In certain content, you may have sustained passages of 95-100db average spl, 110-115db peaks, as well, a larger amount of passages with <95db average that can render peaks near/reaching the highest peaks. So if you want all of that, to be completely undistorted, the system will be powerful. I am really describing going to the IMAX/Dolby Atmos theater. I have seen transients above 120db. I always sit in the same seats, but obviously the content, theater room, and sound engineer (who ever is adjusting the volume) are variables. With that being said, it really is a good idea to repeat the idea that the drivers being used in homes to try and reach super low distortion or super high efficiency are to be used with safety in mind. Anyone can attest to a time a gain was set undesirably loud during configuration, testing, accidents, what have you. All it takes is an ear close enough, and the gain and sensitivity high enough, for someone's ear to be subject to harmful levels of sound pressure. When this new system is set up, I use the SPL meter on REW constantly. At first it was for the purpose of analysis but it turned into a new form of perception and knowing that I personally want to listen as loud as safely allowable, I'd be wise to always use the SPL meter during listening. 95db is plenty loud, and even that is only safe for a period of time. When the system is fine tuned, I will probably use a limiter on voltage to make sure any accidents that happen, do not result in unsafe exposure. Thankfully that stuff is an option on the PA DSP that I have.
Yeah low distortion system can be cranked quite loud, ear just adapts to it and it doesn't feel that loud, unless you try to talk somebody 😀 One just wants to turn it louder and louder because it sound better and better, until it's really too loud, smile on the face reaction.
Distorting system gets louder perceptually, although it probably isn't because distortion limits it, and makes you want to turn the system down instead, with facial expression from disgust to fear, no smily faces around 😀
I bet its because we're adding non musical content to the signal.... A certain group of Tube amp users love the Thd they create.
IIRC thats a proven psychological phenomena.
Who knew going deaf would sound so good
Yeah, interesting bit is the rraction sound makes, other is engaging while the other is repellling. Auditory system triggers a reaction. So, if one wants to listen music and maintain attention to it and be comfortable, enjoy it, then its useful to know that it's better not to trigger repelling reaction, but the engaging one. If one doesn't pay any attention to this stuff, what reactions sound trigger within, then anything goes. At least for short periods of time until the unconscious robot within us reaches the volume pot.
Yes, the louder the more linear our brains perceive the sound. Hence the loudness button on some amps to be used with lower gains. I think it is a bigger challenge to design a system that sounds dynamic and lively at low levels, than a system that sounds good only at higher levels. I have heard this quite often with "hi-end" bigger systems. At low levels, horns shine on the dynamics part i.m.o.
Who the hell is interested in building/diy a speaker "that only sounds good at higher levels"?
I don´t talk about PA or concerts.
And since all dynamics are percentages of volume, the dynamics will never be there enough at low sound levels.
Of course, dynamics are relative to the played volume, but many systems lack more dynamics at low volumes than at higher volume and sound a bit lifeless at low volume (apart from the loudness curve our ears have). Just my experience, your mileage may vary. Maybe a loudness correction when listening to low spl music is not such a bad idea for some systems. Psychoacoustics is a complicated business and I admit I am only an intermediate on this subject.
@jawen To find a common ground: maybe it has something to do with at which loudness a particular system is tuned. If you tune to sound good at loud volume, you may experience a lack of liveliness due to the Munson-Fletcher curves of your hearing when playing at low spl. If you tune at low volume settings, the system may sound too harsh when cranked up. So it seems good practice to me, to tune your system at the volumes you mostly play and get a bit of a leeway.
Understand what you are after 👍
But i never "tune in" or eq my systems, i always want to have as few components as possible. (not regarding to passive xoverparts)
It used to be cdplayer-preamp-amp-speakers, now its preamp-amp-speakers. (never used subwoofers exept movies)
Diden´t use any "loudness" buttons at the 80s & 90s either 🙂
Loudness use to be "an sertain set eq curve", and maby some times "some people" like it (if they don´t play to high), so maby some needed it.
Im against all eq, DSP and subwoofer things, because i think its importent to "get it right" without it for real high quality sound that leaves you feelings.
The "beauty" in hifi and hi end system speaker, is the small different tone characters different drivers can have and how the passive xover works with just that driver in combination with the other drivers.
Also believes that you need stronger amplifiers than you think and that no amplifier can be too "big/strong"
Less is more, I agree. With "tuning" I meant "voicing" the speakers and other parts to your liking, when you finish the build (crossover tweaking etc). Once done properly, ideally there is no need to change it. The "voicing" can be done at the volume you usually listen, so you have an optimum at that volume.
We're (almost) completely on the same page.
Required amp power is directly related to loudspeaker efficiency, more specifically compliance/damping.
For you guys who like calculators
deepseek.com
My son told me about it last night, I have been using AI to calculate ideas and run numbers etc. I use Gemini (googles ai) primarily, they have what I think is an obvious advantage in training data. Gemini helped get this Kerf cutting methodology correct, on the first try, which in hindsight is a miracle. I ran the idea through Deep seek and its formula was obviously incorrect, suggesting 5" kerf spacing, obviously wrong. I've been using it today to brainstorm ideas and it (DeepSeek) seems to be pretty smart regardless it getting the Kerf Formula wrong. And even then,, it knew, after I told it what I had to do in reality to achieve the goal, it referenced the approach (created by Gemini) to "Luthier-grade kerfing: Ultra-precise, dense cuts (often 1/8”-1/4” spacing) in instrument-making to bend hardwoods. Balances structural integrity with radical curvature. Requires veneer-thin retention (~1/16”) and post-bend reinforcement".... so it knows something.... whatever.... I'm using it, and it seems like it is really intelligent, I only described the 18"s in the slot and slot details, and its nit picking things like particle velocity, "Psychoacoustic smoothing requires asymmetric slot walls to break up coherent reflections.” - which is rudimentary for you old guys, but I mean I just spent a good week on slot wall design ideas before it really sank in that the key was asymmetry. Take with a grain of salt as usual. I have not tried coding with it yet but it has some inspiring ideas so I see it useful for now. It suggest testing mechanical resonance of the slot by putting the woofers out of phase? It seems to be thinking pretty deeply... For those of you who like such things, now you know.
I called out DeepSense about the largeness of its error for the kerfing, and its saying that I left out the detail that it was Baltic Birch.... Im thinking ok whatever. Ai can be very helpful but its not perfect. Measure twice, as they say.
Oh ya, DeepSeek is free at the moment.
deepseek.com
My son told me about it last night, I have been using AI to calculate ideas and run numbers etc. I use Gemini (googles ai) primarily, they have what I think is an obvious advantage in training data. Gemini helped get this Kerf cutting methodology correct, on the first try, which in hindsight is a miracle. I ran the idea through Deep seek and its formula was obviously incorrect, suggesting 5" kerf spacing, obviously wrong. I've been using it today to brainstorm ideas and it (DeepSeek) seems to be pretty smart regardless it getting the Kerf Formula wrong. And even then,, it knew, after I told it what I had to do in reality to achieve the goal, it referenced the approach (created by Gemini) to "Luthier-grade kerfing: Ultra-precise, dense cuts (often 1/8”-1/4” spacing) in instrument-making to bend hardwoods. Balances structural integrity with radical curvature. Requires veneer-thin retention (~1/16”) and post-bend reinforcement".... so it knows something.... whatever.... I'm using it, and it seems like it is really intelligent, I only described the 18"s in the slot and slot details, and its nit picking things like particle velocity, "Psychoacoustic smoothing requires asymmetric slot walls to break up coherent reflections.” - which is rudimentary for you old guys, but I mean I just spent a good week on slot wall design ideas before it really sank in that the key was asymmetry. Take with a grain of salt as usual. I have not tried coding with it yet but it has some inspiring ideas so I see it useful for now. It suggest testing mechanical resonance of the slot by putting the woofers out of phase? It seems to be thinking pretty deeply... For those of you who like such things, now you know.
I called out DeepSense about the largeness of its error for the kerfing, and its saying that I left out the detail that it was Baltic Birch.... Im thinking ok whatever. Ai can be very helpful but its not perfect. Measure twice, as they say.
Oh ya, DeepSeek is free at the moment.
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This is supposed to show the mounting holes versus the drivers... The shaded parts of the woofers represent the mounting holes, they are smaller than the woofers themselves. The slot has to be taller than the woofers are so there's some room for a slightly expanding line from the mounting hole to the mouth. In the actual construction I am not sure how this will play out but I will try n make the best out of what I can. I am not an expert, far from it.
Are these reasonable for a domestic environment? It seems you'd want to sit 20 feet away to get coherent sound. I had JBL 4722's in my house and it made me move my couch from regular position of about 8' from the speaker to a new spot of about 11' away to get the sound to meld.
