
Aw. Makes sense.
I already modified my second pair of crossovers yesterday with the auto former changes and the capacitor before the auto former is now a 4uf.
Going to veneer my cabinets first.
The first pic shows my pair with the LFAs.
I already modified my second pair of crossovers yesterday with the auto former changes and the capacitor before the auto former is now a 4uf.
Going to veneer my cabinets first.
The first pic shows my pair with the LFAs.
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I think if you stick with vanilla E networks with all Dayton capacitors at 2 uF for mid and tweet, to start, you will be able to do better incremental mods. Just change ONLY ONE thing at a time! Here's the simulated curves of the Delta Pro 12a vs the LF you have. Also try lowering the tap while keeping the 2 uF cap as an experiment. Let you fave music be your guide. Saxes, piano, female vocals, etc. should be part of the experiments. Look at the curves to see how much high end of the woofer your are trying to trade for bass with the heavier cone.
