Yes, it's not bad for a compressed youtube video, and he does at least appear to be playing the speakers, which isn't always the case. He looks to have put a little attention into the crossover to the supertweeter too, which is good.
FExx8e∑ series were released from about 2000, replacing the previous FExx8Sigma units. They were very popular in the first decade of the century, but with the appearance of other drivers, attention slipped somewhat. They continue to be very popular in Japan, and have a steady, if quiet presence in the West. While far from perfect, they're good examples of their type & certainly better engineered than some drivers I could mention. As noted though, they do need to be properly implemented.
Correct (more or less) re twin wideband drivers run without filtering. Think of it like this. You have two units playing the same frequency range & material. But if those drive units are on a flat baffle, then they will be at physically different distances from your ears: one will always be further away from the other. Its output will therefore arrive at the listening position slightly later than the unit closer to you, and this delay causes destructive interference (cancellations). You can get away with this to a point with a line array of small drivers because there are so many arranged in a column, and they are each packed very close together. With a couple of larger units it can be a problem.
Personally I suggest you look at something such as the Basszilla project (at least one of which uses the FE208ESigma). It's a properly designed and implemented design by somebody who knows what he's doing, and you're not likely to be able to match it without measurement gear and a lot of experience. Nor is it a particularly difficult project to build. It's not cheap, but you'll save money in the long run because you won't be making expensive mistakes, or buying drivers you either don't need, or decide don't suit your requirements. This is why we often advise people who don't necessarily want to take up speaker design as a hobby, to build a high quality, proven project of a type that will suit their requirements. It tends to save a lot of grief, and usually brings a lot of enjoyable listening.
FExx8e∑ series were released from about 2000, replacing the previous FExx8Sigma units. They were very popular in the first decade of the century, but with the appearance of other drivers, attention slipped somewhat. They continue to be very popular in Japan, and have a steady, if quiet presence in the West. While far from perfect, they're good examples of their type & certainly better engineered than some drivers I could mention. As noted though, they do need to be properly implemented.
Correct (more or less) re twin wideband drivers run without filtering. Think of it like this. You have two units playing the same frequency range & material. But if those drive units are on a flat baffle, then they will be at physically different distances from your ears: one will always be further away from the other. Its output will therefore arrive at the listening position slightly later than the unit closer to you, and this delay causes destructive interference (cancellations). You can get away with this to a point with a line array of small drivers because there are so many arranged in a column, and they are each packed very close together. With a couple of larger units it can be a problem.
Personally I suggest you look at something such as the Basszilla project (at least one of which uses the FE208ESigma). It's a properly designed and implemented design by somebody who knows what he's doing, and you're not likely to be able to match it without measurement gear and a lot of experience. Nor is it a particularly difficult project to build. It's not cheap, but you'll save money in the long run because you won't be making expensive mistakes, or buying drivers you either don't need, or decide don't suit your requirements. This is why we often advise people who don't necessarily want to take up speaker design as a hobby, to build a high quality, proven project of a type that will suit their requirements. It tends to save a lot of grief, and usually brings a lot of enjoyable listening.
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As Scott alludes many of us here have journeyed this path for decades -indeed some even retired from active building- each with a long list of projects in our design catalog and photo albums that delivered varying degrees of satisfaction. I count myself among those.
Of the numerous models of Fostex I’ve had the opportunity to play with over a period of close to 20yrs, the FE108e∑ was certainly that could elicit some wonderfully seductive midrange- particularly in combination with fleawatt SET amps - but needed a lot of help to deliver anything approximating even decent upper bass or top end above maybe what, 12k?
While not as gorgeously built or as costly, I’ll echo the opinion that the much newer FFxxxWK series offer excellent performance value and are suited for a much wider range of enclosure sizes / configurations.
Re-read all of Scott’s posts in this thread very carefully, he’s offering some very sage advice, with far less fan-boy filtering or self approbation than most.
Of the numerous models of Fostex I’ve had the opportunity to play with over a period of close to 20yrs, the FE108e∑ was certainly that could elicit some wonderfully seductive midrange- particularly in combination with fleawatt SET amps - but needed a lot of help to deliver anything approximating even decent upper bass or top end above maybe what, 12k?
While not as gorgeously built or as costly, I’ll echo the opinion that the much newer FFxxxWK series offer excellent performance value and are suited for a much wider range of enclosure sizes / configurations.
Re-read all of Scott’s posts in this thread very carefully, he’s offering some very sage advice, with far less fan-boy filtering or self approbation than most.
If determined to run two disparate 'FR' drivers in parallel, strongly recommend learning how to do it right: http://community.fortunecity.ws/rivendell/xentar/1179/theory/dddllqd/dddllqd.html
Hard to believe the new Sigma is not more popular here vs the traditional commercial (aka consumer) speakers how popular and expensive , here in the USA.
My big mouth has sure given some public attention.
Im reading comments from 1st hearers, **wow, what a musical experience,,** My initial reaction is just like that, simply put ,,UNREALLLL. (fav mantra)
these FR are magical and very special making beautiful music.
I'll take another look at Basszilla and appreciate Scott giving his time for suggestions.
I;'m a newbie and making trial and errors lately.
Audiogonners won't give a inch of consideration for the FR designs.
Called WAW, FR + assist.
IMHO assist are a must.
A single FR won't do for my classical music.
cheers
WOW thats some science there.
Let me share a experience a months ago.
Shrt version
Tried this
DLVX8 + TB2145 , sounded like twin drivers,
Did not work as the mids were wayyy too thick.
Next tried the DL W6 /yellow cone/Nd magnet,
Did not work as the mids were jjust a tad less fidelty vs the superior mids of the DLVX8.
Had a DlW4 little brother to the Yellow 6.
Worked
Diana Krall's voice came alive.
Sunsuous and poetic just came to the surface.
So I can report back, there is something to be had for meshing dual FR as a team.
If one has less superior mid fidelity vs the other, it will not work unless both are of high fidelity.
IOW both have to be same no stressed, non colored, clean midrange
1 can be higher, but both have to be non colored, no signs of stress, clean, smooth.
The DL6 Yellow cone /Nd magnet was not up to the main FR driver, the DLVX8.
I have no issues with 1 driver being closer to my ear, and thus making a mess of the sound waves.
Not at all.
As long as the 2nd added FR is very well behaved, I have no issues as a assist for the principle driver which is the DLVX8.
How the FE128EZ might work in , is going to take some work
Matbe pull out the DLVX8 and make it a
168+108..Yeah I know all the measurments show heavy intermodal distortion.
But if I like the sound, thats really all that matters.
IMHO the only way you can make a duo
is TB with TB
DL with DL and FE with FE, can't mix any of these labs together,. Signature sound with same signature sound.
anyway,, thats whats going on in my lab,
Thorsten and a few that tried it proved otherwise, so again, just to your ears. The line array folks using small 'FR' drivers have proved your point though.
In either case, room acoustics and listening distance has as much to do with it as the driver choice, so as always it's the implementation that makes/breaks the audio experience.
In either case, room acoustics and listening distance has as much to do with it as the driver choice
Yep,
Just took off the DLW4 listened to classical orchestra/
The W4 is NOT necessary, just gets in the way.
I only wish to report though, that I;'ve heard the Diana Krall cd 20x's, when added the W4, I noted a new rendering of her talents.
Thats all I can report back to you guys, So maybe in jazz/vocals the W4 adds a new twist to some mids,,
But as for classical orchestra, SQ's ,, NOT necesasary, just gets in the way.
I'll ship the W4's as well out to a friend along with all the other experiemented FR drivers.
I dont horde and am only looking for the best of the best.
My guess is the Fostex will indeed live up to its reputation.
AER/Voxativ, might be superior, but I would not touch either with their obnoxious price tags. Grossly over priced snakeoil.
I should have come here 1st, before experiementing. Could have saved alottt of cash.
Lets say I asked the Q last year.
**Which speaker do you feel is the best FR ? for my preferences**
Vote would go Fostex I'm sure.
And IMHO sems the Sigma series is the one best fits my needs.
Now I have to RE-think it
FE208Sigma
vs
FE168Sigma
208 has wayy too high a Sens @ 97db.
Yep no doubt the 168Sigma is the one best for my preferences, very near field, low SPL listening, nothing overly aggressive in mid voicing.
Thanks for everyones patience with me here,, green but trying to learn.
But surely all your respones have allowed me to stay focused on
a **Single** Fr speaker, DUO is Canceled. and also you guys help direct me to the super Sigma FR drivers.
Huge help there as I was near purchasing the Davidlouis VX6.
Can't really afford another trail and error mistake.
This hobby can break the piggy bank for sure.
Just took off the DLW4 listened to classical orchestra/
The W4 is NOT necessary, just gets in the way.
I only wish to report though, that I;'ve heard the Diana Krall cd 20x's, when added the W4, I noted a new rendering of her talents.
Thats all I can report back to you guys, So maybe in jazz/vocals the W4 adds a new twist to some mids,,
But as for classical orchestra, SQ's ,, NOT necesasary, just gets in the way.
I'll ship the W4's as well out to a friend along with all the other experiemented FR drivers.
I dont horde and am only looking for the best of the best.
My guess is the Fostex will indeed live up to its reputation.
AER/Voxativ, might be superior, but I would not touch either with their obnoxious price tags. Grossly over priced snakeoil.
I should have come here 1st, before experiementing. Could have saved alottt of cash.
Lets say I asked the Q last year.
**Which speaker do you feel is the best FR ? for my preferences**
Vote would go Fostex I'm sure.
And IMHO sems the Sigma series is the one best fits my needs.
Now I have to RE-think it
FE208Sigma
vs
FE168Sigma
208 has wayy too high a Sens @ 97db.
Yep no doubt the 168Sigma is the one best for my preferences, very near field, low SPL listening, nothing overly aggressive in mid voicing.
Thanks for everyones patience with me here,, green but trying to learn.
But surely all your respones have allowed me to stay focused on
a **Single** Fr speaker, DUO is Canceled. and also you guys help direct me to the super Sigma FR drivers.
Huge help there as I was near purchasing the Davidlouis VX6.
Can't really afford another trail and error mistake.
This hobby can break the piggy bank for sure.
As i was listening to Schnittke's VC's /Kremer/Eschenbach,,,w/o the DLW4, much more intimate, cleaner, less muddled IN ORCHESTRA . As I listen only to CM genre, the W4 will not be added in the mix
\However
If I were also a big jazz fan
w/o a doubt the DLW4 will be added in when i am listening to jazz.
All based on what i heard in the Diana Krall cd experience..
So in jazz, I'm won on a dual FR set up.
In CM/big orchestra , a single FR is the deal.
At least thats the way I'm hearing things.
The W4 brought in more nunaces.
Now this might not at all be true with Fostex.
Perhaps the FE168 is so rich in details/nuances/ linear band width, then most likely adding in a FE108EZ will only clutter up the image..,, then again,,,,
I don't know.
These things have to be tested out.
Opinions?
\However
If I were also a big jazz fan
w/o a doubt the DLW4 will be added in when i am listening to jazz.
All based on what i heard in the Diana Krall cd experience..
So in jazz, I'm won on a dual FR set up.
In CM/big orchestra , a single FR is the deal.
At least thats the way I'm hearing things.
The W4 brought in more nunaces.
Now this might not at all be true with Fostex.
Perhaps the FE168 is so rich in details/nuances/ linear band width, then most likely adding in a FE108EZ will only clutter up the image..,, then again,,,,
I don't know.
These things have to be tested out.
Opinions?
Financial resources are among the numerous things that can be affected deleteriously by long term addiction to this hobby.
Yes, it’s a rabbit hole with potential for more dead ends than successful transits, with as much risk for analysis paralysis as any; I try to avoid analogies.
FWIW, of the several multi-way systems described as W.A.W. (previously FAST) that I’ve built and found most satisfying, the mid/tweeters used were either Fostex FF85K, FF85WK, or Mark Audio Alpair 7. All of those drivers are classified as “full-range” (in the sense that they can be driven to moderately loud volume levels without bandpass filters and little risk of damage), but all certainly benefit from assistance in the bottom several octaves. In fact much improvement in overall dynamics, mid-range clarity and maximum sustainable SPL was found when they were actually LP filtered anywhere between 250- mid 300s (upper end of bass /lower midrange as delineated in graph linked in GM’s post #126 above), and supported by medium sized mid-woofers per size. This of course makes them a 2way, but with an XO point at least 2-3 octaves lower than commonly implemented when using small dome or ribbon tweeters.
With apologies to any friends of felines present, there’s lots of ways to skin a cat.
Yes, it’s a rabbit hole with potential for more dead ends than successful transits, with as much risk for analysis paralysis as any; I try to avoid analogies.
FWIW, of the several multi-way systems described as W.A.W. (previously FAST) that I’ve built and found most satisfying, the mid/tweeters used were either Fostex FF85K, FF85WK, or Mark Audio Alpair 7. All of those drivers are classified as “full-range” (in the sense that they can be driven to moderately loud volume levels without bandpass filters and little risk of damage), but all certainly benefit from assistance in the bottom several octaves. In fact much improvement in overall dynamics, mid-range clarity and maximum sustainable SPL was found when they were actually LP filtered anywhere between 250- mid 300s (upper end of bass /lower midrange as delineated in graph linked in GM’s post #126 above), and supported by medium sized mid-woofers per size. This of course makes them a 2way, but with an XO point at least 2-3 octaves lower than commonly implemented when using small dome or ribbon tweeters.
With apologies to any friends of felines present, there’s lots of ways to skin a cat.
Financial resources are among the numerous things that can be affected deleteriously by long term addiction to this hobby.
Yes, it’s a rabbit hole with potential for more dead ends than successful transits
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm learning now to sleep on things abit..
well this brings me to a dilemma
I know the majority vote is to go with the
FE168EZ, as the mids are cleaner vs the 208 EZ
But then as I'm looking listening to my speaker , if the Fostex performs, its will replace the DLVX8.
Which saying, the Fostex 8 has a deeper bass, wider soundtstage (larger cone mass)
So,,,,,
I have time to decide.
But should we suggest going with the
FE208Sigma for $70 more per driver
@ $277 each
'or
Go to what folks are suggesting.
FE168Sigma
Again what frightens me off from the 208 is the super high sensitivity at a wopping 97db.
Meaning, mids willl be voiced with more force and thus with vol gain on amp pot at 8:30, it may be screaming loud, and not even givinga chance for bass to kick in.
168 @ my ideal sens 94db.
DLVX8 94db.
So thats where things stand.
Will the orch have a wider 'deeper soundstage + bass(larger cone, deeper Fs) . with the 208?
I know the 168 has some good bass bunch as well.
Follow?
I'm like 90% sure the 168 will be my happy medium.
Just cking 1st with you guys if you know anything, like a last call before ship pulls off the dock
Yes, it’s a rabbit hole with potential for more dead ends than successful transits
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm learning now to sleep on things abit..
well this brings me to a dilemma
I know the majority vote is to go with the
FE168EZ, as the mids are cleaner vs the 208 EZ
But then as I'm looking listening to my speaker , if the Fostex performs, its will replace the DLVX8.
Which saying, the Fostex 8 has a deeper bass, wider soundtstage (larger cone mass)
So,,,,,
I have time to decide.
But should we suggest going with the
FE208Sigma for $70 more per driver
@ $277 each
'or
Go to what folks are suggesting.
FE168Sigma
Again what frightens me off from the 208 is the super high sensitivity at a wopping 97db.
Meaning, mids willl be voiced with more force and thus with vol gain on amp pot at 8:30, it may be screaming loud, and not even givinga chance for bass to kick in.
168 @ my ideal sens 94db.
DLVX8 94db.
So thats where things stand.
Will the orch have a wider 'deeper soundstage + bass(larger cone, deeper Fs) . with the 208?
I know the 168 has some good bass bunch as well.
Follow?
I'm like 90% sure the 168 will be my happy medium.
Just cking 1st with you guys if you know anything, like a last call before ship pulls off the dock
Frankly, from your postings, all things considered, I believe you won't be satisfied with < 15" long term same as the pioneers [me too short of the Babb], so now that we have some to choose from again, seriously recommend stepping up and learn how to tweak to 'taste' since in audio as most things material, less is always less.
Paul, forgive the question as you may have posted the answer elsewhere in your several concurrent threads, but any particular reason that you’re enamoured of higher sensitivity drivers? If it’s a matter of being infatuated with the sound of a low powered amp currently in your stable, it’s probably safe to say that there are many here among us who can relate to that; but with the availability of affordable very decent sounding higher powered SS amps, sensitivity has long been far from the top of my short list of mission critical parameters.
As the meme goes “ been there, done that, have the T-shirts”.
Your surname notwithstanding, there is no best, nor even consensus on the calculus for compromise.
As the meme goes “ been there, done that, have the T-shirts”.
Your surname notwithstanding, there is no best, nor even consensus on the calculus for compromise.
Hey Chris
Well yeah , its complex why i love higher sensitivity,
It was only after my very 1st FR purchase that I was made aware of what sensitivity is all about
Makes more music , with less turn of the linetsgae vol pot.
Really cool
So I upgraded the Seas Thors new Millennium tweeters (Tech suggested buy a new pair as 1 tweeter 14 yrs old was off .5 ohms,,,old and new sounded identical, = waste of %750) ,,long story short,, I placed the Davidloius Diatone 6 (what a crappy speaker, trash) has like 90db sens on 1 channel, Thor on the another a s a test to see whats actually going on here,,,,fliped the balance,,,wowowow, OK, so now we kow what sensitivity does.
btw Seas has the thor spec 87db, that might be fudging, I think Seas fudges all the sens #'s. (Boughta single Crescendo Seas FLAGSHIP tweet off ebay, as new in box,, states 92 db, tops maybe 83db IF THAT!!!), anyway,,long story short,,, I knew at that point, higher sensitivity = more life like soundstage.
Even though the Jadis Defy has a rated true 100 watts.
has 12 KT88's.
Has all the power to drive any speaker.
But I like the fact , justa tiny turn of the vol pot and i have POWER, , meaning now the speaker (FR) is doing some of the work, amps best sweetest power is in the 9 oclock turn of the vol pot.
Also my tech says 12 tubes might also add some breakup as the music energy bounces around 12 tubes.
He prefers dual tubes per channle, such as the Jadis JA30 mono blocks, I do too, But bought the beast 2008 w/o knowing anything about these issues.
So i'm stuck with it, has minor corrosion and have installed expensive Mundorf caps in the amp. can't sell it,
IN Dec or jan I will buy a 845 amp, small guy at 50 lbs.
But I know from all the borrowed amps from the the tech, His Allen Organ amp /Kt120, his modded Dynaco ST70/EL34, his designed SET with some sort of 50 tube at 6 wats (has same power punch as the Defy7 100wattts.., ??) They all sounded pretty much same, hardly a noticable dif. So i don't expect much dif with the 22 watt 856 amp either,.I just want the 845 as its affordable $1300 and gives the 12 tube Defy a rest (don't like buying new KT88's at $600) and always wanted to watcha 845 glow in the dark while listening to music.
I associate higher sensitivity with more muisc flowing through the system.
And its true.
The music has this relaxed, natural flow from the FR..simply magic.
I interpret higher sensitivity (90db -95db tops) as high fidelity.
vs Mid Fi, low sensitivity 88/lower
88-90 sort of no mans' land.
Yeah i know Fostex has a few FR at below 90db.
+ the KT88's have 4000+ hours, so this may also affect the music,, Meaning less gain on vol, less stress on tubes, = super fidelity.
Its kind of ideas that I have, Some may be way off, I really should discuss with my tech.
My guess is ideally a true flea watt SET is best pairing with the 94-100 db sens FR speakers.
Correct?
Well yeah , its complex why i love higher sensitivity,
It was only after my very 1st FR purchase that I was made aware of what sensitivity is all about
Makes more music , with less turn of the linetsgae vol pot.
Really cool
So I upgraded the Seas Thors new Millennium tweeters (Tech suggested buy a new pair as 1 tweeter 14 yrs old was off .5 ohms,,,old and new sounded identical, = waste of %750) ,,long story short,, I placed the Davidloius Diatone 6 (what a crappy speaker, trash) has like 90db sens on 1 channel, Thor on the another a s a test to see whats actually going on here,,,,fliped the balance,,,wowowow, OK, so now we kow what sensitivity does.
btw Seas has the thor spec 87db, that might be fudging, I think Seas fudges all the sens #'s. (Boughta single Crescendo Seas FLAGSHIP tweet off ebay, as new in box,, states 92 db, tops maybe 83db IF THAT!!!), anyway,,long story short,,, I knew at that point, higher sensitivity = more life like soundstage.
Even though the Jadis Defy has a rated true 100 watts.
has 12 KT88's.
Has all the power to drive any speaker.
But I like the fact , justa tiny turn of the vol pot and i have POWER, , meaning now the speaker (FR) is doing some of the work, amps best sweetest power is in the 9 oclock turn of the vol pot.
Also my tech says 12 tubes might also add some breakup as the music energy bounces around 12 tubes.
He prefers dual tubes per channle, such as the Jadis JA30 mono blocks, I do too, But bought the beast 2008 w/o knowing anything about these issues.
So i'm stuck with it, has minor corrosion and have installed expensive Mundorf caps in the amp. can't sell it,
IN Dec or jan I will buy a 845 amp, small guy at 50 lbs.
But I know from all the borrowed amps from the the tech, His Allen Organ amp /Kt120, his modded Dynaco ST70/EL34, his designed SET with some sort of 50 tube at 6 wats (has same power punch as the Defy7 100wattts.., ??) They all sounded pretty much same, hardly a noticable dif. So i don't expect much dif with the 22 watt 856 amp either,.I just want the 845 as its affordable $1300 and gives the 12 tube Defy a rest (don't like buying new KT88's at $600) and always wanted to watcha 845 glow in the dark while listening to music.
I associate higher sensitivity with more muisc flowing through the system.
And its true.
The music has this relaxed, natural flow from the FR..simply magic.
I interpret higher sensitivity (90db -95db tops) as high fidelity.
vs Mid Fi, low sensitivity 88/lower
88-90 sort of no mans' land.
Yeah i know Fostex has a few FR at below 90db.
+ the KT88's have 4000+ hours, so this may also affect the music,, Meaning less gain on vol, less stress on tubes, = super fidelity.
Its kind of ideas that I have, Some may be way off, I really should discuss with my tech.
My guess is ideally a true flea watt SET is best pairing with the 94-100 db sens FR speakers.
Correct?
there is no best, nor even consensus on the calculus for compromise.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hummm, well I know many of you hobbists have learned through the years, one speaker can always be ** bested** in some miniscule way vs the one that seemed **The Best**, and now you know its been defeated in some tiny regard.
1st i bought the Philips 475 /1981, Thought the world of that speaker front tag said **High Fidelity Speaker** and in some ways that clear dome tweeter is still a standard for life like vocals,
But placing the Thor on 1 channel 475 2 way on the other back in 2005, wowo, 475 reduced to ashes...fast forward to 2020, Diatone 1 channel, Thor the other,,, Now I heard the Thor as The Wet Blanket speaker.
One speaker destroys the next.
and so it goes.
my hunch is the Fostex 6 is going to annihilate my beloved *don't get no better* DLVX8.
But again we can't say for sure until the actual shootout takes place.
If the Fostex Sigma pergorms as I **imagine** it will, then for me it becomes The Best High Fidelity Speaker, 2nd to none.
This is how I hear things/placea value on a FR speaker.
(at this point AER and Voxativ don't exist)
But honestly whats it all about, when fact is many of my classical cds, are not recorded in high fidelity.
I only know high fidelity via test cds, Diana Krall is OK, but recorded in aTHE classic jazz very warm mode.
Sophie Milman, yes, here i can determine what value of fidelity ratuing to place ona speaker.
Burt Bacharach/Elvis Costello painted From Memory cd
a few others.
hardly have any classical music cd where I can make a clear judgement.
Still I want the best FR I can find (exempt the 2 german labs, which don't exist for me)
You guys have been around Fr all your life and these super high fidelity speakers are nothing *New* to your music.
Whereas for me its like the music has come to life.
All because ofa higher gain in sensitivity.
Here is a video of the Seas Thors..
AS my tech left the room, his comment was like,,**eh..*** I knew right away the Thors were NOT anything special.
He has double stack Nova 7 radio Shak that he loves along with Magneplan, and a dozen other speakers..
So i knew at that moment, to look for trueER HifI. Which brought me to The FR Experience.
here 's the Thor video
Music starts at 4:24. man was I happy with the Thors prformance,,,til a FR came along.
btw the Millennium tweeter has life like vocals, W18E001's clean clear upper bass/lower mids, no coloration, no fatigue , ,,,which most speakers suffer from in my limited experience. ..87dn sens, lets be real, maybe 85db. have to turn the gain to 10 oclock.
With the DLVX8 only have to turn gain to 9 oclock for same SPL.
I listen at very near field, say 70 db max. Low/moderate SPL, never loud.
Ohh last idea
With Alfread Schnittke 's music, his notes can go from delicate hush to full throttle orchestra in one work.
So witha FR, the music never suffers from either too low nor too high a setting. With the Thors I have to get out my seat at times to either turn the vol up,,and then,,, turn it back down as its starting to blare..
With FR,,, I never have this issue of huge SPL peaks and valleys.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hummm, well I know many of you hobbists have learned through the years, one speaker can always be ** bested** in some miniscule way vs the one that seemed **The Best**, and now you know its been defeated in some tiny regard.
1st i bought the Philips 475 /1981, Thought the world of that speaker front tag said **High Fidelity Speaker** and in some ways that clear dome tweeter is still a standard for life like vocals,
But placing the Thor on 1 channel 475 2 way on the other back in 2005, wowo, 475 reduced to ashes...fast forward to 2020, Diatone 1 channel, Thor the other,,, Now I heard the Thor as The Wet Blanket speaker.
One speaker destroys the next.
and so it goes.
my hunch is the Fostex 6 is going to annihilate my beloved *don't get no better* DLVX8.
But again we can't say for sure until the actual shootout takes place.
If the Fostex Sigma pergorms as I **imagine** it will, then for me it becomes The Best High Fidelity Speaker, 2nd to none.
This is how I hear things/placea value on a FR speaker.
(at this point AER and Voxativ don't exist)
But honestly whats it all about, when fact is many of my classical cds, are not recorded in high fidelity.
I only know high fidelity via test cds, Diana Krall is OK, but recorded in aTHE classic jazz very warm mode.
Sophie Milman, yes, here i can determine what value of fidelity ratuing to place ona speaker.
Burt Bacharach/Elvis Costello painted From Memory cd
a few others.
hardly have any classical music cd where I can make a clear judgement.
Still I want the best FR I can find (exempt the 2 german labs, which don't exist for me)
You guys have been around Fr all your life and these super high fidelity speakers are nothing *New* to your music.
Whereas for me its like the music has come to life.
All because ofa higher gain in sensitivity.
Here is a video of the Seas Thors..
AS my tech left the room, his comment was like,,**eh..*** I knew right away the Thors were NOT anything special.
He has double stack Nova 7 radio Shak that he loves along with Magneplan, and a dozen other speakers..
So i knew at that moment, to look for trueER HifI. Which brought me to The FR Experience.
here 's the Thor video
Music starts at 4:24. man was I happy with the Thors prformance,,,til a FR came along.
btw the Millennium tweeter has life like vocals, W18E001's clean clear upper bass/lower mids, no coloration, no fatigue , ,,,which most speakers suffer from in my limited experience. ..87dn sens, lets be real, maybe 85db. have to turn the gain to 10 oclock.
With the DLVX8 only have to turn gain to 9 oclock for same SPL.
I listen at very near field, say 70 db max. Low/moderate SPL, never loud.
Ohh last idea
With Alfread Schnittke 's music, his notes can go from delicate hush to full throttle orchestra in one work.
So witha FR, the music never suffers from either too low nor too high a setting. With the Thors I have to get out my seat at times to either turn the vol up,,and then,,, turn it back down as its starting to blare..
With FR,,, I never have this issue of huge SPL peaks and valleys.
Depends on the peak SPL required, i.e. I have some recordings with +30 dB transients, so if listening at the THX 85 dB average [pretty loud] and have 1% eff. [92 dB] speakers, then we need 115-92 = +23 dB = 10^[23/10] = ~200 W
From this we see that 1 W requires 115 dB eff. speakers in this example, so 'flea' power would require a large cinema horn speaker array.
SET amp's soft clipping is perceived as euphonic to many, so while it can't begin to track high power transients, folks still find it pleasing ['lush' is a common description], though obviously the more efficiency the better.
FWIW I find your resistance to high efficiency [~99 dB [5%] -up] interesting since in my 'adventures in audio' I kept going ever higher, finally deciding that ~112 dB was the point of diminishing returns for HIFI and later, HT apps.
I suspect it's one of those facts he's indadvertently invented that aren't actually facts. For instance:
No. High[er] sensitivity is not an synonym for 'the mids will be voiced with more force'. The driver's frequency response, its electromechanical damping characterisitcs, the driving amplifier, and the enclosure determine that, not it's bald sensitivity rating.
In a similar scenario:
Really? There hasn't been a vote here, and as far as I can see, nobody has even expressed a view on this other than yourself. So you seem to be making up these 'facts' again. As it happens, based on the factory measurements, there isn't much to choose between the two drivers on-axis, up to about 3KHz. Above that, the 208 is arguably superior, although this depends a little on where your priorities lie. Note I am not advocating for either unit (or any specific unit), just raising some simple technical points.
I still strongly recommend you look at building a proven project e.g. Basszilla, which may also make you revise your views about amplifier purchases.
No. High[er] sensitivity is not an synonym for 'the mids will be voiced with more force'. The driver's frequency response, its electromechanical damping characterisitcs, the driving amplifier, and the enclosure determine that, not it's bald sensitivity rating.
In a similar scenario:
Really? There hasn't been a vote here, and as far as I can see, nobody has even expressed a view on this other than yourself. So you seem to be making up these 'facts' again.
As it happens, based on the factory measurements, there isn't much to choose between the two drivers on-axis, up to about 3KHz. Above that, the 208 is arguably superior, although this depends a little on where your priorities lie. Note I am not advocating for either unit (or any specific unit), just raising some simple technical points. I still strongly recommend you look at building a proven project e.g. Basszilla, which may also make you revise your views about amplifier purchases.
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My friends SET 50 tube amp has Colbalt output transformers. His amp witha 50 tube has slam like the Defy 7 PP 100 watts.
maybe I need to hear a 845 amp with the FR to get a better idea of what a lower watt amp does with FR.
Spec says 22 watts, we 'll find out, maybe Janurary.
Looking foward to a FR + 845 tube sound.
Its possible my friends colbalt trans ($1K each) just offer tioo much slam for the famour SET finesse. He says its 6 watts, but the vol gain on the linestage is exactly the same setting for same SPL on the Defy7's 100watt amp.
Then again if I did go with a true low flea watt amp say 4-6 watts, maybe the power would not be enough to get the low db sens Seas W18E001's a working,,, sort of half power.
These midwoofers need power to work right.
.I've only herad the DLVX8 with 95db sens. AS yet not herad anything higher. So I'm guessing about higher sens, lower bass repsnse. I picked this up from AER's site,. They offer 2 models in each design. 1 has higher sens and the other slightly lower db sens **to increase bass response**
These FR do not require much power to bring i the magic.. But its the woofers and tweeters assist that may require the power to have better response.
This is what I am trying to say
I suspect it's one of those facts he's indadvertently invented that aren't actually facts. For instance:
No. High[er] sensitivity is not an synonym for 'the mids will be voiced with more force'. The driver's frequency response, its electromechanical damping characterisitcs, the driving amplifier, and the enclosure determine that, not it's bald sensitivity rating.
In a similar scenario:
Really? There hasn't been a vote here, and as far as I can see, nobody has even expressed a view on this other than yourself. So you seem to be making up these 'facts' again.
I still strongly recommend you look at building a proven project e.g. Basszilla, which may also make you revise your views about amplifier purchases.
I'll look closely at Basszilla today.
WEll I may have read someones comment about the 108 or 168 as tighter mid response vs the 208.
I will copy this page and take it over to discuss with my tech, for better understanding about synergy and how these things work.
btw davidLouis finally wrote back
The VX8 is ferrite.
The VX6 is Nd+ Ferrite.
Last posts have made me aware this is science involved and out my range of knowhow.
Should have come here 1st before I made all the FR purchases past 2 years.
I'll study the Basszilla design today.
One thing we FRists all agree on, in midrange nothing quie like a high end FR.
I find it odd that more folks have not yet made the switch from xover 2/3 way types and made the FR discovery.
Marketing? Going with the popular vote?
But like myself I only recall some posts on Audiogon back in 2004ish, **Fostex, Lowther have some issues...*** and hardly much support for these drivers. So i dismissed FR as a possible speaker choice.
IN 2018 I came back into the hobby and this is when i started looking at the Davidlouis on Ebay,,,I thought,,,wow cool looking.
After the Thor *upgrade* disaster, I know time for something new.
Then making the realization that classical muisc mainly falls in mids,,so what speaker does mids beautifully.
Full Range does.
All the years I missed the FR experience.
Better late than never.
Davidlouis mentioned in china much more popular FR vs the multi xover boxes.
Seems here in the states, the old slogan **Bigger must be better**
And the names
Martin Logan, Sonus Faber, Dali, Wilson, Vandersteen, Thiel.
These names sound exotic and have been etched into the consumers minds as *The Speakers*.
None of these speakers can compete with the FR Midrange experience.
Ok went back to bed,,,laying there the thought occured to me.
The DLVX6 and FE168Sigma
are the 2 drivers I;'m looking for
Not the
Fe208EZ and not the DLVX8.
Why is this?
For my personal preferences in voicing, a W6 is the ideal of both bands, lows and highs and sweeter midrange
Why?
Giving up some bass ushes in more energy for midrange efficiency.
Will eventually order both drivers.
1st up will be the FE168EZ.
later this summer the VX6.
I knew posting here would eventually lead me to the best speaker for my preferences.
Things mention in all my Q's past week have opened up better understanding how these FR 's work.
The DLVX6 and FE168Sigma
are the 2 drivers I;'m looking for
Not the
Fe208EZ and not the DLVX8.
Why is this?
For my personal preferences in voicing, a W6 is the ideal of both bands, lows and highs and sweeter midrange
Why?
Giving up some bass ushes in more energy for midrange efficiency.
Will eventually order both drivers.
1st up will be the FE168EZ.
later this summer the VX6.
I knew posting here would eventually lead me to the best speaker for my preferences.
Things mention in all my Q's past week have opened up better understanding how these FR 's work.
Since you haven't actually heard either of these drive units, it's a trifle premature to make definite statements that
...because the fact is, you don't know, do you. You haven't heard them, you haven't even seen them, and you certainly haven't measured them. QED, you're making it up again.
Sans qualification, this statement is twaddle. What engineering principles of loudspeaker drive unit design are you using for your analysis (which is a precise contradiction of what you were saying only a couple of posts ago)?
...because the fact is, you don't know, do you. You haven't heard them, you haven't even seen them, and you certainly haven't measured them. QED, you're making it up again.
Sans qualification, this statement is twaddle. What engineering principles of loudspeaker drive unit design are you using for your analysis (which is a precise contradiction of what you were saying only a couple of posts ago)?
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