You appear to be claiming that driver requirements for box volume, tuning and acoustic alignment are irrelevant, and units that need several hundred litres can be rammed into a shoe-box and work perfectly?
No. It certainly doesn't.
This is based on extensive experience and knowledge of all wideband drive units? Including all those you have never seen or heard?
How, exactly, have you 'looked over' all the models from these and other companies, and what acoustic and mechanical properties did you include in your analysis?
You're not kidding. It's very hard to judge such things based on youtube videos and more or less zero understanding about what you're doing.
There is no such thing as a flawless moving coil drive unit in this physical reality, nor is it possible to be. For a drive unit to be 'flawless' it would require a perfectly flat response from 0Hz to infinitely high frequencies on and off axis, zero harmonic distortion, zero intermodulation distortion, zero FMD, a perfectly flat impedance a sensitivity of at least 120dB to a given signal input, infinitely high power-handling and infinite dynamic range.
And even if it was possible (it isn't), it ignores the frequency dependent interaction and destructive interference between two non-coincidentally positioned drive units.
Unless they adhere to the above criteria, they have flaws.
Not to my ears (frankly, I think it sounds terrible, even accounting for the room, the lousy recording quality etc.), but if you like it, that's what matters.
Alas, yours aren't, and even if such a device was physically possible in this reality, as noted, that wouldn't do anything to help with the frequency-dependent destructive interference between widely spaced drive units playing the same frequencies.
Remind us which Fostex and Tang Band drive units you have experience with, solo and in multi-driver configurations?
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Hey great post, Well you certainly have me in a corner , rock anda hard place.
*flawless** = no major resonance spikes in upper bass.low mids, + No barks, no shouts, no stress mids , no screeching highs, no fake highs,, Is what i am saying by NOT flawed.
Perfect? Never care for perfection as you know classical recordings are average at best.
Dont need a great speaker,,just oen that has none of the flaws mentioned above, which all xover type designs suffer from.
ALL xover speakers flawed
My DavidLouis Do, NOt flawed.
This is how I hear it
No only the Tang Band 2145, no others. Have not heard any Foxtex.
Only YT videos.
I know fora fact i am going to have issues with Fostex. But hey, as you say each his own. Mark Audio, not for me.
I really think you guys shoudl put up some vash, but the VX8, ship it around for testing and see if its worth $550.
This will put the speaker to the test.
I am not interested in measurements, cabinet design.
The DL will sound great ina card board box.
Does the DL have limitations? Of course. High SPL, might have issues, Big Rock music, etc might break down. I don't know.
I listen 60 SPL near field, CM and very very happy how this Duo sounds... About to go cut the hole in the DLVX8 50 liter cabinet and plug in the DLVX6.
DONE!!!
Perfect?
No
But certianly far superior sound to any/all xover types LOUD speakers, thats for dang sure
*flawless** = no major resonance spikes in upper bass.low mids, + No barks, no shouts, no stress mids , no screeching highs, no fake highs,, Is what i am saying by NOT flawed.
Perfect? Never care for perfection as you know classical recordings are average at best.
Dont need a great speaker,,just oen that has none of the flaws mentioned above, which all xover type designs suffer from.
ALL xover speakers flawed
My DavidLouis Do, NOt flawed.
This is how I hear it
No only the Tang Band 2145, no others. Have not heard any Foxtex.
Only YT videos.
I know fora fact i am going to have issues with Fostex. But hey, as you say each his own. Mark Audio, not for me.
I really think you guys shoudl put up some vash, but the VX8, ship it around for testing and see if its worth $550.
This will put the speaker to the test.
I am not interested in measurements, cabinet design.
The DL will sound great ina card board box.
Does the DL have limitations? Of course. High SPL, might have issues, Big Rock music, etc might break down. I don't know.
I listen 60 SPL near field, CM and very very happy how this Duo sounds... About to go cut the hole in the DLVX8 50 liter cabinet and plug in the DLVX6.
DONE!!!
Perfect?
No
But certianly far superior sound to any/all xover types LOUD speakers, thats for dang sure
OK, so we have some caveats now. Alas, I can hear plenty of issues in your video, so from my perspective, it's still flawed.
I don't know that at all. There are many stellar classical recordings.
Personally, I find I need a loudspeaker with a linear / slightly declining frequency response from at least 30Hz, in-line with the huge mass of acoustic research performed over the past 90 years (more, if you consider that significant acoustic research was going on in the Victorian era), stable off-axis to 30degrees or more, and preferably capable of at least 120dB peaks at the listening position to be able to achieve a reasonably 'realistic' dynamic range. More LF extension & headroom is preferable though, but as minimums go, that would be mine. Alas, I don't currently have the space, but that's my basic criteria. Assuming a more limited set of conditions, taking an 80dB average SPL at the listening position, then I'd want at least 20dB dynamic headroom and a 42Hz LF extension to cover open E double bass. Too limited really for accurate orchestral reproduction, but we accept that isn't always possible for various reasons, and aim for the smallest number of compromises.
Drivel.
All loudspeakers are flawed. And your wideband drive units have crossovers -they just happen to be mechanical, not electrical. You have been told this repeatedly.
Which is great for you, since you are the one listening to them, and that's what counts. As a blanket proposition, it falls over though, because I don't hear it that way, and I doubt many others do.
OK, so you were making those statements with no actual knowledge or experience.
Good. Because all speakers have issues. It just comes down to what you can live with.
No thanks, that's more than I earn in a month, and I have no interest in buying another 8in whizzer cone wideband drive unit from a company with several different names, that has no distributorship or established market presence & simply sells on an on-line marketplace. Especially since on current evidence, a number of products sold under their name have somewhat questionable performance, especially relative to the claims.
I think most of us have noticed that.
Perhaps to you, but that is an opinion that isn't shared by everyone, and since you haven't heard 'all xover types', your basis for generalising is a mite limited. Especially since, as noted, those drive units have crossovers.
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So your fullrange, crossoverless loudspeakers ended up being a three-way system with a combination of electrical AND mechanical crossovers in the end?
Other than that, truth to be told and no offence but I can't follow your writing at all, have no clue what it is you are trying to say in your posts. Maybe a language barrier but it's very hard to read and understand. Obviously you have find your audio nirvana and are very happy with it, that's all what counts in the end.
Other than that, truth to be told and no offence but I can't follow your writing at all, have no clue what it is you are trying to say in your posts. Maybe a language barrier but it's very hard to read and understand. Obviously you have find your audio nirvana and are very happy with it, that's all what counts in the end.
yes yes you got it.
I speak in some weird ideas, i realize, Non tech style.
But hope you at least listen through the video.
I am in a new design and very close toa finsihed system,. Looking at addinga 2nd tweeter,, BUt dont wish to ohm over load my friends UX250 SET amp.
My Defy will have new tubes late Janurary.
Anyway, I like how this dual FR came out,. I try to explain in the video.
Again some here may not agree with this concept, and I can understand its out the ordinary.
Both drivers have to match up. If either has weaknesses, it will not work Both drivers MUST BE near perfect, lets say ~~defect free~~.
Davidlouis VX8 + DavidLouis VX6 Full Range + Seas W18 + Philips AD163 tweeter - YouTube
Sjef; meanwhile, we’ll just await his next several contradictory pronouncements.
WEll I'm learning.
Im staying on course for a duo FR system, So far I have no issues with what i am hearing.
I have futher testing,,and especially when my own amp is up N running we can see how the duo FR perform witha big PP amp KT88.
Problem there is, the vol gian, cant really use much on the vol pot especially ina 10x15 room, near field,, Luckily i only like low SPL, say 60 db.
So dual FR will work in my setting.
I am hearing muisc in greater details with dual FR.
I could not go back to a single FR. Its a done deal.
WEll I'm learning.
Im staying on course for a duo FR system, So far I have no issues with what i am hearing.
I have futher testing,,and especially when my own amp is up N running we can see how the duo FR perform witha big PP amp KT88.
Problem there is, the vol gian, cant really use much on the vol pot especially ina 10x15 room, near field,, Luckily i only like low SPL, say 60 db.
So dual FR will work in my setting.
I am hearing muisc in greater details with dual FR.
I could not go back to a single FR. Its a done deal.
Hmm, the lower the SPL and or the closer one is, the more obvious driver comb filtering due to acoustically large distances [in Hz] is, so having done many Mardi Gras on the way to Daytona Bike Week am well aware of how damaging the live bands, partying in general can be, plus in my case, lots of big loud exhaust bikes with minimal hearing protection on a ~1600 mi. round trip; ergo have to wonder what shape your hearing is in because all your videos are by far the worst of any of the live ones with speakers, musical events I'm familiar with.
Factor in that at least some of us are experienced enough to glean a 'FR' driver's basic performance from just a decent frequency and impedance plot that is too often ~ the opposite of what you claim to hear, so as much as I want to, am having a hard time taking you seriously.
WRT dual 'FR' drivers, am among others here very much dual [or more] aficionados, but with rare exception [line arrays], roll one off somewhere around the baffle step or at worst, ~ 1 WL away [in Hz] because otherwise it decreases clarity, detail and in some cases we even add super tweeters to further increase clarity, detail, so again 'preaching to the choir' in general, but too far out of sync with literally at least a century's worth of knowledge on the subject, so at this point please give it a rest.
Factor in that at least some of us are experienced enough to glean a 'FR' driver's basic performance from just a decent frequency and impedance plot that is too often ~ the opposite of what you claim to hear, so as much as I want to, am having a hard time taking you seriously.
WRT dual 'FR' drivers, am among others here very much dual [or more] aficionados, but with rare exception [line arrays], roll one off somewhere around the baffle step or at worst, ~ 1 WL away [in Hz] because otherwise it decreases clarity, detail and in some cases we even add super tweeters to further increase clarity, detail, so again 'preaching to the choir' in general, but too far out of sync with literally at least a century's worth of knowledge on the subject, so at this point please give it a rest.
I guess you nerdlingers just have to accept the fact, that a chinese maker of Coral and Diatone lookalike drivers finally managed to create drivers that don't need a run in period and are awesome in any type of cabinet and don't need that hullaballoo of speaker placement and room treatment to be the world's best.
It was about time "with literally at least a century's worth of knowledge on the subject"
It was about time "with literally at least a century's worth of knowledge on the subject"
Well, it is not your non-tech style or your weird ideas. You should try writing in complete sentences with a beginning and an end and stay on subject for more than one sentence. To be honoust, to me you are talking jibberish. It might be all completely clear in your mind, for the average reader it makes no sence at all. Like I said, maybe English is not your native language, but try writing in a more understandable way.
I will attempt to write clear, less expressive
OK here we go
Guy on audiogon posted on my topic,,
Quaote:: **well if the speakers are Full Range,,,why do you need to adda midwoofer/tweeter..**
Hows that for crystal clear language.
OK lets continue,,as much as i have time to continue,,,
I suggested this
DIYers wish I keep the tag *Full Range**
Truth be told
they are not FULL Range
I consider FR Full Midrange Speakers,
with added lows and highs.
Let me attempt to explain.
Tell you what read my post over at audiogon.
I do not have time to explain it all over again
11-30 at 8:36 am, the long winded post gives my latest discovery about Full Midrange performance.
Audiogon Discussion Forum
OK here we go
Guy on audiogon posted on my topic,,
Quaote:: **well if the speakers are Full Range,,,why do you need to adda midwoofer/tweeter..**
Hows that for crystal clear language.
OK lets continue,,as much as i have time to continue,,,
I suggested this
DIYers wish I keep the tag *Full Range**
Truth be told
they are not FULL Range
I consider FR Full Midrange Speakers,
with added lows and highs.
Let me attempt to explain.
Tell you what read my post over at audiogon.
I do not have time to explain it all over again
11-30 at 8:36 am, the long winded post gives my latest discovery about Full Midrange performance.
Audiogon Discussion Forum
Well, looking at that link to Audiogon, your posts continue to be almost incomprehensible due to the lack of sentence structure, abrupt changes of theme etc., so it is a major chore both to read, and attempt to understand what your latest random brain discharge appears to be about. Nor is this forum geared up to debate what people have posted elsewhere.
Making a manful attempt to translate it though, you appear to be announcing that 'fullrange drive unit' is an euphemism for 'widebandwidth midrange'. Yes. You are preaching to the choir. This is a very well-known and unremarkable fact. All loudspeaker drive units are bandpass devices: 'fullrange' is simply a term used loosely in this context to refer to single drive unit that attempts to cover a wider portion of the main 20Hz - 20KHz audio band than many others. That's all. What you appear to be doing, or at least think you are doing, is creating a 3-way loudspeaker where the midrange driver cover a wider than usual range. This would be well and good, but you are running your Seas midbass drivers up to around 1KHz, which is actually somewhat higher than most quality 3-ways run their LF units.
I see that you have repeated the fiction that loudspeakers with a crossover in the 1KHz - 5KHz region have 'low sensitivity mids'. This is gibbering nonsense, as you were told some time ago. There are hundreds (thousands) of loudspeaker designs which have relatively high sensitivity (as in well over 90dB 1m/2.83v) which also have a crossover in this region. This has been mentioned to you before, so do yourself and everybody else a favour and stop repeating this twaddle. For example, see the attached. This is the farfield measured response (ignore the < 400Hz region) of the pictured, relatively compact loudspeaker, which as you can see averages a nominal 94dB 1m/2.83v.
Making a manful attempt to translate it though, you appear to be announcing that 'fullrange drive unit' is an euphemism for 'widebandwidth midrange'. Yes. You are preaching to the choir. This is a very well-known and unremarkable fact. All loudspeaker drive units are bandpass devices: 'fullrange' is simply a term used loosely in this context to refer to single drive unit that attempts to cover a wider portion of the main 20Hz - 20KHz audio band than many others. That's all. What you appear to be doing, or at least think you are doing, is creating a 3-way loudspeaker where the midrange driver
I see that you have repeated the fiction that loudspeakers with a crossover in the 1KHz - 5KHz region have 'low sensitivity mids'. This is gibbering nonsense, as you were told some time ago. There are hundreds (thousands) of loudspeaker designs which have relatively high sensitivity (as in well over 90dB 1m/2.83v) which also have a crossover in this region. This has been mentioned to you before, so do yourself and everybody else a favour and stop repeating this twaddle. For example, see the attached. This is the farfield measured response (ignore the < 400Hz region) of the pictured, relatively compact loudspeaker, which as you can see averages a nominal 94dB 1m/2.83v.
Attachments
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If I understand your design you are using a seas woofer up to about 1kHz, next you use two fullrangedrivers without any filter that share one enclosure that is too small for them, and then you are using a tweeter with a single 8 or 10uF cap which means it will have output down to the point the woofers stops and then you are talking about adding a second tweeters. So now it is a thrown together three and a half way? four way? or even five way system? but you keep referring to it as fullrange????? (no clue how you have thrown it all together, your posts are unreadable because not one single sentence has a normal linguistic structure that other people can understand)
This sounds like a system that has a lot of overlap between the drivers with a lot of lobing and phase issues and a plaine terrible power response. Such loudspeakers can sound spectacular on some recordings but will simply sound horrible with a lot of other music, but there is always the recording to blame isn't it. It is clear that you are indeed non-tchnical and obviously havent' got a clue what you are doing actually. But as long as you enjoy music the best this way that's all fine, it's only a hobby after all but please don't start preaching that it is the best of the best, it ain't.
This sounds like a system that has a lot of overlap between the drivers with a lot of lobing and phase issues and a plaine terrible power response. Such loudspeakers can sound spectacular on some recordings but will simply sound horrible with a lot of other music, but there is always the recording to blame isn't it. It is clear that you are indeed non-tchnical and obviously havent' got a clue what you are doing actually. But as long as you enjoy music the best this way that's all fine, it's only a hobby after all but please don't start preaching that it is the best of the best, it ain't.
I've tried to avoid this subject because he 'sounds' like a typical local IME, same as me, what with my inordinate amount of colloquialisms that I caught a lot of 'flak' for early on the WWW, so finally I emailed a slew of known 'Foreigners' that hadn't banned or at least 'burned me in effigy', if they preferred I only post in textbook English and to a man [woman? no way to tell with all these weirdo monikers] said in essence, 'please knock yourself out as it's a great way for us to learn', i.e. virtually nothing on the net at the time to research, so like to think I've been a bit of a minor pioneer of sorts.
In short, I have trouble with many of the folks that seem to rely on Google Translate or similar, so I just keep asking for clarification till I either understand or one/both of us give up, so IMNSHO ya'll should too or just put him/others as required in your IGNORE list like I've periodically been forced to do for one reason or another.
It was about time "with literally at least a century's worth of knowledge on the subject"
Indeed! Though so far, all I've gleaned from the music videos is there's some new, relatively expensive 'clay Pigeons' for Skeet practice!
I don't believe it course if the published specs/measurement
OK
Thanks for everyones kind imput and pleasing manner of tonal discussion.
If you *Get* half of what I am saying,, then this is good.
I will try to write very plain, elementary style.
This might reduce the incoherent language issues you guys find with my way of expression.
Lets see.
OK Midwoofer to 1khz
Running 2 Mundorf caps, each $100+ per cap, I have no cash fora 3rd M cap and this would take hz xover to say, 500/600hz.
But why?
I can hardly hear much going on with the W16, The W18 Excel is IMHO the worlds best 6 inch midwoofer, magnesium, = winner cone material,
Very stiff, rock solid sub bass with the Defy's 100 watts a channel.
Eliminated 1 driver.
I think 1 will givea better response vs a pair. Not sure
If I want o add the 2nd, i will, all depends.
Dual FR.
OK, maybe not anyone's cup of tea.
I get that.
Just listened to Santana/McLaughlin, Love Devotion Surrender last night.
Guitars came through cleanly, clearly, with a tad too much warmth,,but better than a single FR, according to my persoanl preferences.
You might hate duals.
Yes glad we all agree these high tech Full range really are super midrange, complete mid band in all its colors, tones, textures,.
Here's my point. I do not care for how a mid bass driver delivers the fq's above,,say 1400,,no make it 1200 hz,,,nor do I care for how a tweeter sings the 1800/2k/2200 through to say,,, 4khz's. maybe even 5 khz's.
I have no issues whatsoever with a magnesium midwoofer being employed as assist up to say, 1000hz, better 600hz, all depends on amp, and pure true wattage.
tweeters , domes only please, fantastic with FR starting at say 5khz, as i have it with a M EVOSG 8.2 cap, The Philips sounds fantastic.
Will test a Seas clone Nd sometime in Janurary.
A SET amp is well known for wonderful mids, the 2 end bands are somewhat rolled off, as you well know.
So its hard to say how the 4 drivers sound with a higher power PP amp.
Better dynamics is my guess....
The jury is still out, as to HOW much a success the Dual FR turned out, ,,,testing will continue through early next year.
CM being mostly mid band and as ypu know is miced far away from instruments, as its the only way to get the whole as a unit in the recording.
I'm starting to hear details that were a bare hush, especially in the gently played notes, now come through the thick of other more aggressive played sections, and I pick these nuances up in amazement.
Tahts the reason i planed this scheme of pairing up dual FR's.
I knew it goes against The Rules.
If we put this speaker in Carlson's lab, his equipment will show gobs of distortion, , spikes, who knows what other ugly things he will see on his measuring gadgets.
The Duo is permanent , Carlsons testing results won't sway me the least bit to dump this project.
Trust me, it will fail all your measurements to qualify as a **High Fidelity loud speaker**
Let me get back to my delicious cup of tea.. wink
Thanks for everyones kind imput and pleasing manner of tonal discussion.
If you *Get* half of what I am saying,, then this is good.
I will try to write very plain, elementary style.
This might reduce the incoherent language issues you guys find with my way of expression.
Lets see.
OK Midwoofer to 1khz
Running 2 Mundorf caps, each $100+ per cap, I have no cash fora 3rd M cap and this would take hz xover to say, 500/600hz.
But why?
I can hardly hear much going on with the W16, The W18 Excel is IMHO the worlds best 6 inch midwoofer, magnesium, = winner cone material,
Very stiff, rock solid sub bass with the Defy's 100 watts a channel.
Eliminated 1 driver.
I think 1 will givea better response vs a pair. Not sure
If I want o add the 2nd, i will, all depends.
Dual FR.
OK, maybe not anyone's cup of tea.
I get that.
Just listened to Santana/McLaughlin, Love Devotion Surrender last night.
Guitars came through cleanly, clearly, with a tad too much warmth,,but better than a single FR, according to my persoanl preferences.
You might hate duals.
Yes glad we all agree these high tech Full range really are super midrange, complete mid band in all its colors, tones, textures,.
Here's my point. I do not care for how a mid bass driver delivers the fq's above,,say 1400,,no make it 1200 hz,,,nor do I care for how a tweeter sings the 1800/2k/2200 through to say,,, 4khz's. maybe even 5 khz's.
I have no issues whatsoever with a magnesium midwoofer being employed as assist up to say, 1000hz, better 600hz, all depends on amp, and pure true wattage.
tweeters , domes only please, fantastic with FR starting at say 5khz, as i have it with a M EVOSG 8.2 cap, The Philips sounds fantastic.
Will test a Seas clone Nd sometime in Janurary.
A SET amp is well known for wonderful mids, the 2 end bands are somewhat rolled off, as you well know.
So its hard to say how the 4 drivers sound with a higher power PP amp.
Better dynamics is my guess....
The jury is still out, as to HOW much a success the Dual FR turned out, ,,,testing will continue through early next year.
CM being mostly mid band and as ypu know is miced far away from instruments, as its the only way to get the whole as a unit in the recording.
I'm starting to hear details that were a bare hush, especially in the gently played notes, now come through the thick of other more aggressive played sections, and I pick these nuances up in amazement.
Tahts the reason i planed this scheme of pairing up dual FR's.
I knew it goes against The Rules.
If we put this speaker in Carlson's lab, his equipment will show gobs of distortion, , spikes, who knows what other ugly things he will see on his measuring gadgets.
The Duo is permanent , Carlsons testing results won't sway me the least bit to dump this project.
Trust me, it will fail all your measurements to qualify as a **High Fidelity loud speaker**
Let me get back to my delicious cup of tea.. wink
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Not really, since it's nonsense.
Leaving aside the branding on the side of the component (irrelevant), how would it do that? Based on what you've apparently said on this subject, there is no way you can halve your crossover frequency by simply adding a small amount to the value of a shunt capacitor.
Now that is what we call a lie. Please indicate where this agreement you are claiming exists. Because all I can see are a bunch of people saying the exact opposite (your videos are a train-wreck as far as midband quality is concerned). While you are doing that, you could perhaps indicate the nature of this 'high technology' you are claiming, since the drive units in question, based on the available information, have fairly basic motors, and no advanced features in their basket, suspension or cone designs.
Paul’s last several posts constituted some of the most convoluted word salad I’ve read here in quite some time - my own included.
Be happy on your journey mate; your delusional wonderland sounds like a delightful respite from reality, but please don’t assert consensus that’s not been given.
Be happy on your journey mate; your delusional wonderland sounds like a delightful respite from reality, but please don’t assert consensus that’s not been given.
Truth is Allan Pettersson's symphomies never spunded as good as with my new Duo Super Wide Midrange drivers with added assist.
thats what my goal was, and its have been a achieved.
I knew xover types speakers were flawed.
Now that I have found what I was always looking for these past 4 or 5 decades, I;'m a happy audiophile
Seek and ye shall find
so true.
btw why all the flak,,whats up with the snides,, I thought we FR groupies were all in this as a team effort,,,
guess not.
I did not come here to make friendship , only to report some experiments,
You don't like it, well keep the snides to yourselves please.
happy Holidays.
Dont be scrouges.
No more Ba Humbug
thats what my goal was, and its have been a achieved.
I knew xover types speakers were flawed.
Now that I have found what I was always looking for these past 4 or 5 decades, I;'m a happy audiophile
Seek and ye shall find
so true.
btw why all the flak,,whats up with the snides,, I thought we FR groupies were all in this as a team effort,,,
guess not.
I did not come here to make friendship , only to report some experiments,
You don't like it, well keep the snides to yourselves please.
happy Holidays.
Dont be scrouges.
No more Ba Humbug