Got that out of my system...
Gav, trying to find those pic's of my Mitsuboshi "Zero". They're on the same roll as the pics of my dead cat on the couch. Just after it gave it's death 'meow'. It was a bad weekend for me...🙁 ...15 years ago...
Morbid, but sentimental Sush' is
Gav, trying to find those pic's of my Mitsuboshi "Zero". They're on the same roll as the pics of my dead cat on the couch. Just after it gave it's death 'meow'. It was a bad weekend for me...🙁 ...15 years ago...
Morbid, but sentimental Sush' is
fujinon lens
I finally received my fujinon lens and a big 5 7/8" plano convex lens from surplus shed yesterday! Never again will I skimp on shipping and not go air mail - 10 weeks it took. But now I can finally move forward with my design for rear projection using 5" ps1 lcd. I haven't posted for ages since I didn't think I had anything new to report since really progressing the front projection using a ohp fresnel design as far as I could. I have still been reading the threads as much as possible though!
I was planning on using a Delta 77 lens, however discovered that it was designed for a curved CRT, and so is no good for our purposes. The older fujinon seems to be intended for flat CRT's, so should be perfect. I had a quick test of the new lens last night, and the quality seems excellent. I do have to figure out where to put additional lens elements to correct a sort of pincushion effect I have though.
With just the fujinon lens you don't see all the picture, just a circular patch. With a fresnel just before the LCD you do see all the image, however it is pincushion distorted and the edges are not all totally in focus. Same sort of effect with the big PCX just before the LCD. I couldn't try the fresnel just after the LCD because of the physical size and my setup, but I did try the PCX there between the LCD and the fujinon, and you get a similar sort of thing again.
Does anyone have any suggestions for lens placement for this kind of setup?
I finally received my fujinon lens and a big 5 7/8" plano convex lens from surplus shed yesterday! Never again will I skimp on shipping and not go air mail - 10 weeks it took. But now I can finally move forward with my design for rear projection using 5" ps1 lcd. I haven't posted for ages since I didn't think I had anything new to report since really progressing the front projection using a ohp fresnel design as far as I could. I have still been reading the threads as much as possible though!
I was planning on using a Delta 77 lens, however discovered that it was designed for a curved CRT, and so is no good for our purposes. The older fujinon seems to be intended for flat CRT's, so should be perfect. I had a quick test of the new lens last night, and the quality seems excellent. I do have to figure out where to put additional lens elements to correct a sort of pincushion effect I have though.
With just the fujinon lens you don't see all the picture, just a circular patch. With a fresnel just before the LCD you do see all the image, however it is pincushion distorted and the edges are not all totally in focus. Same sort of effect with the big PCX just before the LCD. I couldn't try the fresnel just after the LCD because of the physical size and my setup, but I did try the PCX there between the LCD and the fujinon, and you get a similar sort of thing again.
Does anyone have any suggestions for lens placement for this kind of setup?
Attachments
Hey,
Lemme get this straight. Are you guys saying that anything less than 6.4" won`t give a good picture?
One other thing, why won`t a very bright (10,000 lumens) light behind a 5" LCD screen being projected 4' x 3' onto a real projection screen by a Delta IV lens work?
Mitch
Lemme get this straight. Are you guys saying that anything less than 6.4" won`t give a good picture?
One other thing, why won`t a very bright (10,000 lumens) light behind a 5" LCD screen being projected 4' x 3' onto a real projection screen by a Delta IV lens work?
Mitch
Mitch
A delta IV lens is designed for a curved crt. If you put it in front of a flat lcd either the middle or the sides of the image will be out of focus. But you won't be able to focus the whole thing all at once.
Also, If the entire lcd dosn't fit inside the apeture of the delta then you are not going to get an entire image. The edges will be cut off.
A delta IV lens is designed for a curved crt. If you put it in front of a flat lcd either the middle or the sides of the image will be out of focus. But you won't be able to focus the whole thing all at once.
Also, If the entire lcd dosn't fit inside the apeture of the delta then you are not going to get an entire image. The edges will be cut off.
OK, would a very bright (10,000 lumens) light behind a 14" LCD screen being projected 4' x 3' onto a real rear projection screen by a fresnal lens give me a pretty good picture? Or are those fresnal lenses crap?
I want to get the lens as close as I can to the screen and still maintain a 4`x 3` image.
Thanks for your help, Tech Head
Mitch
I want to get the lens as close as I can to the screen and still maintain a 4`x 3` image.
Thanks for your help, Tech Head
Mitch
Sony has A LOT of small lcd's (< 2")
Lots of info and datasheets can be found here:
http://www.sony.co.jp/en/Products/SC-HP/Product_List_E/Category_title_E/LCD_E.html
Im getting a older sony viewfinder lcd in a week or two, it's specs are almost identical to LCX032ANB though, seems pretty nice, 200:1 contrast ratio, 1.1cm diagonal 🙂
Hard to use in an unmodified slide projector though, will give a pretty small image 🙂
Would be cool if anyone fond a reseller of the sony lcd's.
One downside though, it will requre pretty advanced drive electronics if it is to be run from pal/ntsc. If im not completley off i think it can be run from a vga signal without too much hassle.
Lots of info and datasheets can be found here:
http://www.sony.co.jp/en/Products/SC-HP/Product_List_E/Category_title_E/LCD_E.html
Im getting a older sony viewfinder lcd in a week or two, it's specs are almost identical to LCX032ANB though, seems pretty nice, 200:1 contrast ratio, 1.1cm diagonal 🙂
Hard to use in an unmodified slide projector though, will give a pretty small image 🙂
Would be cool if anyone fond a reseller of the sony lcd's.
One downside though, it will requre pretty advanced drive electronics if it is to be run from pal/ntsc. If im not completley off i think it can be run from a vga signal without too much hassle.
DaViruz,
these are indeed nice small LCDs but i guess, they won't sell to customers. Maybe you can get an evauation kit for $$$$.
xblocker
these are indeed nice small LCDs but i guess, they won't sell to customers. Maybe you can get an evauation kit for $$$$.
xblocker
progress
OK, time for an update on my progress with the new surplus shed Fujinon lens. I have managed to get a fairly consistent square image. Turned out I was using the fujinon the wrong way around... 😱 So now I have:
Light source: 10k lumen 250W EHJ bulb with slide proj reflector/PCX lens and IR filter
Before LCD (as close as I can get it): OHP fresnel and a 5 7/8" PCX from surplus shed clamped to it in the centre.
LCD: PS1 screen 5" with pal composite to RGB converter circuit
After LCD: Fujinon lens mounted very close to LCD (approx 10mm)
Notes so far:
I was able to get the image about 1.4m X 1m which is the size of my rear proj screen with a distance of 2m between the LCD and the screen image. It seems the closer to the LCD I mount the fresnel/big PCX combination the more of the LCD screen I am able to project. Currently the curved side of the PCX is nearly touching the LCD and I get nearly all the LCD visible, just the corners seem cut off. The fresnel/pcx combo converges the light quite strongly, I think if the fujinon was not there it reachs sort of a minimum spot size of about 4cm approx 15cm from the fresnel/PCX. Fresnel on its own in not enough to make my light source converge.
I was also not able to mount the fujinon close enough to the LCD to get the image in total focus, my LCD is mounted on 12mm mdf.
I dunno if anyone is interested in this sort of setup or not, but I thought the experience could be helpful if someone is looking to use similar parts.
To summarise what I have done so far, I reckon the fujinon lens is a goer for the 5" lcd, however the 250W bulb setup is not bright enough, will look for either a better reflector/lens combination or an alternative. More work is required to ensure the whole LCD screen is visible.
I also think ultimately I will be disappointed with the resolution of the LCD, but ah well, I am committed to finishing this design before I think too much about better res...
OK, time for an update on my progress with the new surplus shed Fujinon lens. I have managed to get a fairly consistent square image. Turned out I was using the fujinon the wrong way around... 😱 So now I have:
Light source: 10k lumen 250W EHJ bulb with slide proj reflector/PCX lens and IR filter
Before LCD (as close as I can get it): OHP fresnel and a 5 7/8" PCX from surplus shed clamped to it in the centre.
LCD: PS1 screen 5" with pal composite to RGB converter circuit
After LCD: Fujinon lens mounted very close to LCD (approx 10mm)
Notes so far:
I was able to get the image about 1.4m X 1m which is the size of my rear proj screen with a distance of 2m between the LCD and the screen image. It seems the closer to the LCD I mount the fresnel/big PCX combination the more of the LCD screen I am able to project. Currently the curved side of the PCX is nearly touching the LCD and I get nearly all the LCD visible, just the corners seem cut off. The fresnel/pcx combo converges the light quite strongly, I think if the fujinon was not there it reachs sort of a minimum spot size of about 4cm approx 15cm from the fresnel/PCX. Fresnel on its own in not enough to make my light source converge.
I was also not able to mount the fujinon close enough to the LCD to get the image in total focus, my LCD is mounted on 12mm mdf.
I dunno if anyone is interested in this sort of setup or not, but I thought the experience could be helpful if someone is looking to use similar parts.
To summarise what I have done so far, I reckon the fujinon lens is a goer for the 5" lcd, however the 250W bulb setup is not bright enough, will look for either a better reflector/lens combination or an alternative. More work is required to ensure the whole LCD screen is visible.
I also think ultimately I will be disappointed with the resolution of the LCD, but ah well, I am committed to finishing this design before I think too much about better res...
I escaped the Betty Ford Center!!! I only have a few minutes!
Glad to hear the Fujinon was somewhat good...
...Heard it was a "flat-input" based lens (the other Delta type lens available generically, Delta IV, is curved for a round CRT input...in the old days the screen was also curved...hmmm! (made to match??!).
Good to hear it was successful in the area you did get projected. Heard something to the negative in the main thread regarding the Fujinon lens...account was flatly described, though.
Seems you're experimenting with the position of the lens' more (the optical train), probably your lcd is too big to be matched exactly to the Fujinon. This was my concern on using these cheap (warp on edges, included in size!) 5" CRT lenses. There may be a necessary reduction of the LCD required (physically 4" max and/or some type of optical pre-reduction required...?!), in regards to the lens size match-up. Mostly due to the fact that the Delta type lens' will warp the image when it goes beyond ~2/3 rd's of the lens' centrical circumference. They are cheap lenses after-all! And, designed to fit a different job.
Muzzman, if you can post some pics to show projections you see when changing your various lens' and their position's that would be helpful for all.
Also, it would be nice if we could all meet and have a seminar on optics (What does PCX look like projected?!). I think most of us are due...myself included. How about it Professor Gunawan/Rich ?!
...Still waiting on my epoxy. LOCTITE sure isn't a quick mailer! Hope to be posting pics before heading out!...Champs Elysee for this Yank, next week!...Amsterdam, Prague and Bangkok, watch out! I just escaped 'Betty Ford'! Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk...ohhhh, they're coming to take me away!
Cob-koon-krup,
Lok-on, sawat de ka
Sush'
Read the prior posts, nothing much to add or criticize. Who's perfect!?
Glad to hear the Fujinon was somewhat good...
...Heard it was a "flat-input" based lens (the other Delta type lens available generically, Delta IV, is curved for a round CRT input...in the old days the screen was also curved...hmmm! (made to match??!).
Good to hear it was successful in the area you did get projected. Heard something to the negative in the main thread regarding the Fujinon lens...account was flatly described, though.
Seems you're experimenting with the position of the lens' more (the optical train), probably your lcd is too big to be matched exactly to the Fujinon. This was my concern on using these cheap (warp on edges, included in size!) 5" CRT lenses. There may be a necessary reduction of the LCD required (physically 4" max and/or some type of optical pre-reduction required...?!), in regards to the lens size match-up. Mostly due to the fact that the Delta type lens' will warp the image when it goes beyond ~2/3 rd's of the lens' centrical circumference. They are cheap lenses after-all! And, designed to fit a different job.
Muzzman, if you can post some pics to show projections you see when changing your various lens' and their position's that would be helpful for all.
Also, it would be nice if we could all meet and have a seminar on optics (What does PCX look like projected?!). I think most of us are due...myself included. How about it Professor Gunawan/Rich ?!
...Still waiting on my epoxy. LOCTITE sure isn't a quick mailer! Hope to be posting pics before heading out!...Champs Elysee for this Yank, next week!...Amsterdam, Prague and Bangkok, watch out! I just escaped 'Betty Ford'! Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk...ohhhh, they're coming to take me away!
Cob-koon-krup,
Lok-on, sawat de ka
Sush'
Read the prior posts, nothing much to add or criticize. Who's perfect!?
Sony PSone screen
anybody have some info on Sony Playstation screen, like what is its resolution, is circuity removable etc. ?
anybody have some info on Sony Playstation screen, like what is its resolution, is circuity removable etc. ?
I`m not sure about the PS2 LCD, but the Gamecube`s resolution is 240 x 160. I don`t know if that helps much...
Re: I escaped the Betty Ford Center!!! I only have a few minutes!
All that I read about the fujinon, mainly really early stuff in the greenspun forum seemed to point towards it being designed for flat crt's. From general reading I thought that 5" raster diagonal was the smallest CRT size used, but I may be wrong about that. But anyway I have a Delta 67 and a Delta77 lens that I bought about a year and a half ago when I started mucking about with this project, and both of those are definitely designed for curved CRT's. I confirmed this with Corning precision lens too, they were quite helpful. The fujinon was a bit of a gamble, but it does seem to be for flat crt's.
I was gonna take some photos, but they would have been very indistinct, because I can't yet focus anything due to the mechanical layout of my stuff, can't get the fujinon close enough to the lcd. As soon as I can I will post a few pictures.
Someone asked about playstation lcd's? I assume they mean ps1 lcd's. Mine is a Madcatz one, and it was quite easy to disassemble, only one side of the tft lcd has fragile bonded connections to a driver PCB that can be folded back out of the way. Diffusion/polarizer sheets can be removed easily etc. I don't know exactly what res it is, I estimate it is about 450x230 or so (real res ie RGB triplets). The 230 lines are kind of doubled using fancy interlacing techniques. (they display one field on the 230 lines, then the next interlaced field is displayed on the same 230 lines, the two merge to form an apparently higher res image). I actually think the res is a bit disappointing. Fine for foreground tv images, but when you try to make out people's faces in distant shots, the low res really lets you down. btw, the box it came in claimed 'high resolution', and I suppose relative to other similar screens yes it is.
Be warned though, the madcatz one turned out to be RGB ONLY, ie. no composite video in. I had to build a PAL composite to RGB splitter which is not trivial. The playstation outputs RGB and composite video on the same connector, so it is hard to look at a ps1 screen and know which it is using. I know some ps1 screens had composite in, some even already had AV jack inputs so you could use them as a little telly. These would be safest to get. The other mongrel thing about the madcatz one was all the chip numbers on the madcatz pcbs (two of 'em) were ground off. This meant I couldn't determine the ribbon cable pin out to the actual hitachi lcd driver board. I had to keep the two madcatz boards and use the playstation pin outs that I already knew. I suspect I could get better image quality if I could remove the crappy brightness adjustment that the madcatz board puts in. On the other hand I know that some of these LCD drivers require complicated flipping of signals for every alternate video field and other abnormalities, so perhaps it is safer to keep the madcatz boards in place.
SushiMasterX said:
All that I read about the fujinon, mainly really early stuff in the greenspun forum seemed to point towards it being designed for flat crt's. From general reading I thought that 5" raster diagonal was the smallest CRT size used, but I may be wrong about that. But anyway I have a Delta 67 and a Delta77 lens that I bought about a year and a half ago when I started mucking about with this project, and both of those are definitely designed for curved CRT's. I confirmed this with Corning precision lens too, they were quite helpful. The fujinon was a bit of a gamble, but it does seem to be for flat crt's.
I was gonna take some photos, but they would have been very indistinct, because I can't yet focus anything due to the mechanical layout of my stuff, can't get the fujinon close enough to the lcd. As soon as I can I will post a few pictures.
Someone asked about playstation lcd's? I assume they mean ps1 lcd's. Mine is a Madcatz one, and it was quite easy to disassemble, only one side of the tft lcd has fragile bonded connections to a driver PCB that can be folded back out of the way. Diffusion/polarizer sheets can be removed easily etc. I don't know exactly what res it is, I estimate it is about 450x230 or so (real res ie RGB triplets). The 230 lines are kind of doubled using fancy interlacing techniques. (they display one field on the 230 lines, then the next interlaced field is displayed on the same 230 lines, the two merge to form an apparently higher res image). I actually think the res is a bit disappointing. Fine for foreground tv images, but when you try to make out people's faces in distant shots, the low res really lets you down. btw, the box it came in claimed 'high resolution', and I suppose relative to other similar screens yes it is.
Be warned though, the madcatz one turned out to be RGB ONLY, ie. no composite video in. I had to build a PAL composite to RGB splitter which is not trivial. The playstation outputs RGB and composite video on the same connector, so it is hard to look at a ps1 screen and know which it is using. I know some ps1 screens had composite in, some even already had AV jack inputs so you could use them as a little telly. These would be safest to get. The other mongrel thing about the madcatz one was all the chip numbers on the madcatz pcbs (two of 'em) were ground off. This meant I couldn't determine the ribbon cable pin out to the actual hitachi lcd driver board. I had to keep the two madcatz boards and use the playstation pin outs that I already knew. I suspect I could get better image quality if I could remove the crappy brightness adjustment that the madcatz board puts in. On the other hand I know that some of these LCD drivers require complicated flipping of signals for every alternate video field and other abnormalities, so perhaps it is safer to keep the madcatz boards in place.
Do the small lcd's still have a short life? I know SushiMasterX, mentioned on page 1 that alot of his died pretty quickly. Is this still the case, and do the larger ones have a longer life span? I assume this is due to the extra heat for the backlight no? Thanks.😀
No time to fix the panels...
Received the Loctite paste, tried a few test spots to see if I could accurately paste. Mucho difficultO! I used a hypodermic needle and it was too large. Picked up a smaller one, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I'll take it with me and see if I can't repair it when I have some free time and a clean space to work. Sorry folks, no time now.
Tinker,
The lcd's I had that would burn out were the Radio Shack tv's. They didn't have a high enough work range to allow the full 300 watt setting from the projector.
My 2 Primeview lcd's have an operating range up to +65 Celcius. They never burned out, but the ribbon cable's were brittle/fragile and snapped after fooling around with them constantly, in my makeshift setup.
If you can dim the SP bulb (hi to low), go for the low on the mini-tv's. They probably weren't designed to go above 40 or 50 Celsius. The "low" setting allows you to project, without worry. I got greedy for the darker contrast picture, turned up the juice and voila'! Tender-juicy, lcd! When it's darker the lcd absorbs more heat.
Some of the Primeview's pixels would start going dark after an hour or so, at high projection...I used an ELH 300 Watt bulb. I would shut it down and let it cool, then it would work fine again. They're more resilient than the mini-tv's. More air cooling or IR glass will probably help. Anything, to pull the heat out of it.
Thanks to everyone for your feedback and putting up with my screwy inebriated anecdotes. Best to all! Checking back in the following months. Please post as you wish, I would...ha-ha-ha!
Sush', out...
Received the Loctite paste, tried a few test spots to see if I could accurately paste. Mucho difficultO! I used a hypodermic needle and it was too large. Picked up a smaller one, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I'll take it with me and see if I can't repair it when I have some free time and a clean space to work. Sorry folks, no time now.
Tinker,
The lcd's I had that would burn out were the Radio Shack tv's. They didn't have a high enough work range to allow the full 300 watt setting from the projector.
My 2 Primeview lcd's have an operating range up to +65 Celcius. They never burned out, but the ribbon cable's were brittle/fragile and snapped after fooling around with them constantly, in my makeshift setup.
If you can dim the SP bulb (hi to low), go for the low on the mini-tv's. They probably weren't designed to go above 40 or 50 Celsius. The "low" setting allows you to project, without worry. I got greedy for the darker contrast picture, turned up the juice and voila'! Tender-juicy, lcd! When it's darker the lcd absorbs more heat.
Some of the Primeview's pixels would start going dark after an hour or so, at high projection...I used an ELH 300 Watt bulb. I would shut it down and let it cool, then it would work fine again. They're more resilient than the mini-tv's. More air cooling or IR glass will probably help. Anything, to pull the heat out of it.
Thanks to everyone for your feedback and putting up with my screwy inebriated anecdotes. Best to all! Checking back in the following months. Please post as you wish, I would...ha-ha-ha!
Sush', out...
Been following this thread and the others for a bit now.
I found this LCD panel through Ebay. Doesn't say an actual resolution, but it does mention "440 lines of TV resolution" I'm wondering if that's the vertical resolution, because if it is, it would be much better than the 240 available from Parts-Express.
Another spec on the page mentions 20,000 "dots" (pixels, I would assume), but I'm thinking this was a typo. 440 vertical resolution would leave a horizontal resolution of about 45.
Further assuming that the 440 is the vertical resolution, for a 4:3 image, would be approximately 586 horizontal, which would make a pixel count of about 257,000, or about 771,000, if you count the individual elements. Not bad compared with the 240v, 320h, 76800px, 230,400 total of the Parts-Express panels.
I found this LCD panel through Ebay. Doesn't say an actual resolution, but it does mention "440 lines of TV resolution" I'm wondering if that's the vertical resolution, because if it is, it would be much better than the 240 available from Parts-Express.
Another spec on the page mentions 20,000 "dots" (pixels, I would assume), but I'm thinking this was a typo. 440 vertical resolution would leave a horizontal resolution of about 45.
Further assuming that the 440 is the vertical resolution, for a 4:3 image, would be approximately 586 horizontal, which would make a pixel count of about 257,000, or about 771,000, if you count the individual elements. Not bad compared with the 240v, 320h, 76800px, 230,400 total of the Parts-Express panels.
more progress
Another progress update.
This time I have the whole image in focus and illuminated. Modified the mount of the LCD so that I could get the fujinon lens close enough to focus, and it definitely works extremely well. I get a totally in focus 1.2m diagonal image with 2m between the image and the LCD screen. I stuffed around with optics between the light and the LCD to get the light converging enough for the fujinon to 'see' the whole image. I had to drop the 5-7/8" PCX lens from surplus shed, it just wasn't large enough to do the corners of the screen. Instead I have two OHP fresnel lenses sandwidged together. (actually I think each OHP lens is actually two stuck together already, so four in total!).
I took some dig photos, but again, they really didn't come out very well. Seems really difficult to accurately capture the brightness level of the screen. Conclusions: optics are pretty much sorted out, but 250W quartz iodide globe with slide proj reflector and PCX lens is not bright enough. I looked at metal halide, but seems too expensive. I think my best bet is to make/use a reflector to more efficiently use the light from the 250W globe. I think an awful lot is wasted right now. Also if I had more brightness in the light source, I could turn down the brightness control on the analog video processing, which I think is washing out the image a bit, wasting some of the available contrast ratio.
Another progress update.
This time I have the whole image in focus and illuminated. Modified the mount of the LCD so that I could get the fujinon lens close enough to focus, and it definitely works extremely well. I get a totally in focus 1.2m diagonal image with 2m between the image and the LCD screen. I stuffed around with optics between the light and the LCD to get the light converging enough for the fujinon to 'see' the whole image. I had to drop the 5-7/8" PCX lens from surplus shed, it just wasn't large enough to do the corners of the screen. Instead I have two OHP fresnel lenses sandwidged together. (actually I think each OHP lens is actually two stuck together already, so four in total!).
I took some dig photos, but again, they really didn't come out very well. Seems really difficult to accurately capture the brightness level of the screen. Conclusions: optics are pretty much sorted out, but 250W quartz iodide globe with slide proj reflector and PCX lens is not bright enough. I looked at metal halide, but seems too expensive. I think my best bet is to make/use a reflector to more efficiently use the light from the 250W globe. I think an awful lot is wasted right now. Also if I had more brightness in the light source, I could turn down the brightness control on the analog video processing, which I think is washing out the image a bit, wasting some of the available contrast ratio.
sorry people I cannot seem to attach any image, I have tried reducing dpi and image dimensions, file size to 25kb, jpg and gif, it just isn't working...
DaViruz said:
i'm a newbie and don't really know what i'm talking about, but if i could get my hands on one of those lcd's and the coppesponding driver, where would you get the board to wire the driver to? how would you get it so you could get either a s-video or composite video input?😕
frank
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