Hi Guys,
I should get transformers later this week. Maybe I'll have time for a listening session before early next week. If not, I'll have to wait a couple of weeks, as I'll be out of town for a while.
Carlos, I have good reason to be humble, as the following questions will demonstrate. I think Mike had recommended the silver mica, and there is an surplus electronics store near me that has these caps cheap ($0.25ea), and various polystyrene too.
Meanwhile, a couple of grounding questions. I have all the grounds on a single 1.2mm wire as a bus. From one end to the other it goes like this; input ground, feedback ground, ccs ground, 2n5401 base ground, vas ground, rail bypass grounds, speaker common and zobel. Pretty much like the schematic from left to right, except that all the rail bypass caps are grounded near the right end.
I can easily cut this bus wire into two or more segments and use connecting wires to bring the segments to a star at the common return. I'm thinking that input and feedback should go together on a separate segment, and that the ccs, 5402 base, vas, and bypass caps are not too sensitive to small ground voltages, so just the one split, or?
Thanks,
Sheldon
I should get transformers later this week. Maybe I'll have time for a listening session before early next week. If not, I'll have to wait a couple of weeks, as I'll be out of town for a while.
Carlos, I have good reason to be humble, as the following questions will demonstrate. I think Mike had recommended the silver mica, and there is an surplus electronics store near me that has these caps cheap ($0.25ea), and various polystyrene too.
Meanwhile, a couple of grounding questions. I have all the grounds on a single 1.2mm wire as a bus. From one end to the other it goes like this; input ground, feedback ground, ccs ground, 2n5401 base ground, vas ground, rail bypass grounds, speaker common and zobel. Pretty much like the schematic from left to right, except that all the rail bypass caps are grounded near the right end.
I can easily cut this bus wire into two or more segments and use connecting wires to bring the segments to a star at the common return. I'm thinking that input and feedback should go together on a separate segment, and that the ccs, 5402 base, vas, and bypass caps are not too sensitive to small ground voltages, so just the one split, or?
Thanks,
Sheldon
I really do not know the better way...as i have repeated thousand times the same
Type of connection, and never had hum problems.
I suppose the way i made the things, the distance to metal chassis that represents small caps that have been helping me all those years.
Lets wait "Doktor Michael", and i suppose he will prefer the star ground with everything going into same grounding point.
My way to to is a "belt ground".... around the board i use do install a very thick copper with enormous ammounts of solder surrounding all the board... a ring ground, a closed coil... a short circuited loop...will make one sketch showing the idea...very simple and effective, as practice showing that hum is something that i listen when i put the board directly over some transformer.
Tell us more, if possible, in advance, alike children Michael and I could not wait, we are sharing mails asking one each other...did Sheldon told some?.... have it made his analisis?.... did he apreciate our baby? (his baby in the reality, i am capturing a small piece of this glory to myself).
You are beeing reserved to talk,so i imagine you may face problems.... but have checked all VBEs, and the invertion did not burned nothing... this question of Hum is creating enomous concern my side Shel... are you having hum?
Oh my God...so old.... and accept guys calling me Charlotte....i cannot believe that....big Charlie, the terrible guy of the University Parking place, the elevator damned guy, behing the Apple three...those girls will not believe!!!
Those amplifiers, AKSA, GEM and SYMASSYM 4 are units that i put my name and honor on them, things to trust, and everyone that find something bad can call me Charlotte...oh God!!!...protect big Charlie!!!
If something fail..i will be damned...but i am here to face... go ahead!...point with precision on the target.... shot me fast!
regards,
Carlos
Type of connection, and never had hum problems.
I suppose the way i made the things, the distance to metal chassis that represents small caps that have been helping me all those years.
Lets wait "Doktor Michael", and i suppose he will prefer the star ground with everything going into same grounding point.
My way to to is a "belt ground".... around the board i use do install a very thick copper with enormous ammounts of solder surrounding all the board... a ring ground, a closed coil... a short circuited loop...will make one sketch showing the idea...very simple and effective, as practice showing that hum is something that i listen when i put the board directly over some transformer.
Tell us more, if possible, in advance, alike children Michael and I could not wait, we are sharing mails asking one each other...did Sheldon told some?.... have it made his analisis?.... did he apreciate our baby? (his baby in the reality, i am capturing a small piece of this glory to myself).
You are beeing reserved to talk,so i imagine you may face problems.... but have checked all VBEs, and the invertion did not burned nothing... this question of Hum is creating enomous concern my side Shel... are you having hum?
Oh my God...so old.... and accept guys calling me Charlotte....i cannot believe that....big Charlie, the terrible guy of the University Parking place, the elevator damned guy, behing the Apple three...those girls will not believe!!!
Those amplifiers, AKSA, GEM and SYMASSYM 4 are units that i put my name and honor on them, things to trust, and everyone that find something bad can call me Charlotte...oh God!!!...protect big Charlie!!!
If something fail..i will be damned...but i am here to face... go ahead!...point with precision on the target.... shot me fast!
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Thanks Carlos,
I've been slowed down the last couple of days due to some sort of cold/flu bug going around. That's why I haven't tried the music files you sent - thank you, by the way - I'll do that today, as I'm back up to full speed.
As for hum; nothing when I set up the amp in my office. I did get a little hum (2.5mv) when I plugged it into my system. So that may be a dirty ground there. But I didn't spend any time trying to find the source. Also, everything was held together with clip leads. I was mainly trying to optimize the set-up and minimize any sensitivity to ground noise, etc..
If I can figure out how to convert some digital pics to a smaller file, I'll post some later today.
Sheldon
I've been slowed down the last couple of days due to some sort of cold/flu bug going around. That's why I haven't tried the music files you sent - thank you, by the way - I'll do that today, as I'm back up to full speed.
As for hum; nothing when I set up the amp in my office. I did get a little hum (2.5mv) when I plugged it into my system. So that may be a dirty ground there. But I didn't spend any time trying to find the source. Also, everything was held together with clip leads. I was mainly trying to optimize the set-up and minimize any sensitivity to ground noise, etc..
If I can figure out how to convert some digital pics to a smaller file, I'll post some later today.
Sheldon
Hi Sheldon !
Sorry for my late response...
About the grounding, take a look to my board-design:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=707913&stamp=1124661679
There you see, that feedback and input share one gnd. The feedback-gnd
is connected to the inputgnd, and from there is the connection to the
groundstar.
This is quite important, as any difference between feedbackgnd and
inputgnd gets amplified about factor 32.000, this means that a difference
of 1mv would already drive the amp into saturation.
I would say, you should have 3 grounds, one for input/feedback,
one for vas/ccs/cascode (the one with the base to gnd), and the rest.
This would make 2 splits in your case...
2.5mv hum, this should not be audible yet ? Of course, if avoidable
you should avoid it. I was not able to measure any on my board,
with the scope set to 2mv/div. The scope showed only a 500khz
and a 13mhz signal at ~0.5mv, but this keeps with the amp beeing
switched off... (obviously someone in the house has a ClassD...😀)
Mike
Sorry for my late response...
About the grounding, take a look to my board-design:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=707913&stamp=1124661679
There you see, that feedback and input share one gnd. The feedback-gnd
is connected to the inputgnd, and from there is the connection to the
groundstar.
This is quite important, as any difference between feedbackgnd and
inputgnd gets amplified about factor 32.000, this means that a difference
of 1mv would already drive the amp into saturation.
I would say, you should have 3 grounds, one for input/feedback,
one for vas/ccs/cascode (the one with the base to gnd), and the rest.
This would make 2 splits in your case...
2.5mv hum, this should not be audible yet ? Of course, if avoidable
you should avoid it. I was not able to measure any on my board,
with the scope set to 2mv/div. The scope showed only a 500khz
and a 13mhz signal at ~0.5mv, but this keeps with the amp beeing
switched off... (obviously someone in the house has a ClassD...😀)
Mike
Grumpf!!!...Grrrrrr! Michael, what do you have against class D man?
Just kidding, i know why he made that, and i am sure that i am the target...we use to do that one each other...very old joke between us...he is not against class D, and i do not defend class D...only kidding.... this German is a very nice guy, he has sense of humor, he has good mood.
Sheldon, those programs that work with image:
ACDSee
Thumbs Plus
Photoshop
Paint Pro
And many others have the button "resise", where you can reduce to 800 by 600 to use it in our forum.
Also you can save every image already openned, to many image formats, and GIF, JPEG, Adobe PDF, Winzip and some others are accepted by our forum. During the process of save as, you can click in quality and reduce the quality (data size) in some percentual to fit your needs
Avatar are 75 by 75 pixel sized image.... well, you may already know those things, but just trying to help, if, you have not this kind of PC use in your daily activities.
Interesting, i used to go to the beach when i have flu...under the sun, or swiming near sharks.... do not know why, maybe hot weather, 28 degrées centigrades watter.... well, it goes away.
Very dangerous here to swim near sharks, as i have the body envelope, alike the shark food..... a surffer, horizontally layed down over his board is alike food too, when observed from underwatter.... Small sea lions shape or other kind of food alike....they are not clever...they bite everything to realise if the material is good food or not....i hate those animals, they use to eat 5 guys, the average, each year here...and always trying to realise if food or not food.... taking of enormous pieces of meat, or even entire legs or arms...the guys normally die...infection very hard here, as ocean watter in our beaches are mixed with river watter... and in third world, river is the same as garbage can... people send a lot of awfull things to rivers here.... a problem of education that we are trying to fix.... cannot protect 32 Kilometers of continuous beach, the ones shark attack, the natural reefs could not keep them away...other fish protection is very expensive when beach is too big.
Do not worry about music i sent..if too much big to your internet speed...delete it...no problem.... as i have very fast speed here, there are many moments that i do not remember that many guys are still working with 33K modem (do not know if your local case), but in Europe, very old and small towns, use slow speed systems...Goodluck, the Michael's place is around 10M old Motorola, carbon and steam moved Modem...and the telephonic system there use a turtle as simbol....ahahaha...point to me Miky!!!!
regards,
Carlos
Just kidding, i know why he made that, and i am sure that i am the target...we use to do that one each other...very old joke between us...he is not against class D, and i do not defend class D...only kidding.... this German is a very nice guy, he has sense of humor, he has good mood.
Sheldon, those programs that work with image:
ACDSee
Thumbs Plus
Photoshop
Paint Pro
And many others have the button "resise", where you can reduce to 800 by 600 to use it in our forum.
Also you can save every image already openned, to many image formats, and GIF, JPEG, Adobe PDF, Winzip and some others are accepted by our forum. During the process of save as, you can click in quality and reduce the quality (data size) in some percentual to fit your needs
Avatar are 75 by 75 pixel sized image.... well, you may already know those things, but just trying to help, if, you have not this kind of PC use in your daily activities.
Interesting, i used to go to the beach when i have flu...under the sun, or swiming near sharks.... do not know why, maybe hot weather, 28 degrées centigrades watter.... well, it goes away.
Very dangerous here to swim near sharks, as i have the body envelope, alike the shark food..... a surffer, horizontally layed down over his board is alike food too, when observed from underwatter.... Small sea lions shape or other kind of food alike....they are not clever...they bite everything to realise if the material is good food or not....i hate those animals, they use to eat 5 guys, the average, each year here...and always trying to realise if food or not food.... taking of enormous pieces of meat, or even entire legs or arms...the guys normally die...infection very hard here, as ocean watter in our beaches are mixed with river watter... and in third world, river is the same as garbage can... people send a lot of awfull things to rivers here.... a problem of education that we are trying to fix.... cannot protect 32 Kilometers of continuous beach, the ones shark attack, the natural reefs could not keep them away...other fish protection is very expensive when beach is too big.
Do not worry about music i sent..if too much big to your internet speed...delete it...no problem.... as i have very fast speed here, there are many moments that i do not remember that many guys are still working with 33K modem (do not know if your local case), but in Europe, very old and small towns, use slow speed systems...Goodluck, the Michael's place is around 10M old Motorola, carbon and steam moved Modem...and the telephonic system there use a turtle as simbol....ahahaha...point to me Miky!!!!
regards,
Carlos
Re: Grumpf!!!...Grrrrrr! Michael, what do you have against class D man?
GRRR ! You know i have only 28k modem at home... Sending me 7mb
mp3s, twice... Grumpf ! Okay, will listen to them later...
ClassD, i have just a nightmare, everybody having ClassD with cheap
outputfilters... Already one single in the house visible on the scope...
I will only need 2 long cables to feed my lightbulbs ! 😀
Mike
destroyer X said:
GRRR ! You know i have only 28k modem at home... Sending me 7mb
mp3s, twice... Grumpf ! Okay, will listen to them later...
ClassD, i have just a nightmare, everybody having ClassD with cheap
outputfilters... Already one single in the house visible on the scope...
I will only need 2 long cables to feed my lightbulbs ! 😀
Mike
Thanks,
Mike, the inputs are at one end, the vas ccs and cascode in the middle and the ps gnd and speaker common at the other end, so they are kind of like a fuzzy star. I separated at the input end and ran a wire to the power/speaker common. Now the star is a little sharper. We'll see, but I think this should work fine now.
Carlos,
Not so many sharks here in SoCal. But better we find ways to stay out of their way than to try and wipe them all out, as we have done to so many large predators in the past. No top dog in the kennel means that the whole system falls apart. As for the music, I listened to it no problem. Thanks, some nice stuff.
I have cable, so modem speed is not the problem. Brain speed is the problem - that, and brain data storage facilities. It's full, so when I learn new stuff, something old is pushed out or further back. Unfortunately, I don't choose what to forget or bury, my brain does. Someday I will forget my name, or worse, my wife's name. The technical name for this disorder is CRS (Can't Remember, Shi - errr Stuff). this disorder is progressive, so it gets worse with time. In the first stage the emphasis is on the first word. The next stage, emphasis is on the second, and so on.
I fumbled around with adobe, and if it worked the picture should show up. The camera batteries died, so will have to wait for some better ones.
Sheldon
Mike, the inputs are at one end, the vas ccs and cascode in the middle and the ps gnd and speaker common at the other end, so they are kind of like a fuzzy star. I separated at the input end and ran a wire to the power/speaker common. Now the star is a little sharper. We'll see, but I think this should work fine now.
Carlos,
Not so many sharks here in SoCal. But better we find ways to stay out of their way than to try and wipe them all out, as we have done to so many large predators in the past. No top dog in the kennel means that the whole system falls apart. As for the music, I listened to it no problem. Thanks, some nice stuff.
I have cable, so modem speed is not the problem. Brain speed is the problem - that, and brain data storage facilities. It's full, so when I learn new stuff, something old is pushed out or further back. Unfortunately, I don't choose what to forget or bury, my brain does. Someday I will forget my name, or worse, my wife's name. The technical name for this disorder is CRS (Can't Remember, Shi - errr Stuff). this disorder is progressive, so it gets worse with time. In the first stage the emphasis is on the first word. The next stage, emphasis is on the second, and so on.
I fumbled around with adobe, and if it worked the picture should show up. The camera batteries died, so will have to wait for some better ones.
Sheldon
Attachments
Nice image Sheldon...if you have patience, upload bigger master images to me.
I do not know that disease.... wish cannot be the ones degenerative.
Michael, be free to delete enormous files i sent...they are small music segments.... 30 minutes using MP3 sampled at 24 K only... a half part of my stock of good musics (i feel this way)...quality not so good, of couse with that sample rate cannot be so good...but has one utility...if one music is apreciated by you, you can order, for free, and i will upload the one to you with 128K or even 256 if you prefer...just that...free offer man...you will not resist..you are a hell curious!... and you have enormous memory stick to put into your pocket.... you can also capture that data fast in your work supercomputers....but i do not know where you use to trow in your memory stick....you always forget it!... maybe you trown it inside...... some good place to avoid rust...ahahahha!
Related your turtle telephon system...may using batteries or some gasoline fuel motor generator... the man using a hammer to make the thing work!.... you are invited to came to brazil..i can sign your permanence visa...here you will have around 750 K of speed....much more than 100K each second speed, and our lines goes everywhere...optical fiber...hehe...made in Germany?...will pay 25 dollares each month and your computer can be plugged on line 24 hours a day.... we are very advanced in communications, we have the best made in Germany...hehe
Problem is that you will turn crazy here...the girls love those thin white ghosts that use to born in Germany...without any color in the skin...alike wax human figures...that turn red as pepper when stay more than 5 minutes under the sunligth, the one that have very clear hairs... our brownies here run to hunt Germans here...this is famous this place!... they are hunted hardly, around 30 percent finished to get married.....hehe
hehe..i have more 30 minutes, with old musics Gerschwinn, Kostelanetz and many others beautifull guys....Tony Bennet, Johnny Mathis, Sinatra, Some pretty Jazz too...some good old blues too.... i have also Nazi long conversations recorded in 1939...but those things i am sure you will not apreciate...i do not apreciate also...historical value only...i have to open a hole to have the old records,buried by Heindrich Grune and family...Hystorical material man...things that Germans need to listen all morning, not to repeat that again..... grumpf...kraut....erkaeze....yeah...Krauterkaeze!...ahahaha!
3 (three) Points of hard provocation for my score!
regards,
Carlos
I do not know that disease.... wish cannot be the ones degenerative.
Michael, be free to delete enormous files i sent...they are small music segments.... 30 minutes using MP3 sampled at 24 K only... a half part of my stock of good musics (i feel this way)...quality not so good, of couse with that sample rate cannot be so good...but has one utility...if one music is apreciated by you, you can order, for free, and i will upload the one to you with 128K or even 256 if you prefer...just that...free offer man...you will not resist..you are a hell curious!... and you have enormous memory stick to put into your pocket.... you can also capture that data fast in your work supercomputers....but i do not know where you use to trow in your memory stick....you always forget it!... maybe you trown it inside...... some good place to avoid rust...ahahahha!
Related your turtle telephon system...may using batteries or some gasoline fuel motor generator... the man using a hammer to make the thing work!.... you are invited to came to brazil..i can sign your permanence visa...here you will have around 750 K of speed....much more than 100K each second speed, and our lines goes everywhere...optical fiber...hehe...made in Germany?...will pay 25 dollares each month and your computer can be plugged on line 24 hours a day.... we are very advanced in communications, we have the best made in Germany...hehe
Problem is that you will turn crazy here...the girls love those thin white ghosts that use to born in Germany...without any color in the skin...alike wax human figures...that turn red as pepper when stay more than 5 minutes under the sunligth, the one that have very clear hairs... our brownies here run to hunt Germans here...this is famous this place!... they are hunted hardly, around 30 percent finished to get married.....hehe
hehe..i have more 30 minutes, with old musics Gerschwinn, Kostelanetz and many others beautifull guys....Tony Bennet, Johnny Mathis, Sinatra, Some pretty Jazz too...some good old blues too.... i have also Nazi long conversations recorded in 1939...but those things i am sure you will not apreciate...i do not apreciate also...historical value only...i have to open a hole to have the old records,buried by Heindrich Grune and family...Hystorical material man...things that Germans need to listen all morning, not to repeat that again..... grumpf...kraut....erkaeze....yeah...Krauterkaeze!...ahahaha!
3 (three) Points of hard provocation for my score!
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Finished the second channel today. It works fine. The DC offset is a bit higher at about 9mv, but unless there is a compelling reason to fiddle with it, I'll leave it at that. As far as the speakers go, that's no problem at all. Residual AC is about 0.3mv, so good too.
When I compare the trimpot setting to get about 12 ma across a 0.22R, it's 112R for the first channel and 103 for the second. This is for a 24V supply. I'll retrim when I get the final 36V power supplies and the rest of the case is built, as the entire case will act as a heat sink/radiator (it will be plate aluminum). When the final setup is finished, I plan the leave the trimmers in place. Is that ok, or would a fixed resistor be better?
I've built to the schematic except: The large feedback cap is 1000uf(I may use these at first for bass), and the input cap will be 10uf. Just because I had some and the decoupling caps are at the far end of the board, I also added a 10nf cap to each rail, so for the input board it's 100uf, 0.1uf, 0.01uf. Finally, the common is lifted from chassis earth with a pair of antiparallel diodes (a trick I got from Kuei over on the tube forum).
I'm very pleased so far. These look like keepers but I'll give them some good exercise once they're fnished. Carlos, I think you'll be able to keep your given name, no problem. Maybe even add a title.
Thanks,
Sheldon
When I compare the trimpot setting to get about 12 ma across a 0.22R, it's 112R for the first channel and 103 for the second. This is for a 24V supply. I'll retrim when I get the final 36V power supplies and the rest of the case is built, as the entire case will act as a heat sink/radiator (it will be plate aluminum). When the final setup is finished, I plan the leave the trimmers in place. Is that ok, or would a fixed resistor be better?
I've built to the schematic except: The large feedback cap is 1000uf(I may use these at first for bass), and the input cap will be 10uf. Just because I had some and the decoupling caps are at the far end of the board, I also added a 10nf cap to each rail, so for the input board it's 100uf, 0.1uf, 0.01uf. Finally, the common is lifted from chassis earth with a pair of antiparallel diodes (a trick I got from Kuei over on the tube forum).
I'm very pleased so far. These look like keepers but I'll give them some good exercise once they're fnished. Carlos, I think you'll be able to keep your given name, no problem. Maybe even add a title.
Thanks,
Sheldon
I saw your images Sheldon...very good, i will wait your answer, as i asked you to let
I asked you to give me the permission to publish.
Pretty work.....i think it is very nice.
I bougth many equipments and boards to dismount, to have parts...i was busy today, and will be more busy dismounting tomorrow.
But i will check if you said ok to publish images.
regards,
Carlos
I asked you to give me the permission to publish.
Pretty work.....i think it is very nice.
I bougth many equipments and boards to dismount, to have parts...i was busy today, and will be more busy dismounting tomorrow.
But i will check if you said ok to publish images.
regards,
Carlos
Re: I saw your images Sheldon...very good, i will wait your answer, as i asked you to let
No problemo, I'd have posted them here if I weren't still so clumsy with photoshop.
Sheldon
destroyer X said:
No problemo, I'd have posted them here if I weren't still so clumsy with photoshop.
Sheldon
