Michael is preparing a voyage inside Symassym
With the full description of the circuit.... hows and why this or that...and the reason of this choice and not the other one.
Something not so common, people do not use to describe, entirelly, an amplifier.
But Michael had this idea, to offer one more aid to forum guys, not only to understand Symassym, but also to develop their own amplifiers, based on his researches.
This will not be done instantaneously.... maybe a couple of days or a little bit more, as he cannot enter in his space of time dedicated to sleep.
But he already told me his intention.... and Michael intention is a promiss (he promissed me to send one pc board...used one...yeah...junk!....)... this way i know very well that he is fast with his decision....ahahahaha!
Score is 4 x 1 dear Michael...hummm...hard to face the ones that have big mouth and time to spend!
regards,
Carlos
With the full description of the circuit.... hows and why this or that...and the reason of this choice and not the other one.
Something not so common, people do not use to describe, entirelly, an amplifier.
But Michael had this idea, to offer one more aid to forum guys, not only to understand Symassym, but also to develop their own amplifiers, based on his researches.
This will not be done instantaneously.... maybe a couple of days or a little bit more, as he cannot enter in his space of time dedicated to sleep.
But he already told me his intention.... and Michael intention is a promiss (he promissed me to send one pc board...used one...yeah...junk!....)... this way i know very well that he is fast with his decision....ahahahaha!
Score is 4 x 1 dear Michael...hummm...hard to face the ones that have big mouth and time to spend!
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Post 348
Hello Carlos.
You said....(symasym) compared to other amplifiers.....
Which amplifiers or which topology?
Symasym was compared with a current feedback amplifier topology?
Thanks
Guillermo.
Hello Carlos.
You said....(symasym) compared to other amplifiers.....
Which amplifiers or which topology?
Symasym was compared with a current feedback amplifier topology?
Thanks
Guillermo.
Will wait Michael enter with more details Guillermo
Because he compared with many amplifiers he design, and he used different names, i do not know the thopologie names.
Cascode Vas was one of them
I think he made one with full simetrical input, not sure
He constructed DOZ
I used to compare with AKSA and Symassym was not a shame near the wonderfull Aksa.
Also compared with GEM, and again, not ashamed.
Michael compared with Yamaha A1, the one is bootstrapped and use Semi complementary output.
I think he used a Harman Kardon
And i made comparison with Sony modern Surround Receiver
A JVC home System
A Class D home System by Philips
And around 4306 (the last i had put number) amplifiers made in my home... those i did not compare, but they were dismounted, considered not enougth to be keept assembled for ethernity.... Gem, AKSA and SYMASSYM will be assembled...for life long..may be something very conclusive, to the ones believe, or accept, that practical experience have some value.
In special, the current feedback you are asking...i really do not know this amplifier, and i suppose there are many discussions about the correct name to call them...if current feedback or voltage feedback.... there are enormous thread discussing that...and no conclusion in our forum.
Michael has not under "arms culture" (cultura Suvacal)...those ones that read books and carry books under the arms to show know how...he do not support his conclusions on Telf paragraphs, Sdone ideas or teach informations...the man is much more than that.... he conclude in his own laboratory, using Scope and testing A to B..the best way to conclude things, as instruments are a wonderfull aid, but their results, alone, means nothing...the ones that measure very well, do not represent a guarantee that will sound well.
If you have designed, or have one assembled, will be wonderfull if you make some comparison testing with Symassym and came to tell us...Symassym is fast and very easy to construct, i can do it spending a couple of hours if i want to be slow...as i do not care with appearance for testing purposes....you can do it so fast as i did, and give this inform to us.... as this is a faulting information, of course Symassym was not compared with "all" world thopologies.
Oh!.... i start to have suspections that Symassym can be not so good...as it was never compared with my Balacobako!
Have you heard my Balacobako Guillermo?
ahahaha!
regards,
Carlos
Because he compared with many amplifiers he design, and he used different names, i do not know the thopologie names.
Cascode Vas was one of them
I think he made one with full simetrical input, not sure
He constructed DOZ
I used to compare with AKSA and Symassym was not a shame near the wonderfull Aksa.
Also compared with GEM, and again, not ashamed.
Michael compared with Yamaha A1, the one is bootstrapped and use Semi complementary output.
I think he used a Harman Kardon
And i made comparison with Sony modern Surround Receiver
A JVC home System
A Class D home System by Philips
And around 4306 (the last i had put number) amplifiers made in my home... those i did not compare, but they were dismounted, considered not enougth to be keept assembled for ethernity.... Gem, AKSA and SYMASSYM will be assembled...for life long..may be something very conclusive, to the ones believe, or accept, that practical experience have some value.
In special, the current feedback you are asking...i really do not know this amplifier, and i suppose there are many discussions about the correct name to call them...if current feedback or voltage feedback.... there are enormous thread discussing that...and no conclusion in our forum.
Michael has not under "arms culture" (cultura Suvacal)...those ones that read books and carry books under the arms to show know how...he do not support his conclusions on Telf paragraphs, Sdone ideas or teach informations...the man is much more than that.... he conclude in his own laboratory, using Scope and testing A to B..the best way to conclude things, as instruments are a wonderfull aid, but their results, alone, means nothing...the ones that measure very well, do not represent a guarantee that will sound well.
If you have designed, or have one assembled, will be wonderfull if you make some comparison testing with Symassym and came to tell us...Symassym is fast and very easy to construct, i can do it spending a couple of hours if i want to be slow...as i do not care with appearance for testing purposes....you can do it so fast as i did, and give this inform to us.... as this is a faulting information, of course Symassym was not compared with "all" world thopologies.
Oh!.... i start to have suspections that Symassym can be not so good...as it was never compared with my Balacobako!
Have you heard my Balacobako Guillermo?
ahahaha!
regards,
Carlos
Dear Kanwar, i do not know if he already informed the damping factor
Reason why, i have asked him to produce a more detail text about the amplifier operation, as something may be needed as technical informations, and in special, the reasons for this thopologie choice.
I remember, he already published a page with specifications, the more common, distortions and levels, do not remember if he had informed that, i suppose not, as you are asking.
Michael may know, but i really do not know Kanwar, what is the sonic result of good damping compared to bad damping factor?
Can you please explain me?... as i really do not know, and the ones that ask some, need to know?
May i understand a bad damping as something as a mismatch?... something i remember, from Radio Frequency, as Standing wave ratio..... mismatch between voltage and current, phase errors...practical result is energy flowing back to Radio Frequency amplifiers and finally destroying the output components... also, the mismatched components are not transmitted to Antenna, resulting in a loss of energy.
I do not remember very well Kanwar, but damping was very important, as specifications in the eigthies, or even nineties.... the whole idea i have about the subject, may be the difference of voltage present in the output with amplifier loaded or not loaded...something alike that.
Can you instruct me please Kanwar?
And in special, if this damping factor have influences, easy to perceive, without instruments, in the music beeing played?
Waiting for your kind atention to help me to scape from the deep monster of ignorance that is sucking me to hell!
regards,
Carlos
Reason why, i have asked him to produce a more detail text about the amplifier operation, as something may be needed as technical informations, and in special, the reasons for this thopologie choice.
I remember, he already published a page with specifications, the more common, distortions and levels, do not remember if he had informed that, i suppose not, as you are asking.
Michael may know, but i really do not know Kanwar, what is the sonic result of good damping compared to bad damping factor?
Can you please explain me?... as i really do not know, and the ones that ask some, need to know?
May i understand a bad damping as something as a mismatch?... something i remember, from Radio Frequency, as Standing wave ratio..... mismatch between voltage and current, phase errors...practical result is energy flowing back to Radio Frequency amplifiers and finally destroying the output components... also, the mismatched components are not transmitted to Antenna, resulting in a loss of energy.
I do not remember very well Kanwar, but damping was very important, as specifications in the eigthies, or even nineties.... the whole idea i have about the subject, may be the difference of voltage present in the output with amplifier loaded or not loaded...something alike that.
Can you instruct me please Kanwar?
And in special, if this damping factor have influences, easy to perceive, without instruments, in the music beeing played?
Waiting for your kind atention to help me to scape from the deep monster of ignorance that is sucking me to hell!
regards,
Carlos
Workhorse said:
Hi Kanwar !
You can see some specs of the amp here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=684856#post684856
There is one typo, i wrote "TIM" instead of "IMD"...
DF for 1khz into 8ohms is ~1200. DF is heavily reduced by the outputcoil,
and so drops to 120 at 20khz.
before outputcoil it is 12000 at 1khz and 6000 at 20khz... (might be wrong)
I did not optimize for DF, but as i use plenty of feedback, the DF is quite high.
The fact that a such simple coil reduces DF that dramatically tells me
that there is not much left when the signal finally reaches the voicecoil
of the speaker ?
Carlos, principally the DF describes the amp's ability to control the
speaker, a too low DF results in unprecise and not tight bass.
Some people do like it, i don't...
Mike
Thank you Michael, the damping informs were received and understood
Informs that arrived from Graham, from Hugh and from you i do not discuss.
When there are points where you three do not agree, i just put and interrogation point, to observe, listening.... and for future, i will discover the real results...for future, as i am not interested to discover the one can send the jet stream more distant related the other one ...do you remember?, young guys competition, to see the one produces more distant liquid jet? (OK!...may be some plastic bag smashed with watter inside...if you prefer...can be other liquid too...depends on you, my friends will fast understand the meaning off).... those competition do not interest me, as i think competition sometimes are worst than cooperation...when cooperation can be best all the times.
But people has resistance to change minds.
I could not perceive difference, listening, by a Miller capacitor applied in the VAS and an RC between the differential colectors...also VAS base capacitor to ground ... all them sound alike when not have its capacitive value multiplied by the transistor gain, resulting in enormous monster capacitor filtering sound.... those three situations, as i could test, sound almost the same...maybe simulators can perceive differences.... well, i am not a simulator to perceive those details.... also i cannot listen a fly wisper togethe the simultaneous presence of a thunder. But some instruments can capture that. Those situations, i think that the instruments are really good for...well...well... well...they can be were they are.
As result, very good people prefere to work parallel.... and parallel lines will never joint one each other...waist of thinking energy that sittuation of work made in parallel...Japanese decided things together.... reason why they jumped fast to the position they had...and needed to reduce their efficiency, as this was creating problems.
I was thinking what three guys alike Hugh, Michael and Graham could do together... deleting their own "Belief brain circuit"... Graham belief class A is the one....Michael that Simetrical Assymetrical is the one.... Hugh that Bootstrap is the one...when in the reality...the real "one" will never be found...as they work in parallel....strange and funny world, sometimes tragic!
Those life moments i think how good can be have real power... to have real money.... the steps are:
Buy entirelly AKSA factory and keep Hugh with 51 percent to keep bootstrap beeing done...from now to ethernity.
Buy entirelly the Synetic Building .
Construct a foundation to take care of Graham Medical problems.
And put those guys into teleconference till the day a result product from them all together appear..... they will have to find solutions together, and beeing completely true all the time, lye detectors analising their suggestions to guarantee real conversation... virtual figth permitted...dishes provided to trown against shield glass that will protect the teleconference monitors... not limit check books for both three guys, to every expense they need with family...keeping them living in their homes, not to have emotionally unstable lifes.
The order for them all... Construct three magnificent amplifiers, something that can beat GEM, AKSA and SYMASSYM, and made three models, one class A, other very cheap (symassym) and another one with very special material applied, wonderfull wood, especial capacitors, the best metals, the best tubes, knobs and all stuff.
But... this is a dream only.... as having power and money, probably i was beeing ordering zilions of cheap board from Asia, joining with cheap plastic boxes from Mexico, and together Brazilian cheap and awfull instruction manuals..... my sound products will result commom, my profit very nice and those good guys i told, will be considered by myself, beeing big business man:
..."they are only fanatics without big enterprise vision"
Well...that's life!....but i have not to pay any tax for dreams alike that!
regards,
Carlos
Informs that arrived from Graham, from Hugh and from you i do not discuss.
When there are points where you three do not agree, i just put and interrogation point, to observe, listening.... and for future, i will discover the real results...for future, as i am not interested to discover the one can send the jet stream more distant related the other one ...do you remember?, young guys competition, to see the one produces more distant liquid jet? (OK!...may be some plastic bag smashed with watter inside...if you prefer...can be other liquid too...depends on you, my friends will fast understand the meaning off).... those competition do not interest me, as i think competition sometimes are worst than cooperation...when cooperation can be best all the times.
But people has resistance to change minds.
I could not perceive difference, listening, by a Miller capacitor applied in the VAS and an RC between the differential colectors...also VAS base capacitor to ground ... all them sound alike when not have its capacitive value multiplied by the transistor gain, resulting in enormous monster capacitor filtering sound.... those three situations, as i could test, sound almost the same...maybe simulators can perceive differences.... well, i am not a simulator to perceive those details.... also i cannot listen a fly wisper togethe the simultaneous presence of a thunder. But some instruments can capture that. Those situations, i think that the instruments are really good for...well...well... well...they can be were they are.
As result, very good people prefere to work parallel.... and parallel lines will never joint one each other...waist of thinking energy that sittuation of work made in parallel...Japanese decided things together.... reason why they jumped fast to the position they had...and needed to reduce their efficiency, as this was creating problems.
I was thinking what three guys alike Hugh, Michael and Graham could do together... deleting their own "Belief brain circuit"... Graham belief class A is the one....Michael that Simetrical Assymetrical is the one.... Hugh that Bootstrap is the one...when in the reality...the real "one" will never be found...as they work in parallel....strange and funny world, sometimes tragic!
Those life moments i think how good can be have real power... to have real money.... the steps are:
Buy entirelly AKSA factory and keep Hugh with 51 percent to keep bootstrap beeing done...from now to ethernity.
Buy entirelly the Synetic Building .
Construct a foundation to take care of Graham Medical problems.
And put those guys into teleconference till the day a result product from them all together appear..... they will have to find solutions together, and beeing completely true all the time, lye detectors analising their suggestions to guarantee real conversation... virtual figth permitted...dishes provided to trown against shield glass that will protect the teleconference monitors... not limit check books for both three guys, to every expense they need with family...keeping them living in their homes, not to have emotionally unstable lifes.
The order for them all... Construct three magnificent amplifiers, something that can beat GEM, AKSA and SYMASSYM, and made three models, one class A, other very cheap (symassym) and another one with very special material applied, wonderfull wood, especial capacitors, the best metals, the best tubes, knobs and all stuff.
But... this is a dream only.... as having power and money, probably i was beeing ordering zilions of cheap board from Asia, joining with cheap plastic boxes from Mexico, and together Brazilian cheap and awfull instruction manuals..... my sound products will result commom, my profit very nice and those good guys i told, will be considered by myself, beeing big business man:
..."they are only fanatics without big enterprise vision"
Well...that's life!....but i have not to pay any tax for dreams alike that!
regards,
Carlos
Just to complete my idea...some paragraphs i could not edit, on time, in the above
thread...here are some final comments:
You may think...why this noisy brazilian, always with this same old song... always GEM, SYMASSYM and AKSA.... always the same song of a beach (ahahahah... waves breaking?) conversation....
Well guys, your amplifier may destroy..smash, erase those i use to use as reference and examples...but i did not construct them..so..i cannot tell a word positive or negative about them...i can only talk, about things i have done and compared.
Do the same...construct and compare...test them and publish them..also search for guys to evaluate for you, in a fair A to B comparison....also you can use computer plots if you prefer...but the problem is that people is lazy to construct and turns pisted with the ones move their essex (i have scaped again...from censors)....hummmm SY is a hell clever!....he will put big charlie again inside the rails and will not delay too much!
regards
Carlos
thread...here are some final comments:
You may think...why this noisy brazilian, always with this same old song... always GEM, SYMASSYM and AKSA.... always the same song of a beach (ahahahah... waves breaking?) conversation....
Well guys, your amplifier may destroy..smash, erase those i use to use as reference and examples...but i did not construct them..so..i cannot tell a word positive or negative about them...i can only talk, about things i have done and compared.
Do the same...construct and compare...test them and publish them..also search for guys to evaluate for you, in a fair A to B comparison....also you can use computer plots if you prefer...but the problem is that people is lazy to construct and turns pisted with the ones move their essex (i have scaped again...from censors)....hummmm SY is a hell clever!....he will put big charlie again inside the rails and will not delay too much!
regards
Carlos
OK Carlos.
Gracias por la información.
My current amplifier is very old amplifier (Philips 50W, with single diff input, no miller cap, double bootstrapping in VAS, and quasi complementary output).
Recently, I purchase a burnt amplifier. A Kenwood KA59, similar KA89, model 1989. Kenwood KA 59-89 is similar topology with Sansui AU 717 and Symassym. At the present, my Kenwood are in repairing and i' m desirous to listen my KA 59.
I need and plan to build other amplifier with 120 or 150 W for channel.
I am following differents threads. I'm interested to know the tendency topology amplifiers.
My doubt is to choose wich topology:
- Sansui Au 717, Kenwood KA 59-89, Symassym?
- Current feedback, Accuphase E 308..., Etalon, Pioneer M5?
- Other topology, Creek 4330 (diff, single vas, phase spliter output.) or Zeta amplifier (too phase spliter output)?.
Carlos, que es un Balacobako?
Regards
Guillermo.
Gracias por la información.
My current amplifier is very old amplifier (Philips 50W, with single diff input, no miller cap, double bootstrapping in VAS, and quasi complementary output).
Recently, I purchase a burnt amplifier. A Kenwood KA59, similar KA89, model 1989. Kenwood KA 59-89 is similar topology with Sansui AU 717 and Symassym. At the present, my Kenwood are in repairing and i' m desirous to listen my KA 59.
I need and plan to build other amplifier with 120 or 150 W for channel.
I am following differents threads. I'm interested to know the tendency topology amplifiers.
My doubt is to choose wich topology:
- Sansui Au 717, Kenwood KA 59-89, Symassym?
- Current feedback, Accuphase E 308..., Etalon, Pioneer M5?
- Other topology, Creek 4330 (diff, single vas, phase spliter output.) or Zeta amplifier (too phase spliter output)?.
Carlos, que es un Balacobako?
Regards
Guillermo.
Kenwood KA59-89
Here Kenwood KA89.
The KA89 had 3 diff. similar the Electrocompanient and Sansui AU 717.
Is better 2 or 3 diff in the input?
Guillermo
Here Kenwood KA89.
The KA89 had 3 diff. similar the Electrocompanient and Sansui AU 717.
Is better 2 or 3 diff in the input?
Guillermo
MikeB said:
This is an interesting point, but one with a key hidden assumption for modern commercial speakers. It is assumed that a high damping factor is good, because the speakers were designed for amps with a high DF. But there is no reason why this must be the case. In the end, DF is a sum of the mechanical damping of the driver/enclosure and the electrical damping of the driver/amplifier. In principle, the appropriate final DF can be arrived at from either direction. We are DIY, we can do what we want.
I'm a little surprised that we don't see more projects, wherein the amp/speaker is designed as a unit, because then we have more degrees of freedom. I commonly see projects that involve bi-amping, and tri-amping. My own project will have 4 amps per side (1500up, 350-1500, about 50-350, 50down). But there are very few amp designs that are optimized specifically for these multi-amp systems. I've done a lot of reading on this forum over the last year, and have seen a lot of passioned argument over how to get good sound, and even what that means. To me, I think it means having the SYSTEM create an illusion of the artist making music in front of me, maybe in my room, maybe in the concert hall (ideally, my choice of either). For that, I think we need reasonable tonal accuracy, and that we need to maintain the phase relationships of the complex signal.** I think that is what designers like Mike, and Graham are trying to achieve. Certainly an amp that can perform this task over the entire audio range can also do it well over a subset of that range. But I also think that job has to be easier and the individual pieces simpler and cheaper if the spectrum is broken up into smaller pieces. I wonder why I don't see more of that.
**Now it also seems likely that in some cases people prefer systems that are not accurate in the scientific sense, but that, to them, create a more realistic illusion. I think that is also a perfectly valid goal, but it would seem to be much more hit and miss from a design/development point of view.
Sheldon
Yes, of course the work is referenced in something.
Michael have a very expensive, well evaluate by the Stereo Magazines Yamaha Surround system....but he never apreciate completely the trebles and the bass.
He said bass punch was week...not so big energy, despite the amplifier can reach 150 watts, bass was strange to him.
Also he perceive the treble as mufled.
The decision was to make something better in bass and trebles, without losses in mid range...something cheap and with common used forum voltages.
I suggest him not to use only Yamaha...to construct some JLH design, as the one is considered good....so...if someday he decided to show his design, he could use this reference.... same bass as...better treble than....you know..use the same language as forum guys.....JLH beeing good.... so good as is more representative than my olde XPTO amplifier.
And he did that...he constructed and made tests...many guys helped him to evaluate...he also made comparison with the many units he constructed and sent to junk!...as non aprooved designs and used other equipments to evaluate.
He made his goal...price is low, power is good, bass punch is excelent and treble is very brigth and natural..without destruct the mid range frequencies.
That may have (and i am sure exist) amplifiers better than Symassym...i have no doubts that those equipments exist... we only could not listen to them.
That theorical part i cannot answer, cannot help..... i just go listening and feeling if good or not...but i cannot describe all the feelings and the reason of them
Also, a surfer cannot describe his movements in steps.
Now 3 pound at rigth with the angle of 31 degrees.
Now ballance board going backwards and elevating the point
Now...
I think surfer goes surfing without that analises that will delay much more than the movements the man does.
I have strong suspection that the brain correct a lot of things...so... the testing must be done fast...not to give time to brain adjust....this can explain why people can listen to bad sounds and feel good.
regards,
Carlos
Michael have a very expensive, well evaluate by the Stereo Magazines Yamaha Surround system....but he never apreciate completely the trebles and the bass.
He said bass punch was week...not so big energy, despite the amplifier can reach 150 watts, bass was strange to him.
Also he perceive the treble as mufled.
The decision was to make something better in bass and trebles, without losses in mid range...something cheap and with common used forum voltages.
I suggest him not to use only Yamaha...to construct some JLH design, as the one is considered good....so...if someday he decided to show his design, he could use this reference.... same bass as...better treble than....you know..use the same language as forum guys.....JLH beeing good.... so good as is more representative than my olde XPTO amplifier.
And he did that...he constructed and made tests...many guys helped him to evaluate...he also made comparison with the many units he constructed and sent to junk!...as non aprooved designs and used other equipments to evaluate.
He made his goal...price is low, power is good, bass punch is excelent and treble is very brigth and natural..without destruct the mid range frequencies.
That may have (and i am sure exist) amplifiers better than Symassym...i have no doubts that those equipments exist... we only could not listen to them.
That theorical part i cannot answer, cannot help..... i just go listening and feeling if good or not...but i cannot describe all the feelings and the reason of them
Also, a surfer cannot describe his movements in steps.
Now 3 pound at rigth with the angle of 31 degrees.
Now ballance board going backwards and elevating the point
Now...
I think surfer goes surfing without that analises that will delay much more than the movements the man does.
I have strong suspection that the brain correct a lot of things...so... the testing must be done fast...not to give time to brain adjust....this can explain why people can listen to bad sounds and feel good.
regards,
Carlos
Geirin, i cannot suggest you nothing, as i do not know those amplifier you are
Showing the models to us...maybe the Sansuí..but i do not remember the model.
Related Balacobako...i was thinking was an Argentinian expression...so...i see that it is not.
I was just thinking to ask you the same thing.
regards,
Carlos
Showing the models to us...maybe the Sansuí..but i do not remember the model.
Related Balacobako...i was thinking was an Argentinian expression...so...i see that it is not.
I was just thinking to ask you the same thing.
regards,
Carlos
Re: Yes, of course the work is referenced in something.
Ah, but the best ones do, at least to some extent. And others copy the best. They look at video in regular speed and slow motion and stop frame. Then they consider what motions and positions go into generating the most speed, hardest turns, etc.. Then they practice on perfecting those skills so that they don't have to think about them consciously. The same for all great atheletes, I think. Of course, the best also have skills and flair that cannot be duplicated by those of ordinary talent. And they decide when to do what and how to put different moves together in a seamless way. There is a lot of art in that. It used to be all art. The best now use science (coaching, film study, specific conditioning and exercise) too.
Sheldon
P.S. My question about designing speaker/amp systems had nothing directly to do with Mike's amp. It's just that the damping factor issue got me thinking about various ways it can be addressed, and the fact that only one of those is commonly used. I understand why, from the commercial point of view, as it's easier to have a common methodology, i.e., assumption of high DF in the amp. I was just wondering why we don't see people playing around more. Is it because the speaker people and amp people don't have much overlap?
Sheldon
destroyer X said:
Ah, but the best ones do, at least to some extent. And others copy the best. They look at video in regular speed and slow motion and stop frame. Then they consider what motions and positions go into generating the most speed, hardest turns, etc.. Then they practice on perfecting those skills so that they don't have to think about them consciously. The same for all great atheletes, I think. Of course, the best also have skills and flair that cannot be duplicated by those of ordinary talent. And they decide when to do what and how to put different moves together in a seamless way. There is a lot of art in that. It used to be all art. The best now use science (coaching, film study, specific conditioning and exercise) too.
Sheldon
P.S. My question about designing speaker/amp systems had nothing directly to do with Mike's amp. It's just that the damping factor issue got me thinking about various ways it can be addressed, and the fact that only one of those is commonly used. I understand why, from the commercial point of view, as it's easier to have a common methodology, i.e., assumption of high DF in the amp. I was just wondering why we don't see people playing around more. Is it because the speaker people and amp people don't have much overlap?
Sheldon
Ahahahah!... the good ones makes all that in a matter of microseconds during surfing?
hehe....this is very good.... i understood...they study the movements in slow motion watching movies.
And them try to practice those steps.... wonderfull.
regards,
Carlos
hehe....this is very good.... i understood...they study the movements in slow motion watching movies.
And them try to practice those steps.... wonderfull.
regards,
Carlos
Sheldon will leave us for some days, and he was kind to tell me by mail
This way, i am informing you all, as there are many guys waiting for his evaluation, the we will produce a break in this thread...for a while, waiting Sheldon return, and also waiting Michael have time enougth to describe his amplifier.
I really do not know if he will do it or not.
As Michael is those ones that will produce a very good work, and those things need a lot of time of reflection and arrangements.
I think he has not this time...so....may not publish those things
soon.
Here is Sheldon informs send to me:
"I'm leaving town on Tuesday for a couple of weeks. I'll check e-mail
and the forum when I can, but amp tests will have to wait until I
return. In the meantime, keep it coming."
Well.... we gonna try to invent some to keep thread alive...but really i cannot imagine what i can do.
regards,
Carlos
This way, i am informing you all, as there are many guys waiting for his evaluation, the we will produce a break in this thread...for a while, waiting Sheldon return, and also waiting Michael have time enougth to describe his amplifier.
I really do not know if he will do it or not.
As Michael is those ones that will produce a very good work, and those things need a lot of time of reflection and arrangements.
I think he has not this time...so....may not publish those things
soon.
Here is Sheldon informs send to me:
"I'm leaving town on Tuesday for a couple of weeks. I'll check e-mail
and the forum when I can, but amp tests will have to wait until I
return. In the meantime, keep it coming."
Well.... we gonna try to invent some to keep thread alive...but really i cannot imagine what i can do.
regards,
Carlos
Thanks MikeB,
The Damping Factor of your amp is quite high [awesome]and i am very much immpressed with that!...
Bipolar amps are easily designed with High DF, whereas special considerations must be taken into account when using mosfets at the output because they doenst turn-off to well ith passive drive resistance ...An active turn-off is required therefore .. individual push-pull drivers are required to ensure high DF....
Destroyer X,
Take a 12" woofer [open terminals] ... now tap or stroke its cone with your fingers/hand in order to hear a bass thump...hear it...
now repeat the above experiment with speaker terminals shorted together to each other .. tap the cone and now again hear the Thump...You will definately hear the difference from previous experiment...
Open terminal ----relates to low or Zero damping...
Shorted terminals ----related to very high damping factor ----Tight BASS..
This corressponds to the fact that the amp having low internal impedance on its output terminals when connected to a speaker would show a high damping factor..because the back emf from the speaker is get shorted by the extremely low output impedance of amp..thus the bass sound tight....its very important measure of the controlling of motion of speaker cone by the amp...
DF came into picture only when amp is subjected to drive high excursion Large cone mass -large diameter cone woofers especially 12-18" subwoofers...with large coil inductance thus exerting large amount of back emf on the amp......If the amp doesn't have high DF the speaker cone simply starts ringing and large cone movement will eventaully degrade the bass output and hence SPL...
Similarly when driving Subwoofers with Large SPL signal especially low frequency one.. the amp must have enough DF to counteract the back Emf or the speaker would encounter excessive damage due to large cone movements...
Hope you understand..
K a n w a r
The Damping Factor of your amp is quite high [awesome]and i am very much immpressed with that!...
Bipolar amps are easily designed with High DF, whereas special considerations must be taken into account when using mosfets at the output because they doenst turn-off to well ith passive drive resistance ...An active turn-off is required therefore .. individual push-pull drivers are required to ensure high DF....
Destroyer X,
Take a 12" woofer [open terminals] ... now tap or stroke its cone with your fingers/hand in order to hear a bass thump...hear it...
now repeat the above experiment with speaker terminals shorted together to each other .. tap the cone and now again hear the Thump...You will definately hear the difference from previous experiment...
Open terminal ----relates to low or Zero damping...
Shorted terminals ----related to very high damping factor ----Tight BASS..
This corressponds to the fact that the amp having low internal impedance on its output terminals when connected to a speaker would show a high damping factor..because the back emf from the speaker is get shorted by the extremely low output impedance of amp..thus the bass sound tight....its very important measure of the controlling of motion of speaker cone by the amp...
DF came into picture only when amp is subjected to drive high excursion Large cone mass -large diameter cone woofers especially 12-18" subwoofers...with large coil inductance thus exerting large amount of back emf on the amp......If the amp doesn't have high DF the speaker cone simply starts ringing and large cone movement will eventaully degrade the bass output and hence SPL...
Similarly when driving Subwoofers with Large SPL signal especially low frequency one.. the amp must have enough DF to counteract the back Emf or the speaker would encounter excessive damage due to large cone movements...
Hope you understand..
K a n w a r
Hi Kanwar,
I note your comments about cone excursion and it is my belief that, when confronted with high cone excursion/high power extended bass situations that it is desirable to have active filters and some of my most successful past experiences have been with active eq extension of bass followed by steep 'out of band' suppression.
I favour subs with a Q=2 boost filter to equalise and also provide 40dB filtering at 0.1f0. It pumps!!! At the same time reducing cone excursion and THD!
Cheers,
Greg
I note your comments about cone excursion and it is my belief that, when confronted with high cone excursion/high power extended bass situations that it is desirable to have active filters and some of my most successful past experiences have been with active eq extension of bass followed by steep 'out of band' suppression.
I favour subs with a Q=2 boost filter to equalise and also provide 40dB filtering at 0.1f0. It pumps!!! At the same time reducing cone excursion and THD!
Cheers,
Greg
I will do the experiment now Kanwar...thank you!
A real world experiment is nice...and understanding is complete this way.
thanks
regards,
Carlos
A real world experiment is nice...and understanding is complete this way.
thanks
regards,
Carlos