I have tested the 219 at home, but only With speakers of 95dB ish sensitivity. It is an excellent amplifier. Glad to hear that Line Magnetic managed to build a noise free 845 SET! And if it is quiet now, and you will be using passive filters for mids and highs, it will probably be noise free.
Your setup is spectacular... WE300B for driver tubes!
Your setup is spectacular... WE300B for driver tubes!
I have been looking at my solutions below 150hz. Now, afaik Cessaro crosses around 140hz and they have their bass units p4 or p8. What are these units, are they 1/4 wave t-line bass units?
Is it possible for a 1/4wave t-line to play as low as 35hz with a Tad 1601a or b (97,5db efficient, 28hz fs) and extend to 140hz flat and without eq? That is their claim, no active low end boost, and very detailed sound. Now, they use at least 4, that would bring them a few hz lower and a 3 db more output with each cab. Still this would mean each of these cabs are at least playing down to 35hz and around 96db efficient (cessaro says 105db efficiency in total).
Is it possible for a 1/4wave t-line to play as low as 35hz with a Tad 1601a or b (97,5db efficient, 28hz fs) and extend to 140hz flat and without eq? That is their claim, no active low end boost, and very detailed sound. Now, they use at least 4, that would bring them a few hz lower and a 3 db more output with each cab. Still this would mean each of these cabs are at least playing down to 35hz and around 96db efficient (cessaro says 105db efficiency in total).
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Has anyone tuned their 100 hz tractrix with a back chamber to 100hz or even lower? How does the group delay effects change? If this can be done, and does not create audibly negligible problems, I can have one less piece in the system. It would be easier to be coherent and easier to be positioned.
I hope I won't loose my mind before I can finish this project! Here comes the latest revision. I want to keep the whole speaker under 2 metres. Higher than that, and the space requirements are becoming a little too much! So here it goes from 100hz to 35.000hz...
100hz - 600hz - Cf 110 Tractrix (1000mm) - Supravox 285-2000 with compression chamber
600hz - 2400hz - Cf 200 Tractrix (600mm) - TAD TD-4001
2400hz - 9600hz - cf1000 JMLC (195mm) - TAD TD-2001
9600hz - 35.000hz - Fostex T500amkII (99mm)
With this setup it will be around 2000mm high which is my limit. I don't know if I should play my tapped horn up to 100hz, build another tapped horn to even out its response or add another solution in between tapped and cf110 Tractrix. I will not choose what to do before hearing how the compression chamber effects the sound of the upperbass channel.
100hz - 600hz - Cf 110 Tractrix (1000mm) - Supravox 285-2000 with compression chamber
600hz - 2400hz - Cf 200 Tractrix (600mm) - TAD TD-4001
2400hz - 9600hz - cf1000 JMLC (195mm) - TAD TD-2001
9600hz - 35.000hz - Fostex T500amkII (99mm)
With this setup it will be around 2000mm high which is my limit. I don't know if I should play my tapped horn up to 100hz, build another tapped horn to even out its response or add another solution in between tapped and cf110 Tractrix. I will not choose what to do before hearing how the compression chamber effects the sound of the upperbass channel.
Sounds very good, looking forward to your progress 🙂 are you going with field coil or regular magnet for the Supravox?
It will be the alnico one.
Do you guys think I should put the jmlc 1000 or a 600 tractrix for the 2001 covering 2400 hz to 9600 hz
I am curious what was so egregious about TD4001 in 180 hz Tractrix? I am not being defensive, but genuinely curious if you or limono could describe why you did not care for the sound.
In JMLC 270 (plastic Autotech) it sounded neutral with no horn coloration whatsoever. The major downside was the amount of vertical real estate that it took up, which was why I was considering Tractrix.
I never heard TD 4001 in a big horn and as I mentioned Kevin Brooks told me that it sounded splendid in his 180hz tractrix horn. I only used it in Edgar 290hz, 340hz, Jabo kh55 kugleweelen horns also Audiolab 400hz . I think the really big horn suppress 4001 resonances peaks and takes advantage of the robust low end of TD 4001. What I didn't like about 4001 was that it just pushed the sound forward and sounded relatively flat and I could not listen to it more than 30 min without being exhausted. First impressions were excellent and the sound was thrilling , especially with Jabo KH55 horn which was the best of the lot with the TAD but after short session with with relatively low volume I had a feeling somebody is sticking needles in my ear. Also the music
lacked color (coloration?) . I would compare it to the washed out sound of a lot of modern Hi-End speakers which leaves the aftertaste similar to chewing a dry acrylic paint.
Also , I heard plenty of demos where TAD 4001 was used with TH4001 horn and it was never a positive experience although some people swear the horn is great with 2" JBL drivers.
To make the whole story short I simply lacked the skill and dedication to make
TD4001 work for me and at the end of my affair with the driver I developed personal , subjective prejudice and mild hatriot towards it which disabled all desire to work with it. I have to add that my samples were in flawless like new condition with low hrs in non PA duty.
Rgrds, L
I get what you are saying about music lacking color, I heard similar thing. If I had to take a guess in JMLC's measurement of it in some Avant-garde horn it had very little 2nd and 3rd harmonic. I too favor a bit of tonal color to give acoustic instruments a bit of vividness. Actually I heard the same thing with Radian 745 (unsure if it was Be diaphragm) in the same horn, but to a bit greater extent. And latter was harsh in upper midrange, ie alto sax higher regions.
Over last few months I've had a change of heart about the system plans and would rather live with a smaller system, ie Onken 360l plus 2 way horns. Not many large format compression drivers that have wide bandwidth 🙁
I would forget wide bandwidth with horns altogether and kind of lean on the concept that 2 way system with horn channel is much more difficult to realize than 3 way which is quite a bit more difficult than 4 way which is not as easy to implement as 5 way . It is complete opposition of direct radiator based speakers. It is only when one is trying to "rape' the horn to get more "bandwidth" for his money the trouble arrives.
Yes, the correct way of implementing the horns is keeping each one operate for 3 octaves. However, there's another problem arising with this approach. They become towers and the distance between sound sources are widened! You need to listen from a proper distance for coherence.
No doubt, but I've heard exceptions. One of the best commercial speakers I've heard was JBL DD66000 (forget about hearing it with the Levinson electronics they insist on using at shows), runs the high frequency driver from 800-20k. Completely natural and no horn coloration. IIRC that TD4001 was 700-7k in the JMLC 270, again no overt horn sound. The Radian was crossed much lower and still didn't sound as good.
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It would be great if it was possible to get JBL engineers to design the crossovers for us! They are very good in that department.
Sure , I can easily agree with that. Sierra /Brooks two way horn speaker was just that -Altec 416 in BR box and Tad 4001 in huge wooden tractrix horn. How where adjacent channels implemented?
Was the depth of imaging and source identification good ? I bet it was beaming like a mofo and slight turn of the head caused total shift of the balance from left to right.
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Ok! I am going step by step. I am ordering the cf110 tractrix and cf200 tractrix from Autotech as of today. I am also buying a pair of Supravox 285-2000. I will stop buying for now and use my own BMS 4592nd-mid 16ohm cd's for the cf200 and my Fostex t500amkII's.
By doing this I wont spend a small fortune on TAD drivers (4001 and 2001) and wont buy the JMLC 600. I will direct this money and energy into the bass unit below the 110cf. I want to cross it around 160hz. I have a tapped horn for 20 to 80. I would rather use it for 20 to 40 or 60hz. So now is the time for me to actually find the "best" (most suitable) solution for 40 or 60hz to 160hz.
What are people recommending and why? I know some of you have SLOB systems, some people have bass arrays some have scoop horns. What would be ideal to go below the tractrix bass.
By doing this I wont spend a small fortune on TAD drivers (4001 and 2001) and wont buy the JMLC 600. I will direct this money and energy into the bass unit below the 110cf. I want to cross it around 160hz. I have a tapped horn for 20 to 80. I would rather use it for 20 to 40 or 60hz. So now is the time for me to actually find the "best" (most suitable) solution for 40 or 60hz to 160hz.
What are people recommending and why? I know some of you have SLOB systems, some people have bass arrays some have scoop horns. What would be ideal to go below the tractrix bass.
Hi Kodomo,
If the cf110 Tractrix horn with the Supravox driver is positioned on the floor it may able to reach lower down in frequency than 150 cycles. IIRC Romy's 140 Hz tractrix with the Fane Studio 8M reached down to around 115 Hz. At least I would try it out to see how far down in frequency you can get, before I would make final decision on what to use below the Supravox.
Best regards
Peter
If the cf110 Tractrix horn with the Supravox driver is positioned on the floor it may able to reach lower down in frequency than 150 cycles. IIRC Romy's 140 Hz tractrix with the Fane Studio 8M reached down to around 115 Hz. At least I would try it out to see how far down in frequency you can get, before I would make final decision on what to use below the Supravox.
Best regards
Peter
People also report poor performance of Cessaro's at audio shows. Not that audio shows provide good environments, but the sound character can be heard. Last time i heard a TAD 4001 was in original TAD Pioneer speakers with original TAD radial horns at a audio enthusiasts studio in Hong Kong. The harshness in the upper end was immediately detectable, even in a fully treated room. Not for me...... But that is not something only inherent of TAD's. I have yet to hear a midrange horn that does not fatigue after half an hour of listening......
I have gone through all you try to do. Had also the BMS4592nd here.
The ideal is to go with Beyma 12p80nd/TPL150, and a bass array below 50hz. The 12p80nd beats my lower midrange 120hz horn with Fane Studio 8m by far. No horn coloration, wide dispersion with good matching to the TPL150, and speed and transients are just awesome. And no problem of integration in the 150hz range. But one speaker transmitting almost all the voice range. So far better integration. Simpler is better.
I already have the BMS, so I will use it to start with. I will try to get different drivers to try hopefully.
@angeloitacare
Do you use the 12p80nd with your front loaded horn, or did you come up with another solution. The supravox simulates quite flat up to 800-900hz region. I heard that driver and really liked its voicing as well. So I am hoping to use it from 160hz to 800hz and then cross to the BMS. I will hear and then decide on the upper part. It may be different.
@PK
I don't want to voice the upper bass horn down to its cutoff, I don't want phasing, group delay problems there. That is why I want to find a more suitable solution for 60hz - 160hz. Otherwise, it seems I can build a back chamber and drive the horn down to 80hz and cross them to my tapped horns.
I already have a klipschorn that can cover this band, but it also lacks the sound I look for around that region. I cross it much lower than stock klipschorn and have a better woofer in it with a more suitable crossover for my needs, very good but still not what I am opting for. That is why I am changing it to a flh and willing to divide it different channels.
@angeloitacare
Do you use the 12p80nd with your front loaded horn, or did you come up with another solution. The supravox simulates quite flat up to 800-900hz region. I heard that driver and really liked its voicing as well. So I am hoping to use it from 160hz to 800hz and then cross to the BMS. I will hear and then decide on the upper part. It may be different.
@PK
I don't want to voice the upper bass horn down to its cutoff, I don't want phasing, group delay problems there. That is why I want to find a more suitable solution for 60hz - 160hz. Otherwise, it seems I can build a back chamber and drive the horn down to 80hz and cross them to my tapped horns.
I already have a klipschorn that can cover this band, but it also lacks the sound I look for around that region. I cross it much lower than stock klipschorn and have a better woofer in it with a more suitable crossover for my needs, very good but still not what I am opting for. That is why I am changing it to a flh and willing to divide it different channels.
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