Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar Patent # 10,777,172

So Lloyd was killing it even back then, showing Martin (probably with racks of electronics) a thing or two, sweet. I just bought the LR Baggs HiFi Duet pickup system also. Testing will happen, can it be done on my guitar?? BTW there is new YouTube video from NAMM this week with LR Baggs company interviews. I really wish they would stop calling that beautiful body plywood, just asking for ridicule from people that might not fully understand. Engineered Lamination!

My fugly screws will come in handy as I take the soundboard off in ten minutes, install the new pickups, play away, then maybe rip off the top again and make adjustments if needed. They may be ugly, but man are they functional.

The LR Baggs M1 mag pickup has very strong magnets, can lift it with ease shown below, not sure about the tone yet. The Fishman magnets are not near as strong.

I like how Lloyd says the acoustic guitar is not meant to be played at 130 dB, you got that right. I can get maybe 115 dB max, and that is pretty much as loud as I can stand, even just from my guitar vs. a PA system. The dB shown below is from my iPhone inside the grand piano, banging out chords as hard as possible. 109 dB is plenty of power for a large room.

He says walking down Broadway in Nashville you can hear these loud (130 dB through PA?) acoustic guitars with under saddle Piezo's I believe, and they sound like chewing tinfoil. CORRECT! Man how can people live with that sound! I don't get it. I even hear this on the radio from a very popular station, the guitar sounds horrible.

Well some people care about beautiful sound, and anybody that does, and tries to do something about, is on my good list.

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Man how can people live with that sound! I don't get it.
Duh, Yaaa! Everyone at the open mic I go to either uses their stock on board system or a sound hole maggie pickup. The Taylors' stock system - regardless of the particular guitar (even the Baby) - sound the best to my ears. I'm the only one silly enough to try 'an guitar-mount-mic their soundboard, to pick up what's coming off that, er, membrane-o-phone.

Now I'm tempted to try a Shure AMS24 mic. Says it's got two back to back electrets inside, which their mixer uses to gate the sound coming from the front element. Wondering if I can effectively do nearfield pickup - far field cancelling with that already built, mechanically out of phase capsule arrangement.

Not rocket science, nor a lot cost wise for me to experiment, procured off ebay. Have to power it though, which puts me back into battery in the guitar and all the attendant hassles with that.

I've played my own guitar mounted dynamic mic system a few times now, no one seems to bat an eyelash over its sound quality. The soundboard guy is used to its lower sensitivity and can dial up a sufficient volume level. No difficulty from feedback events from my guitar during my little 3 song performances.
 
Now I'm tempted to try a Shure AMS24 mic. Says it's got two back to back electrets inside, which their mixer uses to gate the sound coming from the front element. Wondering if I can effectively do nearfield pickup - far field cancelling with that already built, mechanically out of phase capsule arrangement.
The back to back cardioid AMS24 mic elements are not electrically reversed in polarity.
The AMS mixer only uses the rear element for comparison, not phase cancellation.
The comparison makes the noise gate function better for conference type situations, but combining the reverse polarity rear element with the front won't work well for a guitar, as both elements would cancel the information common to both sides, which would mostly be the guitar signal.
Also, the large radiating area of a guitar wouldn't provide the 9dB front to back element level difference to make the gate work properly, even if you were using the mixer.

From the "AMS Concept" description:
"When an AMS microphone is correctly positioned, one capsule (the front capsule) faces the talker.
The other capsule (the rear capsule) faces away from the talker. The signals from the capsules are sent separately to the AMS mixer. (Pin 2 of the XLR connector is the front capsule and Pin 3 is the rear capsule.)
Each AMS mixer channel constantly compares the level it receives from the front capsule to the level from the rear capsule.
Whenever the front exceeds the rear by at least 9 dB, “Voilà”, the electronic gate on the AMS channel is opened (in 4ms..) and the signal from the front capsule is sent to the mixer output...if you talk to the side of an AMS microphone, your voice will be equally loud in both capsules and the gate stays closed.
But talk to the front of the microphone and the gate will open as long as your voice is 9 dB higher in the front capsule than the sound coming into the rear capsule."


If you experiment with reversed polarity cardioid microphone combinations, you will hear how peaky and awful sounding they are for anything other than the sound within ~1/2" from the favored element.

Art
 
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If you experiment with reversed polarity cardioid microphone combinations, you will hear how peaky and awful sounding they are for anything other than the sound within ~1/2" from the favored element.
It's true I never have. Just was thinking about it and they're certainly cheap enough on the used market (latest offer ~$25 for two gooseneck models, shipped) to experiment - and fail - with, without breaking the hobby fund.
 
This is one fugly setup, but I don't have the time and want to test tonight!

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This will be next and will require soundboard removal. Everything I get from L.R. Baggs is sturdy, looks easy to install and use, and I believe will be very effective. What's not to like?

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So the L.R. Baggs M1 Active does not seem to be a good match for my guitar. Great pickup, I really like it, I think it is more of an issue with my guitar. My light yet strong soundboard really vibrates, so I think it is putting a little too much into the pickup, per below. It will feedback at a lower volume, and the warm tone is just not there. I need to adjust poles and try again. For some reason the Fishman mag closer to the strings sound is by far the best, so I am sticking with that for now, with the Fishman piezo.

Next step is the L.R. Baggs Hi Fi Duet. I could use just the HiFi mic with my Fishman mag and see how that works, or try the HiFi piezo's with the HiFi mic as intended, try different combos. The sound hole and my bracing has enough room for both, stay tuned!

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L.R. Baggs Hi Fi Duet.
Given that you're considering, or maybe have already made a $500 pickup purchase, you might want to have a look at one competitor as a "second opinion".

I'd suggest https://graphtech.com/pages/ghost-pickup-systems, https://graphtech.com/collections/g...products/ghost-acoustic-steel-string-midi-kit

It may be entirely the wrong approach for what you want to hear, being a "in the saddle" pickup (which you already have) versus a "on the bridge plate" one.

Having the possibility - at a competitive price point - of individual string volume level balance and MIDI control - like those Godin guitars do - seems advantageous to me.

You can see what some of the Godin players can do with their MIDI controller guitars on yt. Now imagine that coming out the horns, along with the guitar sound, for a "full" sounding performance while busking on the street.

Anything you can offer that broadens your inventions use-case, is going to help sell it. Just...something to think about!
 
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Everybody wants to get that great acoustic sound, always a good thing. I do like this product JJ, sounds pretty cool, I can see it doing well. I think saying it sounds just like an acoustic guitar is a bit of a stretch from the YT video I just watched. Seems similar to the guitar modeling sound, not bad at all, just not the same.

I did buy the LR Baggs HiFi Duet. I have some ideas about mic placement, many locations I want to try, but the sun is out and it is 40 degrees, time to get back outside!

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I think saying it sounds just like an acoustic guitar is a bit of a stretch from the YT video I just watched.
That's their solid body guitar pickup product. They may be leveraging off the common "piezo sound" that everyone by now is so ear-trained on, to make the "electric solid body sounds like an acoustic" claim.

They also have a product specifically tailored for acoustic guitar installs. That's the second URL I posted. I'd imagine you'd get a one-up (sound balance wise) over a common to all strings bar piezo, plus the ability to do MIDI control, like a Godin.

As your FHAG stands today, I imagine it being connected to a pedal board in any case, holding a tone enhancing preamp and a clean power amp for your speakers, to make a complete playing system. A MIDI box would be just another cable and "tone source" for that. Using a MIDI sound generator effectively along with acoustic guitar sound, would frankly be beyond my scope as a player, however interesting.
 
Acoustic Guitar Magazine reviewed my latest Ad and politely told me, yeah that's not going to cut it. Not exactly in those words, but I get it. I said no problem, give me your ideas, I am pretty sure they will be better, you guys are the Ad experts. This is their take on it after reviewing my Website and YouTube video. They want to run three different Ads, for three issues, starting May/June:

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Yes, you can tell they've been around the block on this. They look nice.

Still, there's some improvements to be made that will better convey what you have to offer the acoustic playing musician -

1. "Our solution" suggests there's electronics. Really, any manufacturer / player would have to provide their own, that which goes between pickup and the internal speakers.

2. The "fugly screws" wont exist in a production model. Try and get those photo-shopped out of the pix they're going to use. Just to avoid any audience distraction around them.

3. No glaring depiction of the horn exits; no clue where the sound comes out. Essential to conveying the idea...

4. Tone/wood, tone, tone. There needs to be some feel mentioned, even if it's a silly what anyone would say "feel every note". Why? Because I'm sure it's there, when you begin to pump some power into it.

5. It looks like they round icon-ized a couple things in the first ad. I'd suggest the "use-cases" your invention would make it easier to cover. Busking. Solo Stage. Parade. Dixieland / Jazz Ensemble. Orchestra. Remote location.

If my dog's food bag can icon-ize a stomach to convey "easy to digest", I'm sure an artist could do a little campfire with a seated player behind it. Or an open guitar case in front of a standing player. My 2C!
 
The L.R. Baggs Hi Fi Duet is a great pickup system, no doubt. I can use it (mic only) on my guitar at 6-1/2 volume. Sounds very warm,
but not much power. Turn it up to only 7 and it squeals like a pig. Big surprise eh? An expensive mistake, was worth a try!

Pretty obvious that my guitar with drivers inside will never work with an internal mic. Now placing the mic on the horn mouths?
Maybe, will try that also.

I am thankful for mag pickups! Without that great power and tone, my guitar would be toast.

I will take the piezo as a second cousin only, that also works, but only with the mag!
 
Turn it up to only 7 and it squeals like a pig. Big surprise eh? Pretty obvious that my guitar with drivers inside will never work with an internal mic.
No surprise, the folded horns have an output peak in the "pig squeal" frequency range which would require a narrow band EQ dip to bring down to make the mic "work".

The gain before feedback is severely limited by the proximity of the mic to your speakers.
For example, say your mic is 1 foot from the horn speaker's output and reaches 110dB at the frequency it feeds back at.
Move the speaker to 2 feet from the mic, it could produce 116dB, at 4', 122dB, at 8', 126dB before feedback, almost 3 times as loud.
That said, your FHAG speakers couldn't produce anywhere near that level without gross distortion, other than at the "pig squeal" frequency range they are most capable of reproducing.

Putting the speakers near the sound source simply works against using a mic or a transducer, the two methods used for picking up acoustic guitar "wood tones".
Now placing the mic on the horn mouths?
Maybe, will try that also.
Feedback occurs when an acoustic path exists between an audio output (a horn mouth, for example) and its audio input and the gain approaches one.
Pointing a mic at the speaker used to amplify it will amplify that output, the definition of feedback.

Art