planet10 said:
Seems to be an aweful lot of 4, 5 & 6 + higher harmonics here -- i would say that it is undeserving of a very good rating. The right channel is also shelved up >1kHz -- i'd guess that is a noise issue.
dave
Hi dave,
Don't forget that this is a dB-scale, the k4 is at -90db,5&6 at -100db,
and 7 already -110db. -110db = 0.000316%. As the k7 is 30db below
the k2, i see no problem...
For example, a decent soundcard has thd of 0.007%, the pro-audio
card i use has 0.0017%. Most CD-players have much more...
Mike
mikeks said:
Hmm, i don't think so... Look at attached picture, these are the
collectorcurrents of the 2 bjts forming the output of the vas-stage,
this looks very much like a perfect pushpull-operation to me...
(Values taken at 12v,10khz into 4ohms)
Shall i continue with the diffamp ? Or do you have other facts ?
Mike
Attachments
MikeB said:
True. But 4, 5, & 6 are all greater than 3 (and 7 & 8 are close) -- that is not a good thing. It would be interesting to hear what you feel the sonic differences are if you could tweak it so that those are all less than the 3rd (even if quantitatively higher than before)
dave
I would agree with mikeb on the 2nd diff amp. It is hard to imagine that they don't function like a traditional diff amp, however you look at them.
I have traditionally taken a minimalist approach to amp: it is hard to spend money on amps from a janitor's salary. and if I were design this amp (even if I follow the diff-VAS approach), i would have made it a lot simpler.
But that's just me.
I have traditionally taken a minimalist approach to amp: it is hard to spend money on amps from a janitor's salary. and if I were design this amp (even if I follow the diff-VAS approach), i would have made it a lot simpler.
But that's just me.
Hi dave,
You're right, ideally all harmonics are smaller than the previous one,
like harmonic harmonics. I was surprised that the 3rd harmonic is that
low... I should be able to rearrange the harmonics by adding degeneration-res.
In sims the harmonics looks different... (of course)
The higher order harmonics seem to be dominated by soundcard,
with pure loopback (cable only) the 7th harmonic is still -110db.
Maybe not the best method to measure, but it was the "cheapest" one...
But first i will try to fix the right channel and improve the psu.
Mike
You're right, ideally all harmonics are smaller than the previous one,
like harmonic harmonics. I was surprised that the 3rd harmonic is that
low... I should be able to rearrange the harmonics by adding degeneration-res.
In sims the harmonics looks different... (of course)
The higher order harmonics seem to be dominated by soundcard,
with pure loopback (cable only) the 7th harmonic is still -110db.
Maybe not the best method to measure, but it was the "cheapest" one...
But first i will try to fix the right channel and improve the psu.
Mike
Speaker reproducing music, will show you a terrible spectrum as result of weigth in
movement.
The Speaker, as Dave know better than everyone, are the weekest point in the audio chain....there, your small percentuals will be destroyed and substituted with another enormous spectrum with many other harmonics, bigger and more in quantity.
There's strange to worry too much with some ant foot step when you have the elefant speaker creating a cratera, that is it's foot step.
The better amplifier will stablish better communication with the speaker, as there is the problem, not only the speaker itself, but the transference to it.
Two amplifiers, one with 1 percent distortion and other with less distortion will sound almost the same, the differences, if perceived, will be smaller than the speaker distortion...as speaker will produce a much louder distortion...say...2 to 5 percent....all right...you may say that 2 percent from speaker is better than 2 percent plus 0.1 percent.... that we can avoid this small amplifier distortion....but really, this is a strange way to scape from reality.... worries must go to speakers!
As some intelectual exercise it is interesting to discuss, but believe me, this is some waste of time related the Symassym audio quality, that will be good in the dependence of the speaker it will use...i am sure one damaged one will sound awfull.
Sound is guaranteed...by 45 years of hearing habits i developed, and many good guys evaluated it too....i asked many friends to listen carefully...so, the worst can be the distortion or the smallest the distortion, something more definitive...human ears!!!, already heard it.
Yes, headphones are another sittuation, much better than the standard speakers inside enclosures.
Ask your spectrum analisers...try to see if they will answer you.
regards,
Carlos
movement.
The Speaker, as Dave know better than everyone, are the weekest point in the audio chain....there, your small percentuals will be destroyed and substituted with another enormous spectrum with many other harmonics, bigger and more in quantity.
There's strange to worry too much with some ant foot step when you have the elefant speaker creating a cratera, that is it's foot step.
The better amplifier will stablish better communication with the speaker, as there is the problem, not only the speaker itself, but the transference to it.
Two amplifiers, one with 1 percent distortion and other with less distortion will sound almost the same, the differences, if perceived, will be smaller than the speaker distortion...as speaker will produce a much louder distortion...say...2 to 5 percent....all right...you may say that 2 percent from speaker is better than 2 percent plus 0.1 percent.... that we can avoid this small amplifier distortion....but really, this is a strange way to scape from reality.... worries must go to speakers!
As some intelectual exercise it is interesting to discuss, but believe me, this is some waste of time related the Symassym audio quality, that will be good in the dependence of the speaker it will use...i am sure one damaged one will sound awfull.
Sound is guaranteed...by 45 years of hearing habits i developed, and many good guys evaluated it too....i asked many friends to listen carefully...so, the worst can be the distortion or the smallest the distortion, something more definitive...human ears!!!, already heard it.
Yes, headphones are another sittuation, much better than the standard speakers inside enclosures.
Ask your spectrum analisers...try to see if they will answer you.
regards,
Carlos
Re: Speaker reproducing music, will show you a terrible spectrum as result of weigth
Carlos !
What speakers do you have ? My tweeters are somewhere at 0.1% ! (Measured)
Mike
destroyer X said:
Carlos !
What speakers do you have ? My tweeters are somewhere at 0.1% ! (Measured)
Mike
The sismograph, dear Michael, are very ligthweigh pen drawing into a paper.
Have fixed rails...low mass and amplitude limiting action...so, it has the capability to follow every earth motion.... sensitive amplifiers connect to sensors send power to magnetic transducer, much better than a single speaker coil...
There you can have better precision...but speakers...really, dismount one and observe..very stupid..can have torsions, deformations of diagragm...coil can go on and diafragm stay in its position... centering material is not perfect...do not allow linear movement to outside, or inside...the coils will touch the magnet...the magnet also is not perfect...the ring suspension is more to sell beauty that to provide soft and flexible centering...the material made is more to sell ligh reflective surfaces that something to produce sound.
Scratch with your nails..... have you listened the Nails scratching alike the Movie "Shark!"..... did you listen enormous noise!...no!...that's what i am telling about.
Because the weigh.... sinus signal ordering too return...when diafragm already going!...it is a damn bull "Cheap".
Do you want to really know...i think they can distort more than 3 percent!
* Sismograph is the earquake meter...the one that trace the peaks on paper.
regards,
Carlos
Have fixed rails...low mass and amplitude limiting action...so, it has the capability to follow every earth motion.... sensitive amplifiers connect to sensors send power to magnetic transducer, much better than a single speaker coil...
There you can have better precision...but speakers...really, dismount one and observe..very stupid..can have torsions, deformations of diagragm...coil can go on and diafragm stay in its position... centering material is not perfect...do not allow linear movement to outside, or inside...the coils will touch the magnet...the magnet also is not perfect...the ring suspension is more to sell beauty that to provide soft and flexible centering...the material made is more to sell ligh reflective surfaces that something to produce sound.
Scratch with your nails..... have you listened the Nails scratching alike the Movie "Shark!"..... did you listen enormous noise!...no!...that's what i am telling about.
Because the weigh.... sinus signal ordering too return...when diafragm already going!...it is a damn bull "Cheap".
Do you want to really know...i think they can distort more than 3 percent!
* Sismograph is the earquake meter...the one that trace the peaks on paper.
regards,
Carlos
Michael, i am listening to Super Powered Symassym 5
Yeah...the "Phasor"...phase corrector.
47.5 volts each rail....hummmmmmm
Nice... delicious as ein apfell strudell mit cream.
Wunderbach..... alles blau...hummmmm gut!
Delicious as one apple pye with Milk cream covering
Magnificent, all rigth...hummmm good!
As my dear daugther use to say to other children (awfull that!)
"I have Powered Symassym Phasor 5 to listen"....you have not!
you have not!...you have not!
regards,
Carlos
Yeah...the "Phasor"...phase corrector.
47.5 volts each rail....hummmmmmm
Nice... delicious as ein apfell strudell mit cream.
Wunderbach..... alles blau...hummmmm gut!
Delicious as one apple pye with Milk cream covering
Magnificent, all rigth...hummmm good!
As my dear daugther use to say to other children (awfull that!)
"I have Powered Symassym Phasor 5 to listen"....you have not!
you have not!...you have not!
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Drivers are more than war...but i think, around 50 degrées is too much.
They will be moved to the output heatsink.
Well, for a while, as this heatsink is for experiences only, will use another one with air pumping...with a fan over it.
But output just warm normal listening levels (30 watts peak)...turn hot when i go hard!..... this one must go to correct convection cooling position.
regards,
Carlos
They will be moved to the output heatsink.
Well, for a while, as this heatsink is for experiences only, will use another one with air pumping...with a fan over it.
But output just warm normal listening levels (30 watts peak)...turn hot when i go hard!..... this one must go to correct convection cooling position.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
The supply is a monster...too much capacity to this amplifier.
Voltage reduction not more than 10 percent when hard driving.
Output around 120 watts RMS over 4 ohms is easy and undistorted...but the poor speaker...the one suffer a lot.
I think this is too much!.... with 37 Volts the power is enough.
regards,
Carlos
Voltage reduction not more than 10 percent when hard driving.
Output around 120 watts RMS over 4 ohms is easy and undistorted...but the poor speaker...the one suffer a lot.
I think this is too much!.... with 37 Volts the power is enough.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Re: The sismograph, dear Michael, are very ligthweigh pen drawing into a paper.
Seismograph
Carlos. My 4-dimensional force-field speaker is still at the noodling stage -- the physisits still need to do some fundemental work before i can proceed 🙂
dave
destroyer X said:
Seismograph
Carlos. My 4-dimensional force-field speaker is still at the noodling stage -- the physisits still need to do some fundemental work before i can proceed 🙂
dave
Dear Planet, just relax and feel the force..it will enter your soul using hard to
imagine roads.... long riding roads...with grass and bull
Roads of happyness for your soul
Do not let the damned thieves
to use the justicer knife
Stopping the wisper of the leaves
Reducing the decibels of your life
Dear planet, there are the good electrons they are good
All in the village of Kambuktú
Some,.... less agreable, act as Kanjiru
A very small fish that may enter u.
It swins inside your shorts producing ciclonic convolution
It express its own desire, to be hidden against those
that go to eat at will.
Better to relax and sit down, protecting parts of evolution
Related the small fish desires, things so ill
So awfull to your eyes, and worst to your own... safety
will
You will not see them shine
During the search of protection
Better to sit having some wine
Than let if free for insertion.
I am the poet from tanaxú
the place where courageous indian
Born with the name of Kú
He was kind and friendly
Presented you all Tanaxú
All tribe cooperate to show
To everybody, that your friend is Kú
God bless you Dave.
regards,
Carlos
imagine roads.... long riding roads...with grass and bull
Roads of happyness for your soul
Do not let the damned thieves
to use the justicer knife
Stopping the wisper of the leaves
Reducing the decibels of your life
Dear planet, there are the good electrons they are good
All in the village of Kambuktú
Some,.... less agreable, act as Kanjiru
A very small fish that may enter u.
It swins inside your shorts producing ciclonic convolution
It express its own desire, to be hidden against those
that go to eat at will.
Better to relax and sit down, protecting parts of evolution
Related the small fish desires, things so ill
So awfull to your eyes, and worst to your own... safety
will
You will not see them shine
During the search of protection
Better to sit having some wine
Than let if free for insertion.
I am the poet from tanaxú
the place where courageous indian
Born with the name of Kú
He was kind and friendly
Presented you all Tanaxú
All tribe cooperate to show
To everybody, that your friend is Kú
God bless you Dave.
regards,
Carlos
Re: Dear Planet, just relax and feel the force..it will enter your soul using hard to
I live up a mountain. Every day i get a lovely drive down & up a wonderful twisty road. No cows, but deers & horses.
dave
destroyer X said:
I live up a mountain. Every day i get a lovely drive down & up a wonderful twisty road. No cows, but deers & horses.
dave
You've got it...the fun intention...Michael is travelling, so, we need to create some
movement here.
By the way...Canjirú...or Kanjirú is a small fish that lived in the Amazon river and neighborhood.
It use to keep himself inside holes at river sides.... dark and deep holes are the way they use to protect themselves against other animals.
The people, detecting the presence of this small fish, use to enter the water using a tigh shorts, to avoid the fish to try to hide itself in some wrong place...Oh! Pain!!!
regards,
Carlos
movement here.
By the way...Canjirú...or Kanjirú is a small fish that lived in the Amazon river and neighborhood.
It use to keep himself inside holes at river sides.... dark and deep holes are the way they use to protect themselves against other animals.
The people, detecting the presence of this small fish, use to enter the water using a tigh shorts, to avoid the fish to try to hide itself in some wrong place...Oh! Pain!!!
regards,
Carlos
I am still testing full power.
There is a 8 ohms speaker...100 watts unit...receiving all power...and it is locked in another room.... from this speaker i have a resistor 33 Ohms that is beeing used to my speaker monitor....so.... when start to distort over the main load...a real speaker load...start to distort here....i am operating in the threshold of distortion...maximum power....hours doing that!
Having real speaker...with coil, suspension, and magnet...you have real problems generated.
So.... real world test...speaker over real load!
It is working fine.
regards,
Carlos
There is a 8 ohms speaker...100 watts unit...receiving all power...and it is locked in another room.... from this speaker i have a resistor 33 Ohms that is beeing used to my speaker monitor....so.... when start to distort over the main load...a real speaker load...start to distort here....i am operating in the threshold of distortion...maximum power....hours doing that!
Having real speaker...with coil, suspension, and magnet...you have real problems generated.
So.... real world test...speaker over real load!
It is working fine.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Re: I am still testing full power.
Carlos, that diet soda will drive you crazy....
dave
destroyer X said:
Carlos, that diet soda will drive you crazy....
dave