Been a bit frustrating winter trying to update the system for next season.
HOQS Europe has been horrific, and I still have no subs. They now say they cannot deliver them but is also refusing to refund the money unless I write them a mail saying that it was me and not them that cancelled the order, presumably since they do not want to be liable for breaking a deal, so they want me to break it and potentially be liable instead. And soon they will start charging €90 a week for holding my money 🤑
So after dicking me around for months they now extort me holding my funds unless I clear them of their obligations
Worst attitude I have ever experienced from a business, so big warning for HOQS Europe and Sady Veteran!
Also when updating the plates I noticed many exciters has developed an issue with distortion that cannot be helped regardless of how they are mounted. So I'm also working with Soundimports on a warranty claim. They agree that extended use can cause issues with suspension, and now have 64 exciters to go through to see which are affected. I can only make claim for the ones that are broken, but not confident to mount the rest to plates, so will be a considerable loss.
According to Soundimports the new Xcite X32-4 should be better suited for extended high power usage, so ordered some to try, and just made a test plate, and they sound amazing!
So at least some comfort, and I can be glad I hopefully can get something back for the Dayton's since they would been really worth replacing anyway.
Will do some tests later, but have to scrape off the Dayton's and test them for the warranty claim.
I have also found a local builder to make some Type-O CRAM 212, so hopefully I will have some subs by the summer at least.
HOQS Europe has been horrific, and I still have no subs. They now say they cannot deliver them but is also refusing to refund the money unless I write them a mail saying that it was me and not them that cancelled the order, presumably since they do not want to be liable for breaking a deal, so they want me to break it and potentially be liable instead. And soon they will start charging €90 a week for holding my money 🤑
So after dicking me around for months they now extort me holding my funds unless I clear them of their obligations
Worst attitude I have ever experienced from a business, so big warning for HOQS Europe and Sady Veteran!
Also when updating the plates I noticed many exciters has developed an issue with distortion that cannot be helped regardless of how they are mounted. So I'm also working with Soundimports on a warranty claim. They agree that extended use can cause issues with suspension, and now have 64 exciters to go through to see which are affected. I can only make claim for the ones that are broken, but not confident to mount the rest to plates, so will be a considerable loss.
According to Soundimports the new Xcite X32-4 should be better suited for extended high power usage, so ordered some to try, and just made a test plate, and they sound amazing!
So at least some comfort, and I can be glad I hopefully can get something back for the Dayton's since they would been really worth replacing anyway.
Will do some tests later, but have to scrape off the Dayton's and test them for the warranty claim.
I have also found a local builder to make some Type-O CRAM 212, so hopefully I will have some subs by the summer at least.
Indeed it is, although i´m experimenting, namely with the exciter in a mounting hole on the honeycomb to tame the response without EQ. Soundwise seem not to far from polycarbonate honeycomb.
That HQQS must be firmly detracted. Best of luck with the new deal.
Concerning the dayton´s, did Soundimport specify the diference between "extended use" and "extended high power usage"?
Thank`s for the input on the Xcite, i was with some high expectations, and will purchase some.
Experiments continue. Made a nomex/carbon panel, and a nomex paper-epoxy impregnated. The paper panel is much lighter, but of course not as hard and stiff. The carbon has 200 g/sqm skins, too much I think - I'm hesitant to buy the thinner carbon because of the expenses.
The paper panel sounds "better" than the carbon, but that may be because there's less upper mid and high freqencies, and more lows. The paper panel sounds a bit more "cardboard -y", it is an expensive and stiffer cored cardboad panel with impregnated skins after all.
It was again easier to make than I had anticipated.
Pictures with web cam, sorry for the quality.
The paper panel sounds "better" than the carbon, but that may be because there's less upper mid and high freqencies, and more lows. The paper panel sounds a bit more "cardboard -y", it is an expensive and stiffer cored cardboad panel with impregnated skins after all.
It was again easier to make than I had anticipated.
Pictures with web cam, sorry for the quality.
Attachments
@HvdZ
Nice, can you teel a bit more about the process you use?
I did get some nomex and carbon fibre, but only got around to doing some experiments with glass fibre, but found it tricky to ensure that you don't use excessive amounts of epoxy but still get good adhesion, and ended up liking the GPS so much and never got around to try out the carbon. It is a bit tricky since I don't really have good space to work with it, so it has to be right season to be able to do it on the veranda...
I have some of this: https://www.carbix.se/product.html/kolfibervav-flattow-62g/m2-plain
Designed some grills for my plates now to add some protection for the GPS, and will probably stick with that for this version of the speakers, but I'm very curious about lamination and hopefully find time to try out a carbon plate during the spring.
Nice, can you teel a bit more about the process you use?
I did get some nomex and carbon fibre, but only got around to doing some experiments with glass fibre, but found it tricky to ensure that you don't use excessive amounts of epoxy but still get good adhesion, and ended up liking the GPS so much and never got around to try out the carbon. It is a bit tricky since I don't really have good space to work with it, so it has to be right season to be able to do it on the veranda...
I have some of this: https://www.carbix.se/product.html/kolfibervav-flattow-62g/m2-plain
Designed some grills for my plates now to add some protection for the GPS, and will probably stick with that for this version of the speakers, but I'm very curious about lamination and hopefully find time to try out a carbon plate during the spring.
Hello Leo,
First a disclaimer : I'm familar with working with fibres/epoxy/foam (boatbuilding). But I'm no expert.
I followed advise from easycomposites to thicken the glue for adhering the nomex with fumed sillica, and "scrape it" over the laminate to make a kind of microfillets. They show it here from 15:00 https://www.easycomposites.eu/learning/mouldless-carbon-fibre-aero-wing
The proces of making the fibre plates and glueing them to the nomex in one go was my own idea (I'm not so patient), but it's been also described here : http://www.ofremmi.info/HowTo/HonecombPanels/how_to_make_honeycomb_panels.htm
I applied the epoxy to the release film (with a brush), let it soak through the carbon cloth (you can look under the film if there are no dry spots), then made some extra thickened glue, applied that to both pieces of cloth, and sandwiched that between sheets of mdf + quite a lot of weights. I used too much epoxy (also for the wetting out of the cloth), because I was weary of the nomex not adhering. Too much epoxy will make the cloth "float" on the release film, and that's not so beautiful (and heavy of course).
I hope this helps.
One thing : if it's to cold (on your veranda) the epoxy will be thick, and difficult to apply thin enough.
Greetings, Hans
First a disclaimer : I'm familar with working with fibres/epoxy/foam (boatbuilding). But I'm no expert.
I followed advise from easycomposites to thicken the glue for adhering the nomex with fumed sillica, and "scrape it" over the laminate to make a kind of microfillets. They show it here from 15:00 https://www.easycomposites.eu/learning/mouldless-carbon-fibre-aero-wing
The proces of making the fibre plates and glueing them to the nomex in one go was my own idea (I'm not so patient), but it's been also described here : http://www.ofremmi.info/HowTo/HonecombPanels/how_to_make_honeycomb_panels.htm
I applied the epoxy to the release film (with a brush), let it soak through the carbon cloth (you can look under the film if there are no dry spots), then made some extra thickened glue, applied that to both pieces of cloth, and sandwiched that between sheets of mdf + quite a lot of weights. I used too much epoxy (also for the wetting out of the cloth), because I was weary of the nomex not adhering. Too much epoxy will make the cloth "float" on the release film, and that's not so beautiful (and heavy of course).
I hope this helps.
One thing : if it's to cold (on your veranda) the epoxy will be thick, and difficult to apply thin enough.
Greetings, Hans
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Precisely. Although we can purchase the honeycomb and experiment with different material skins.
My approach is not so much the "best material" per se but the compromise with the material tonalities to use less EQ. On other hand i`m trying to solve the crossover point problem, pull the subs to the 150Hz region is not the best option for me.
For example, the combination of polyestyrene with cedar guitar top wood in the front skin, (ex: first on the honeycomb center and the second around that) with the flexibility to use other material on the back skin (ex: accoustic foam diffuser),
Was at an indoor party for the first time in quite some time this weekend, and they where running a decent d&b system, but man did it suck. I really do not understand why DML still is ignored for PA use.
It sounded ok if standing right on axis in front of the speaker, but as soon as you moved to the side a bit there was almost no direct treble, and reflected sound was louder. Really annoying when the treble sounds out of time and messy unless you are in a couple of small spots on the dancefloor.
Sure it could been improved by using multiple tops with spread and acoustic treatment, but for many events you are stuck with the acoustics of the room and will usually not budget for several tops per stack to get better spread when you do not need the extra power to match the subs and venue.
It sounded ok if standing right on axis in front of the speaker, but as soon as you moved to the side a bit there was almost no direct treble, and reflected sound was louder. Really annoying when the treble sounds out of time and messy unless you are in a couple of small spots on the dancefloor.
Sure it could been improved by using multiple tops with spread and acoustic treatment, but for many events you are stuck with the acoustics of the room and will usually not budget for several tops per stack to get better spread when you do not need the extra power to match the subs and venue.
Indeed it has been a problem with the Dayton's I used, and we will see if Xcite really managed to improve reliability. But for now I cannot really recommend DML for PA use, even if I find them superior when they do work.
It is not as easy as modifying existing drivers though. The issue with DML is that an exciter is supposed to cover almost eight octaves. I think that you will not find a regular driver that is good at handling that. You can make a "bass shaker" from a regular driver, but I think there are reliable bass shakers on the market already. And smaller exciters can probably handle only HF reproduction reliably.
At least that is what soundimports suggested to me, full range high power exciters like the EX30HESF2-4 are the ones with reliability issues.
It is not as easy as modifying existing drivers though. The issue with DML is that an exciter is supposed to cover almost eight octaves. I think that you will not find a regular driver that is good at handling that. You can make a "bass shaker" from a regular driver, but I think there are reliable bass shakers on the market already. And smaller exciters can probably handle only HF reproduction reliably.
At least that is what soundimports suggested to me, full range high power exciters like the EX30HESF2-4 are the ones with reliability issues.
Hello Leon, I have followed all your posts on this forum and also the other one, I am also interested in the use for large power PA and I agree with everything you have written, regarding your current conclusions could you roughly summarize the problems and those that according to you are and will perhaps be insurmountable? also you talked about bass shaker you tried it in your panel and don’t you think that the shaking of the panel could be excessive and create problems for the other exciters? My results like yours are good but in essence I see enormous difficulties in keeping a fairly wide response from starting from 100hz and going very high, in fact I would say that perhaps the high part is really complex, yes it is possible to equalize and compensate but I really don’t know yet if it will ever be really good. Lastly I fought a lot with the various noises caused by the slipping of the coils and it was partially resolved but on the dyton I always notice a slightly crackling sound that seems to be its own and not of coupling with the membrane. I also bought the new xcite exciters and from what you say they are hopeful. In essence I find myself at a crossroads to understand if all this can lead to the resolution and create a good product or maybe not. If it is true that Tectonic has abandoned this system it makes me think negatively.
@pixel1
Aside from hoping that Xcite will work out, the solution could be to use separate mid and top plates. It would be a shame to have to introduce a xover though.
I haven't read anything about what has happened with Tectonic, but don't think reliability of their plates was the issue?
So I do think you can make reliable plates, but unfortunately the exciters used on the Tectonic plates is not available. But it does indicate that perhaps the EX30HESF2-4 is the problem and that you can make reliable exciters. According to soundimports for example the Dayton DAEX32EP-4 should also be more reliable, but will lack HF, so might need something to complement above 10k.
With the EX30HESF2-4 I have not found HF reproduction to be an issue at all. For PA use you do not want a flat response, that would make the treble very tiring at war levels, and in fact I have even reduced HF a bit with EQ.
I'm certainly not giving up and definitely think you can make nice reliable PA plates, but it is clear that the solution I been using have issues, and if you just want to put together a PA right now it will be experimental and risky.
My immediate plan is run the Xcites for extended periods with a low frequency signal to condition the suspension and hope they will hold up. Also Xcite has another model under development, which should be even more reliable according to soundimports.
Aside from hoping that Xcite will work out, the solution could be to use separate mid and top plates. It would be a shame to have to introduce a xover though.
I haven't read anything about what has happened with Tectonic, but don't think reliability of their plates was the issue?
So I do think you can make reliable plates, but unfortunately the exciters used on the Tectonic plates is not available. But it does indicate that perhaps the EX30HESF2-4 is the problem and that you can make reliable exciters. According to soundimports for example the Dayton DAEX32EP-4 should also be more reliable, but will lack HF, so might need something to complement above 10k.
With the EX30HESF2-4 I have not found HF reproduction to be an issue at all. For PA use you do not want a flat response, that would make the treble very tiring at war levels, and in fact I have even reduced HF a bit with EQ.
I'm certainly not giving up and definitely think you can make nice reliable PA plates, but it is clear that the solution I been using have issues, and if you just want to put together a PA right now it will be experimental and risky.
My immediate plan is run the Xcites for extended periods with a low frequency signal to condition the suspension and hope they will hold up. Also Xcite has another model under development, which should be even more reliable according to soundimports.
Good comments.
But I believe Tectonic Audio did not play to the full advantages of DML technology. It seems like too many engineers were involved too closely with too many accountants. Personally, even if I had the money and the market, I would probably not have bought those panels either. There are other advantages and solutions to the high power DML product that need to be investigated before throwing in the towel completely.
But I believe Tectonic Audio did not play to the full advantages of DML technology. It seems like too many engineers were involved too closely with too many accountants. Personally, even if I had the money and the market, I would probably not have bought those panels either. There are other advantages and solutions to the high power DML product that need to be investigated before throwing in the towel completely.
I think it is hopeless to try to enter DML market top down like Tectonic was doing, so trying to sell high end plates to rental and production companies for example.
If you run a company setting up audio for others, you will not try something new and different even if you really like the product yourself. Then you have to try to sell your customers on the new technology, which is just extra work.
The demand needs to be built from the bottom up, so that organizers start asking for DML systems themselves, and that will only happen if there are budget alternatives that DJ's, bands and small organizers can afford.
If you run a company setting up audio for others, you will not try something new and different even if you really like the product yourself. Then you have to try to sell your customers on the new technology, which is just extra work.
The demand needs to be built from the bottom up, so that organizers start asking for DML systems themselves, and that will only happen if there are budget alternatives that DJ's, bands and small organizers can afford.
What about instead of trying to modify the driver, using a smaller dml panel in place of the compression driver in a standard powered 12-15" PA speaker for the tops, this way it would be playing from 800-1000hz up so not a lot of vibration but would still get the clarity and space of the panel sound , also with HD EPS the sensitivity would be similar. Would be easy enough to test using the existing crossover in a powered speaker. Should be more reliable and have good kick too having midbass handled by a big driver.
Compression drivers are usually massively efficient, easily over 98db/w@1m due to horn loading. DML drivers will really battle to get close to that.
And a 15" PA speaker will be similarly efficient.
I think the Tectonic panels did mention a sensitivity of 101db/w somewhere, but I somehow doubt that figure. They might have measured that at 50cm or something.
@JoskaNZ
That would negate several advantages of DML. I think lower mid sounds great with DML, and don't want a crossover is the most sensitive region. And I don't want big clumsy boxes.
If I would split I would just have separate DML plates with xover around 7-10k, since that is where the sturdier exciters starts tapering off and the xover will be less noticeable.
Did have the Xcites running all night with a loud 23Hz tone, dialed back to just below where they start distorting, which was a lot higher than with the Daytons. They did not heat up at all though, but should have given the suspension a proper workout at least, and that has not caused any issues. I do think the Daytons would have failed the same test, so I'm getting cautiously optimistic that the Xcites will hold up.
That would negate several advantages of DML. I think lower mid sounds great with DML, and don't want a crossover is the most sensitive region. And I don't want big clumsy boxes.
If I would split I would just have separate DML plates with xover around 7-10k, since that is where the sturdier exciters starts tapering off and the xover will be less noticeable.
Did have the Xcites running all night with a loud 23Hz tone, dialed back to just below where they start distorting, which was a lot higher than with the Daytons. They did not heat up at all though, but should have given the suspension a proper workout at least, and that has not caused any issues. I do think the Daytons would have failed the same test, so I'm getting cautiously optimistic that the Xcites will hold up.