Open mic last night was a gas. Always a pleasant surprise when the level of entertainment provided by random people / mere mortals is both good and free. I've recently switched from sitting to standing to play and had a good night with my three songs. I "stole" another performer's song "Magnolia" by JJ Cale; I thought "I can do that" after seeing the fellow play it last week. Learned to play it this week and did it last night. 4 whole chords - counting the chorus! My practicing is starting to pay off, but I have a big glass ceiling to break through...
Great to hear about open mic going so well JJ. Sometimes they are just OK, and sometimes they are a great jam! That is what makes them so fun, the unknown...keep jamming!
I did test the new Carvin with two mag pickups, works great, but my wife is having a stay up late night, so can't rock tonight.
I tried, but she was like that is really really loud. A good sign! It did not last more than two minutes! 🤣 I can't judge the tone yet, hopefully tomorrow!
Art - new "Frequency Data" attached, what do you think? Let me have it!
It has been just over a week, but no response from Acoustic Guitar Magazine yet. I see from online comments, they are slow to respond. I mean they are a pretty small company, my guess is just trying to survive as a small magazine, but of course they have a digit footprint also. I like the mag myself, but some people really give them **** online, a struggle for them is my guess. If they do not want to showcase, I will buy a full page ad, not cheap! I will do pics and info from my website, and the pic below. Comments?
I tried, but she was like that is really really loud. A good sign! It did not last more than two minutes! 🤣 I can't judge the tone yet, hopefully tomorrow!
Art - new "Frequency Data" attached, what do you think? Let me have it!
It has been just over a week, but no response from Acoustic Guitar Magazine yet. I see from online comments, they are slow to respond. I mean they are a pretty small company, my guess is just trying to survive as a small magazine, but of course they have a digit footprint also. I like the mag myself, but some people really give them **** online, a struggle for them is my guess. If they do not want to showcase, I will buy a full page ad, not cheap! I will do pics and info from my website, and the pic below. Comments?
Joe,
So your FHAG still has +5dB more output at 20Hz than the 81Hz low E 😉 ?
Looks like the same random screen captures you have been posting since you got REW running.
Still think the same as when you have posted them before, they don't provide useful or realistic information.
Art
Thank you Art for the honest feedback. Yes it is the same screen captures, not sure what you mean about random. I just added more written notes to explain to people not familiar with dB and frequency chart info. Do you think Frequency Data is a better chart description than Frequency Response?
I can get different results of course, depending on what song I am playing, and how much emphasis I put on different strings and at different frets.
I definitely play differently with the horns on and the horns off, because there is so much power with them on, you are going to handle the instrument differently. I know it is not a 100% apples to apples comparison, but it is for standard guitar vs. horns off, and you can generally see that.
Every time I measure the guitar with horns on, I get generally the same result, depending on the song. The mids are about 25 dB higher, and the lows to the left rise at a greater magnitude, and the highs to the right rise at a greater magnitude, every time. This is what I want, and I can hear it very easily. This is what I am trying to show.
I think most people who see this will think OK I get that, pretty cool. Now you of course are going to dig deeper. I am not sure why the 20 Hz is so strong, undertones? Plus the noise floor is rising at 20 Hz, something going on there, not sure what it might be.
Anyway I find this data to be both useful and realistic, I can hear it very easily when I play, especially when I turn the horns off, wow what a difference.
JJ - I tried the Carvin with two mag pickups, and man it sure has power, although my drivers can not support it up to 50 watts per channel. The size is wonderful, but man I can not for the life of me get a good tone from the high E #1 string and B #2 string. It is way too much tinny town for me. Just sounds to much like an electric guitar. I don't really like a piezo by itself, but when you pair one with a mag pickup, it sure does sound great, at least in my crazy guitar with horns and the Roland acoustic guitar amp.
Last night I played Little Martha through my horns in open E tuning, and boy did I have a blast. I will admit finger picking on my guitar with horns off is not its strength, but turn the horns on and fingerpicking becomes a completely different animal. You barley touch the strings and get great power and tone. Plus when I do the harmonics during the song, it just rings like a bell. Of course I can't play anywhere near the level of Dickey Betts and Duane Allman, but at least I learned one of my all time favorite songs!
I can get different results of course, depending on what song I am playing, and how much emphasis I put on different strings and at different frets.
I definitely play differently with the horns on and the horns off, because there is so much power with them on, you are going to handle the instrument differently. I know it is not a 100% apples to apples comparison, but it is for standard guitar vs. horns off, and you can generally see that.
Every time I measure the guitar with horns on, I get generally the same result, depending on the song. The mids are about 25 dB higher, and the lows to the left rise at a greater magnitude, and the highs to the right rise at a greater magnitude, every time. This is what I want, and I can hear it very easily. This is what I am trying to show.
I think most people who see this will think OK I get that, pretty cool. Now you of course are going to dig deeper. I am not sure why the 20 Hz is so strong, undertones? Plus the noise floor is rising at 20 Hz, something going on there, not sure what it might be.
Anyway I find this data to be both useful and realistic, I can hear it very easily when I play, especially when I turn the horns off, wow what a difference.
JJ - I tried the Carvin with two mag pickups, and man it sure has power, although my drivers can not support it up to 50 watts per channel. The size is wonderful, but man I can not for the life of me get a good tone from the high E #1 string and B #2 string. It is way too much tinny town for me. Just sounds to much like an electric guitar. I don't really like a piezo by itself, but when you pair one with a mag pickup, it sure does sound great, at least in my crazy guitar with horns and the Roland acoustic guitar amp.
Last night I played Little Martha through my horns in open E tuning, and boy did I have a blast. I will admit finger picking on my guitar with horns off is not its strength, but turn the horns on and fingerpicking becomes a completely different animal. You barley touch the strings and get great power and tone. Plus when I do the harmonics during the song, it just rings like a bell. Of course I can't play anywhere near the level of Dickey Betts and Duane Allman, but at least I learned one of my all time favorite songs!
If you're going to attempt to solve what the best amp I can put into my guitar, you'll need a means to characterize at least frequency response wise the amplifiers you'd like to consider. The Roland has a sound you like; what about it is relaxing the tinny sound you're getting from the Carvin?
You'll need a speaker load; usually a 4 or 8 Ohm resistor along with a voltage divider; two higher value resistors, to get the signal back into REW from the amplifiers through an ADC box, like a Focusrite. Then you can measure the FR of each amp and compare scientifically.
I'll assume the Carvin amp is flat 20 - 20k, while the Roland; I'd bet those designers knew there's absolutely no reason to go out to 20k in a guitar amp. It might have some frequency equalization built in, even with the tone controls all set flat. Why doesnt the Carvin do that too? Who knows; cheaper to make without it - saves a couple of capacitors; easy to assume some preamp pedal driving it has that part. Which I why I wanted to hear your impression of the Roland driving the Carvin from its effect loop output, recording line output or headphone output - whatever its got putting out the input signal, besides the speaker output.
Your FR chart may benefit from elimination of the frequency extremes at both left and right. IMHO, no reason to go down to 20, no reason to go up to 20k. No one who plays guitar hears up that high, unless you're some 13 year old whiz kid shredder; who's ears wont last that long up there playing in a band. 20 is just maybe thumps on the strings/body or your home environment and its heating airflow equipment.
From A.I. (my new friend that I love and fear) - In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hard-core" pornography, he said "I know it when I see it", which of course became a very popular phrase.
Same for me when it comes to music. I know it when I hear it.
Know what? Beautiful sparkle on the high strings, especially up the fretboard, you know, not tinny. Little Martha on my guitar with horns on is a perfect example of this.
Warm beautiful bass on the low strings, not a muddy sound. I have that also, thankfully.
I like data very much, but "I know it when I hear it" goes a very long way.
JJ - that beautiful little Carvin is great for electric guitars (which of course it was made for). It ain't going to happen for my guitar. Lord knows I tried!
"I know it when I hear it" is really a very scientific method, don't blow it off as somebody that does not have enough data. Very careful observation is about as scientific as it gets!
Same for me when it comes to music. I know it when I hear it.
Know what? Beautiful sparkle on the high strings, especially up the fretboard, you know, not tinny. Little Martha on my guitar with horns on is a perfect example of this.
Warm beautiful bass on the low strings, not a muddy sound. I have that also, thankfully.
I like data very much, but "I know it when I hear it" goes a very long way.
JJ - that beautiful little Carvin is great for electric guitars (which of course it was made for). It ain't going to happen for my guitar. Lord knows I tried!
"I know it when I hear it" is really a very scientific method, don't blow it off as somebody that does not have enough data. Very careful observation is about as scientific as it gets!
Yes, but the data is from a random (or cherry-picked) time event.
From what you have written, you still have not mixed the separately equalized magnetic pickup and piezo transducer output through both channels of the Carvin. You also have not used any pre-amp compression.
A good amp will amplify everything put into it equally. You need to control the harmonic balance of what you are amplifying with the frequency response of your speakers in combination with the acoustic sound of the guitar to get out of "tinny town".
Thanks very much gents...I see what you are saying Art, the FHAG data is from a different date, that is correct. I show that, not trying to hide anything, looking for good marketing material, but of course it must be real data from my guitar. What I really want to do, if I get the chance, is give the guitar to an interested party and say: play and measure the living daylights out of this guitar, and compare it to any guitar you want. I am pretty sure you will not be disappointed.
I will backtrack on the Carvin and try your ideas JJ and Art, still alive. I was just frustrated at the output, thought it would be better, still on my list. Man the size is just perfect, so definitely worth trying more. Plus I may need to upgrade my drivers for more power. While I really like my current 3" drivers, I know there are other 3" drivers with more power, more testing required.
Last night was another Little Marth night, what a blast, can't put the damn guitar down really, a great sign!
Tuners are on the neck, starting the Rosewood fingerboard and fretting for guitar #2. My Sitka Spruce soundboard is ready to install, and I bought a very nice piece of Red Cedar for the soundboard on guitar #3. It never ends, thankfully!
I will backtrack on the Carvin and try your ideas JJ and Art, still alive. I was just frustrated at the output, thought it would be better, still on my list. Man the size is just perfect, so definitely worth trying more. Plus I may need to upgrade my drivers for more power. While I really like my current 3" drivers, I know there are other 3" drivers with more power, more testing required.
Last night was another Little Marth night, what a blast, can't put the damn guitar down really, a great sign!
Tuners are on the neck, starting the Rosewood fingerboard and fretting for guitar #2. My Sitka Spruce soundboard is ready to install, and I bought a very nice piece of Red Cedar for the soundboard on guitar #3. It never ends, thankfully!
One 1/4 note is a different time event, you don't need to wait for a different date for it to look and sound different..
I'd guess there should be no, zero acoustic emissions at 20 Hz from any acoustic guitar, or bass for that matter. 20 Hz is really, really low; if present, it's more likely coming from some other source within the environment the recording is made in. I think Art is pointing out that the level you're seeing is a distraction from what you're trying to show, being at a greater level than the frequencies that "make sense" coming from an acoustic guitar. Which shouldnt be anything less than ~80 - unless you're doing a drop D tuning or something.
Now pounding on the soundboard, perhaps as you strum, can generate "thumps" which can contain in an analysis low frequencies. But you're not trying to show what soundboard thumps sound like, you're trying to show what the horns sound like - amplitude wise. By design length, their output will fall off well above 20 Hz. They cant contribute anything at that frequency one could almost say by definition, so why show it?
What I meant is any RTA screen capture only represents that particular real time, not what was played 1/4 note or second or hour or day before or after.
We can speculate that the 20-70Hz output was from a passing or parked truck or something else not related to the FHAG, but it's presence just casts doubt on the noise floor of the entire spectrum at the time of capture.
Thank you gents, I think I will try a new REW capture, it has been some time. Same song, same timeframe, standard quality acoustic guitar, folded horns off, folded horns on, likely cut the bottom end off at 30 or 40 Hz, and just note 20 Hz being lowest sound humans can hear.
The post below is from 2018, and I know it is from a nylon string classical guitarist, but it captures how I feel about steel string acoustic guitars, effects, and more power needed. I love the last line in the comment!
The post below is from 2018, and I know it is from a nylon string classical guitarist, but it captures how I feel about steel string acoustic guitars, effects, and more power needed. I love the last line in the comment!
It makes the guitar louder. Their latest incarnation has a looping function built in and two internal body driving transducers, in order to get the looper playback just as loud as the guitar ordinarily played. Mr Winkler is forgetting that there are many players outside the "stodgy bunch" who simply like the sound of nylon strung guitars, but play in a more ordinary (strum, fingerpick) sense versus the hyper articulate as goal way classical players strive for.
Most everyone I know from my open-mic experience has a nylon in their collection, just for the sound of it. They're primarily steel string players. I like nylon guitars for the sound, plus the neck width at the nut fits my fat clumsy fingers a bit better. Guitars are strange; they are like shoes only coming in at size 8 or 12; sometimes but rarely you might find a 10; otherwise you personal hand size must adapt to the standard neck widths being built. Like having your foot size "just adapt" to one of three shoe available sizes...
Most everyone I know from my open-mic experience has a nylon in their collection, just for the sound of it. They're primarily steel string players. I like nylon guitars for the sound, plus the neck width at the nut fits my fat clumsy fingers a bit better. Guitars are strange; they are like shoes only coming in at size 8 or 12; sometimes but rarely you might find a 10; otherwise you personal hand size must adapt to the standard neck widths being built. Like having your foot size "just adapt" to one of three shoe available sizes...
Cutting the bottom off will bring the noise floor into question.
Rather than playing a song again, why not play each string individually, and a few open chords.
As far as 20Hz being the "lowest sound humans can hear", that's simply not true.
Extending the equal loudness contours downward from the usual 16 or 20Hz, it's easy to see that very low frequencies simply need more level to hear.
By comparison, the upper range is a far more steep curve, most average adults high frequency reaches a "brick wall" within ~1/3 octave, somewhere between 16-20kHz.
Back around 1933 when Fletcher and Munson investigated equal loudness by comparing tones at different frequencies to 1000Hz, the headphones could not reproduce much below 30Hz without the harmonics being louder than the fundamentals, nor did they provide much level above 10kHz or so.
Before any harmonic distortion is present at an audible level, I can easily hear ~10 Hz through Sony MD-7506 headphones, though some "humans" may not.
It is interesting to test your own hearing and see how it compares to the "average".
This test makes it easy to chart:
https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html
It has been both informative and disheartening to "see" the progression of hearing loss over the past four decades.
Art
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Art the lowest I could hear was 30 Hz at -66 dB, not bad. The highest I could hear was 16,000 Hz at 0 dB, and I am surprised I could hear that (just barely), I think I am pretty much toast above 15,000 Hz now.
JJ - I do like the sound of a classical guitar when a great guitar player is running the fretboard, beautiful tone, but a little on the lame side for power. Personally I don't like to play a classical guitar myself, but I have no doubt it is due to my lack of experience with classical guitars and classical music. I think the guys that make them sound great are a breed above rock and roll guitar players, but I bet they are just a little jealous of the power steel strings can provide.
I have done REW with just a chord and noted dB levels at each specific guitar string frequency. While the two guys on this thread that are run the engineering department like it 🤣 (and I like it from a technical point of view) the marketing department is on the fence.
I do like the REW data I have now, but understand the cherry picking. Even though it is all completely legit, more direct comparisons would indeed be helpful, especially to the eagle eyed amongst us...and anybody that would be interested in buying the IP would very likely be in this crowd.
I will have some fun with data this weekend, I hope. I do enjoy that software, was a real game changed when you guys introduced me to REW.
Snapshot below of neck for guitar #2, maple neck, rosewood fingerboard, Martin 25.34 scale, 16" radius frets, what could go wrong? 😉
JJ - I do like the sound of a classical guitar when a great guitar player is running the fretboard, beautiful tone, but a little on the lame side for power. Personally I don't like to play a classical guitar myself, but I have no doubt it is due to my lack of experience with classical guitars and classical music. I think the guys that make them sound great are a breed above rock and roll guitar players, but I bet they are just a little jealous of the power steel strings can provide.
I have done REW with just a chord and noted dB levels at each specific guitar string frequency. While the two guys on this thread that are run the engineering department like it 🤣 (and I like it from a technical point of view) the marketing department is on the fence.
I do like the REW data I have now, but understand the cherry picking. Even though it is all completely legit, more direct comparisons would indeed be helpful, especially to the eagle eyed amongst us...and anybody that would be interested in buying the IP would very likely be in this crowd.
I will have some fun with data this weekend, I hope. I do enjoy that software, was a real game changed when you guys introduced me to REW.
Snapshot below of neck for guitar #2, maple neck, rosewood fingerboard, Martin 25.34 scale, 16" radius frets, what could go wrong? 😉
I got busted on big volume last night, my wife woke up: turn it down!
I wimped out tonight, don't need to get busted two nights in a row, so I only recorded below, pretty much the same as earlier, good to see the consistency. Next two weekends are Christmas events, so may be awhile for new total REW. I was a little rusty with the software, but all came back pretty easy, stay tuned!
Website notes: I have (10) hits from Russia, a few from China, Turkey, Ukraine, Germany, Greece, and of course many from U.S. - fun!
I wimped out tonight, don't need to get busted two nights in a row, so I only recorded below, pretty much the same as earlier, good to see the consistency. Next two weekends are Christmas events, so may be awhile for new total REW. I was a little rusty with the software, but all came back pretty easy, stay tuned!
Website notes: I have (10) hits from Russia, a few from China, Turkey, Ukraine, Germany, Greece, and of course many from U.S. - fun!