After a while, the hole gets plugged up with pickups! You should try building an "f" hole top (since they're quickly interchangeable) put the dual pickups to look like an ES335. You could even mount them to the separator board and have them stick up through the top, so the light and breezy top structure doesnt have to carry their weight. There's an interesting top bracing rethink, to pull that off!
Some acoustic pickups are buffered, that is they have a battery and can drive the cable / high level amp input much better than just a bare coil. Something like https://www.fishman.com/portfolio/rare-earth-magnetic-soundhole-pickup/. I see they also have one with a microphone that you may have some luck with.
Man, an infinite number of things to do and only one guy! I'd love to see the Dylan movie...
JJ - I really, really like that idea. I love F holes and I already use the Fishman pickup in your link, by far my favorite, I use the Humbucking version. I have tried the pickup with a mic also, and it would be fantastic if that could work, but a feedback nightmare, in my experience.
Ever since Art turned me on to the Helpinstill piano magnetic pickup, and I actually heard it live on a grand piano, I am a magnetic pickup man for sure. My only beef is if it starts to sound less acoustic, and more electric. I will try tonight, with two of them. I would absolutely love to ditch the piezo pickup, I can't stand those damn things. I know they have their place, but everybody I talk to uses them because the need to, not because they like them.
I can build another Sitka Spruce soundboard, and mount the pickups as you note, and use F holes. I have finally become a little better at building soundboards, so not a problem now. Plus I can make them by hand, no CNC required.
I really want to build an archtop acoustic guitar with F holes, but I would need to redesign and CNC cut my neck, so a much bigger deal. Plus archtops require much more skill to make than a flat top. I am not there yet, but some day!
I think black screws look better than stainless steel, but still dicey at best!
Ever since Art turned me on to the Helpinstill piano magnetic pickup, and I actually heard it live on a grand piano, I am a magnetic pickup man for sure. My only beef is if it starts to sound less acoustic, and more electric. I will try tonight, with two of them. I would absolutely love to ditch the piezo pickup, I can't stand those damn things. I know they have their place, but everybody I talk to uses them because the need to, not because they like them.
I can build another Sitka Spruce soundboard, and mount the pickups as you note, and use F holes. I have finally become a little better at building soundboards, so not a problem now. Plus I can make them by hand, no CNC required.
I really want to build an archtop acoustic guitar with F holes, but I would need to redesign and CNC cut my neck, so a much bigger deal. Plus archtops require much more skill to make than a flat top. I am not there yet, but some day!
I think black screws look better than stainless steel, but still dicey at best!
Piezos pick up the sound of the wood resonance, obviously an important part of the "acoustic sound", and is preferred by most players of amplified acoustic instruments who want that sound but need more gain before feedback than a microphone can provide. The piezo pickup needs proper placement, equalization and impedance matching/buffering to sound like a real acoustic instrument, so is more difficult (takes more skill and $$) to implement than a magnetic pickup.
Magnetic pickups pick up the sound of the string at their specific placement, the harmonics (overtones) they pick up determined by that placement. The placement is as important as the pickup type. The material used to make the instrument has little effect on what the magnetic pickup picks up.
The reason a Les Paul bridge pickup sounds more "beefy" than an SG is simply because it is located closer to the 22nd fret- the double cutaway of the SG requires it to be located further from the neck and closer to the bridge.
Your sound hole mounted magnetic pickups limit their placement to what I would consider non-optimal positions for the "best" sound, as the nearer to the bridge, the more attenuated the first harmonic (the fundamental note) becomes.
If you support the pickup above the strings and move it back and fourth in relation to the bridge you will probably find you prefer the more mellow and balanced tone with it as close to the fretboard as possible, while the closer to the bridge the more "twangy" the sound is. The usual electric guitar two pickup placement can optimize between the two, while your sound hole placement limits the harmonic range available.
Art
I remember when it came out. My friend, an avid P-bass player and much better musician than me, poo-poo'd the idea...
Very interesting, thanks much Art. I still like my magnetic and piezo combo, great tone. I think piezo only for my guitar is just not acceptable, based on my experimentation, but I do admit it could likely be improved. Every time I hear one by itself, even setup by a pro, just does not cut it for me. Taylor is pushing their Piezo system and they are a great company, love my Taylor, but online you can see very mixed reviews (the piezo not the guitar), not what I would call a sure fire option. Two mags, definitely worth a try, I had some good results last night, just by ear, but did not have time to get very far.
I have a very nice piece of Western Red Cedar that is 18" x 24", would make a great soundboard. I can go with JJ's F hole suggestion, and then put the pickups
wherever desired, based on Art's suggestions. I could even remove the two bottom frets that never get used, and put one pickup as far away from the bridge as possible, and experiment with were to place the second pickup. I would still use the Fishman Humbuckers, they are winners.
Right now my pickups are too far away from the strings, so moving closer to the strings will provide even more power, at a lower amp volume setting. I could design the pickup mounting so they are adjustable, similar to my Heritage H535, meaning adjust the 6 string height and 1 string height differently, in additional to moving the overall height.
I know the low strings with more mass and bronze winding around the steel strings will react differently than the two high steel strings in a magnetic field of course. Not sure how they are different, but pretty obvious they must be, will test that also.
Plus in addition to my pickups, I obviously have the big soundboard and the horns, so a different animal than most guitars, looking forward to more possibilities!
I have a very nice piece of Western Red Cedar that is 18" x 24", would make a great soundboard. I can go with JJ's F hole suggestion, and then put the pickups
wherever desired, based on Art's suggestions. I could even remove the two bottom frets that never get used, and put one pickup as far away from the bridge as possible, and experiment with were to place the second pickup. I would still use the Fishman Humbuckers, they are winners.
Right now my pickups are too far away from the strings, so moving closer to the strings will provide even more power, at a lower amp volume setting. I could design the pickup mounting so they are adjustable, similar to my Heritage H535, meaning adjust the 6 string height and 1 string height differently, in additional to moving the overall height.
I know the low strings with more mass and bronze winding around the steel strings will react differently than the two high steel strings in a magnetic field of course. Not sure how they are different, but pretty obvious they must be, will test that also.
Plus in addition to my pickups, I obviously have the big soundboard and the horns, so a different animal than most guitars, looking forward to more possibilities!
The moving pickup idea is good, but compared to the Precision's staggered split neck pickup and bridge pickup combo, offered less harmonic diversity.
Moving the pickup closer to the strings improves the signal to noise ratio considerably- an inverse square relationship.
You should be able to shim the pickup closer to the strings, might need longer mounting screws.
Yeah closer to strings will be a great experiment for now. Screws are an unusual size: #4-48, but I found some 1/4" longer, so got lucky. Plus I checked my Cedar I bought some time ago, not quarter sawn, can't use for a soundboard, will need to buy something else.
I knew it! OK - I was pretty sure. 🤣
But Art knew it: "Moving the pickup closer to the strings improves the signal to noise ratio considerably- an inverse square relationship."
I have been thinking about moving the pickups closer to the strings for some time. They were .340" away from pickup to bottom of low E string, too far.
I cut that in half with shims and longer screws, now they are .170" away from pickup to bottom of low E string.
I am playing on volume 7, and getting the same general results (by ear) with previous volume on 9. Sounds wonderful, with just one pickup, even compared to a mag and piezo together.
Two mag pickups is unreal, wife asleep, don't do it more than a few chords!
JJ - the double pickup setup with F holes idea is gaining ground.
The shims are pretty crude, but a start. More power at less volume, cleaner sound, more headroom. Tomorrow I will crank it up even further, to see what happens!
But Art knew it: "Moving the pickup closer to the strings improves the signal to noise ratio considerably- an inverse square relationship."
I have been thinking about moving the pickups closer to the strings for some time. They were .340" away from pickup to bottom of low E string, too far.
I cut that in half with shims and longer screws, now they are .170" away from pickup to bottom of low E string.
I am playing on volume 7, and getting the same general results (by ear) with previous volume on 9. Sounds wonderful, with just one pickup, even compared to a mag and piezo together.
Two mag pickups is unreal, wife asleep, don't do it more than a few chords!
JJ - the double pickup setup with F holes idea is gaining ground.
The shims are pretty crude, but a start. More power at less volume, cleaner sound, more headroom. Tomorrow I will crank it up even further, to see what happens!
I had a great jam session today, the magnetic pickups closer to the strings are incredible! Volume 7 was a great test, then I cranked it up to about 8-1/2, WOW, what power. I did not measure anything, but I am willing to bet my new pickup closer to the strings has more power than the previous mag pickup and piezo combined.
Art - talk about more "twangy" as you get closer to the bridge, man you are not kidding. I used two pickups as shown above, and the pickup only 2-3/8" closer to the bride is well on its way to "twangy town", I can't believe how much different they sound. Of course I love the pickup further from the bridge with a beautiful warm sound.
Now I am thinking: cut two frets off the fingerboard, and put two mag pickups as far away from the bridge as possible. Plus keep a piezo for many options.
I mean really, my guitar was screaming with power when I used the new mag by itself, or with a second mag, or with the piezo, GAME CHANGER!
I find it hard to believe any guitar player would not pick this is up and play it, hear the incredible power and say: man I have never heard an acoustic guitar like this ever, and that would be true!
Art - talk about more "twangy" as you get closer to the bridge, man you are not kidding. I used two pickups as shown above, and the pickup only 2-3/8" closer to the bride is well on its way to "twangy town", I can't believe how much different they sound. Of course I love the pickup further from the bridge with a beautiful warm sound.
Now I am thinking: cut two frets off the fingerboard, and put two mag pickups as far away from the bridge as possible. Plus keep a piezo for many options.
I mean really, my guitar was screaming with power when I used the new mag by itself, or with a second mag, or with the piezo, GAME CHANGER!
I find it hard to believe any guitar player would not pick this is up and play it, hear the incredible power and say: man I have never heard an acoustic guitar like this ever, and that would be true!
True, it's an electric guitar, a different sound than an acoustic guitar.
It has been over a century since guitar players have been making their instruments louder using electric amplification.
I agree it is an electric/acoustic guitar Art, but the sound is not much different from an acoustic guitar at all. It sounds like an acoustic guitar, because it is...many years of guitars being played through amps and PA's is not the same as using electronics and horns to put the sound back into the guitar itself. The guitar body resonates far more than the typical resonance from the strings and soundboard, which of course contributes to the sound also. Plus the sustain from the guitar body itself is incredible.
I said at the end of my YouTube video, and I think it it is even more true now with improvements: People need to hear this guitar live, better yet they need to play it, then they will most certainly understand how different it really is. That is my stance, I believe it to be very accurate. When it is played it will be proof positive that what I am saying is completely legit. Time to get back to painting the house and watching football, which is nowhere near as fun as playing my guitar! 😉
I said at the end of my YouTube video, and I think it it is even more true now with improvements: People need to hear this guitar live, better yet they need to play it, then they will most certainly understand how different it really is. That is my stance, I believe it to be very accurate. When it is played it will be proof positive that what I am saying is completely legit. Time to get back to painting the house and watching football, which is nowhere near as fun as playing my guitar! 😉
Admittedly, "holding the sound in your arms" is going to be a far different sensation from a players perspective than the sound coming from a "box over there". In my limited experience as a player, I find I already seem to prefer my acoustic guitars to the Yamaha "silent" for on stage performance.
The Yamaha sounds and looks just fine, but I cant hear it from the "holding the sound in my arms" vantage point. The - how would I say - "near-field immediacy" is missing; the sound is like it's coming from elsewhere, usually out in the room. I'm often just too nervous to remember to request getting some guitar in the one monitor present when I use that one.
This guy (my age) who usually reads poetry sang "Going to California" A Cappella last Friday. I told him that was pretty gutsy to attempt with no accompaniment. I like to have my guitar under my chin so to speak, with a full chord and all the harmonics I can match my voice pitch to. When that's not there, I'm more uncomfortable. I had to think about it, to realize why.
I assume with a pro musician, they're going to be far more immune to something like that. I'm just a beginner.
The Yamaha sounds and looks just fine, but I cant hear it from the "holding the sound in my arms" vantage point. The - how would I say - "near-field immediacy" is missing; the sound is like it's coming from elsewhere, usually out in the room. I'm often just too nervous to remember to request getting some guitar in the one monitor present when I use that one.
This guy (my age) who usually reads poetry sang "Going to California" A Cappella last Friday. I told him that was pretty gutsy to attempt with no accompaniment. I like to have my guitar under my chin so to speak, with a full chord and all the harmonics I can match my voice pitch to. When that's not there, I'm more uncomfortable. I had to think about it, to realize why.
I assume with a pro musician, they're going to be far more immune to something like that. I'm just a beginner.
JJ - I have wondered about the Yamaha Silent Guitar, looks like a cool design, plus playing through headphones is a big help. I used to play my electric semi-hollow body to keep things quiet when needed, so there are times when this could be a good option.
How does it get an acoustic sound without a body? Is there modeling technology included? If not, I can't imagine how it would sound acoustic. I think the Fender Acoustasonic would have a bit more of an acoustic sound, but the chamber is so small, I can't imagine it would provide much acoustic power. Maybe it is a step above a silent guitar, but not close to an acoustic guitar.
Yep, holding the sound in your arms is a game changer, that is what playing acoustic guitars are all about!
How does it get an acoustic sound without a body? Is there modeling technology included? If not, I can't imagine how it would sound acoustic. I think the Fender Acoustasonic would have a bit more of an acoustic sound, but the chamber is so small, I can't imagine it would provide much acoustic power. Maybe it is a step above a silent guitar, but not close to an acoustic guitar.
Yep, holding the sound in your arms is a game changer, that is what playing acoustic guitars are all about!
It doesnt. It's pretty much a nylon string electric guitar. Pleasant sounding, for practice w/o disturbance, has a nice reverb built in to make it even more palatable. You can play it on stage, but it sounds like a nylon electric.
The acoustasonic shows what can be done via good guitar, pickup and audio engineering. Sounds bigger than it is. One friend at the open mic has a Maton Tommy Emmanuel Signature dreadnaught, his buddy who's a bigger dude has an acoustasonic. Sounds great, looks like a toy - especially up against his body size. He'd need a jumbo to scale visually.
I have always given Fender credit for the innovation on this guitar. It has some cool sounds, but it just does not sound like an acoustic guitar, so the name seems a bit dicey to me.
Acoustic Guitar Magazine has agreed to run the half page add in May/June 2025, so good news. Plus the full digital footprint, like it!
AGM/JJ/Art and my daughter do not think the Frequency Data chart will run well, so I surrender. I like that chart, it jumps out to me as everything I hear, and tells a story, BAM. OK others not playing or hearing it live, not so much, it dies for this ad.
They like my Website, and have offered to help design the ad at a decent cost. I will take it, stay tuned!
AGM/JJ/Art and my daughter do not think the Frequency Data chart will run well, so I surrender. I like that chart, it jumps out to me as everything I hear, and tells a story, BAM. OK others not playing or hearing it live, not so much, it dies for this ad.
They like my Website, and have offered to help design the ad at a decent cost. I will take it, stay tuned!
You could do a "this or THIS";
"this" would be the guy leaning forward, cupping his ears, straining to hear something. The speaker would be replaced by someone on a stool playing an ordinary acoustic guitar -
Can you guess what "THIS" would be?
I mean, that's the level you're going after. Non-technical, someone briefly looks at it and instantly gets the message! I think that's why the above is one of the most iconic adverts in all of audio. So iconic - so old - you could probably play on it and get away with it.
Just a thought.
"this" would be the guy leaning forward, cupping his ears, straining to hear something. The speaker would be replaced by someone on a stool playing an ordinary acoustic guitar -
Can you guess what "THIS" would be?
I mean, that's the level you're going after. Non-technical, someone briefly looks at it and instantly gets the message! I think that's why the above is one of the most iconic adverts in all of audio. So iconic - so old - you could probably play on it and get away with it.
Just a thought.