NHB-358
But note on one of the photos, the circuit board is marked NHB-358. I think there is no NHB-358 in the original assortment. Could this mean that the seller enhanced the original?
But note on one of the photos, the circuit board is marked NHB-358. I think there is no NHB-358 in the original assortment. Could this mean that the seller enhanced the original?
It seems that, depending on the vendor, the numbers differ significantly:
Weiliang Breeze Audio A100 Full Replica NHB 108 Amplifier HIFI EXQUIS No Negative Feedback Circuit Hi end Solid Amp WBANHB108-in Amplifier from Consumer Electronics on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
This one is only $586usd
echinical parameters:
Input Impendance: 100K ohms
Line Gain:+26dB (Hifi Exquis)
THD+N:-100dB@no load ; -60dB @8ohm
CrossTalk:- 125 dB (Hifi Exquis)
SNR:115dB (Hifi Exquis)
Frequency Respons: 10Hz ~ 20KHz
Impedance: 2-8 ohms
Max. RMS Power:140W @8ohms 200W @4ohms
Input:RCA x2
Output: Left and right speaker connection
Size: 440x380x160mm (W*D*H) (Hifi Exquis)
Weight： 30kg
Package Gross Weight: 34 KG (Hifi Exquis)
Weiliang Breeze Audio A100 Full Replica NHB 108 Amplifier HIFI EXQUIS No Negative Feedback Circuit Hi end Solid Amp WBANHB108-in Amplifier from Consumer Electronics on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
This one is only $586usd
echinical parameters:
Input Impendance: 100K ohms
Line Gain:+26dB (Hifi Exquis)
THD+N:-100dB@no load ; -60dB @8ohm
CrossTalk:- 125 dB (Hifi Exquis)
SNR:115dB (Hifi Exquis)
Frequency Respons: 10Hz ~ 20KHz
Impedance: 2-8 ohms
Max. RMS Power:140W @8ohms 200W @4ohms
Input:RCA x2
Output: Left and right speaker connection
Size: 440x380x160mm (W*D*H) (Hifi Exquis)
Weight： 30kg
Package Gross Weight: 34 KG (Hifi Exquis)
la hiend is based almost entirely on small talk:
the Chinese are not fools and they understand that the talk makes
everything is possible, but I don't think the Chinese are interested in improving, at least at the industrial level, a 108 or an FM.
improve, if you can, a 108, it's DIY stuff
The description below is a concern if you are thinking of buying it.
4 wheat original SPRAGUE or BC 75V39000UF capacitor filter arrays, (these new capacitors are very expensive, we have not way to put new capacitors, so it's four 2nd hand capacitors)
I wanted to say that there is not too much to trust the Chinese:
they work under the banner of <attack the donkey where the master wants>.
I prefer high-level DIY in general
they work under the banner of <attack the donkey where the master wants>.
I prefer high-level DIY in general
$15000
There is an audiophile, experience, who is selling darTzeel NHB-108 right now, on Audiogon, for $15000.
I didn't ask how old the unit is, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility that it is ~10yrs old.
Now, the question is in what shape his capacitors etc. are. At least, this Chinese vendor tells the truth where it needs to be told?
Then, there is frequency range. If I remember in the original and 6moon review, it was 20Hz to 20kHz 0.1dB or 0.5dB. Here, it is not mentioned. Could be 3dB, we don't know. 6dB? With original schematics and other original parts?
Now we come to the price: $500 vs $15000 used one selling right now. 30 times difference.
So the seller tells us these capacitors are vey expensive new. How much more expensive, we do not know. What is the origin of these used ones, we do not know. But we do not know how old and dis-linearized the $15000 unit is either.
Of course that nobody will ever buy the agon one for even half the advertised price. But morons have hopes, otherwise they would not go through the effort of uploading the pictures and descriptions of their 5th hand units, and paying for that.
I personally think that this model depends very much on the linearity of its frequency range. +-0.1 or 0.3dB max. otherwise, the whole concept of the design goes to the oblivion. I.e. if the linearity is just 3dB, it could be that even the price of $500 is too high.
Remember, there are no feedback loops, that's the whole concept. Many decades ago, I was an analog electronics guy. They gave me a design from some engineer to build a prototype and then ship to production quickly and to export. It was some relay protection, Butterworth or Cherbishev 4th order filter etc. So I am soldering 1% resistors and the relay needs to clap precisely, but as you solder, the damn value fluctuates. Then you measure when it is cold. And again try and error. Only to have the whole batch thrown away as the designer dd not take into account the mechanical delays of the relays. So I think in this darTzeel, there must had been a lot of manual trial and errors across seemingly identical components. This meant a lot of expensive manual work of expensive Switzerland work force. There is no other explanation. I do not think that Swiss are in the business of robbing people. They give you the theory and concept like Goldmund and darTzeel and specifications and they produce according to those specifications.
I think that is the key here. If someone bought this Chinese version, he should measure the linearity with a precise instrument. If it is not within the specification of the original one, it is a no-go. Can DIY make it within the specification e.g. 0.1dB, original circuit?
There is an audiophile, experience, who is selling darTzeel NHB-108 right now, on Audiogon, for $15000.
I didn't ask how old the unit is, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility that it is ~10yrs old.
Now, the question is in what shape his capacitors etc. are. At least, this Chinese vendor tells the truth where it needs to be told?
Then, there is frequency range. If I remember in the original and 6moon review, it was 20Hz to 20kHz 0.1dB or 0.5dB. Here, it is not mentioned. Could be 3dB, we don't know. 6dB? With original schematics and other original parts?
Now we come to the price: $500 vs $15000 used one selling right now. 30 times difference.
So the seller tells us these capacitors are vey expensive new. How much more expensive, we do not know. What is the origin of these used ones, we do not know. But we do not know how old and dis-linearized the $15000 unit is either.
Of course that nobody will ever buy the agon one for even half the advertised price. But morons have hopes, otherwise they would not go through the effort of uploading the pictures and descriptions of their 5th hand units, and paying for that.
I personally think that this model depends very much on the linearity of its frequency range. +-0.1 or 0.3dB max. otherwise, the whole concept of the design goes to the oblivion. I.e. if the linearity is just 3dB, it could be that even the price of $500 is too high.
Remember, there are no feedback loops, that's the whole concept. Many decades ago, I was an analog electronics guy. They gave me a design from some engineer to build a prototype and then ship to production quickly and to export. It was some relay protection, Butterworth or Cherbishev 4th order filter etc. So I am soldering 1% resistors and the relay needs to clap precisely, but as you solder, the damn value fluctuates. Then you measure when it is cold. And again try and error. Only to have the whole batch thrown away as the designer dd not take into account the mechanical delays of the relays. So I think in this darTzeel, there must had been a lot of manual trial and errors across seemingly identical components. This meant a lot of expensive manual work of expensive Switzerland work force. There is no other explanation. I do not think that Swiss are in the business of robbing people. They give you the theory and concept like Goldmund and darTzeel and specifications and they produce according to those specifications.
I think that is the key here. If someone bought this Chinese version, he should measure the linearity with a precise instrument. If it is not within the specification of the original one, it is a no-go. Can DIY make it within the specification e.g. 0.1dB, original circuit?
0.1dB is the goal. I am open for offers. The circuit is known, parts are known. What is unknown is how to join them together and get 0.1dB
Correction. Only thos amps around $400 do not specify the freq. range properly. Here are the two versions that do specify it, one is standard version 140W/ch and the other Delux version 180W/ch
N-007 The newest Study/Copy Dartzeel NHB108 Standard Version power amplifier HIFI AMP NO Negative feedback amp circuit power AMP
PRICE $1332
Product introduction:
1. The amplifier circuit board:
2 x PCB Circuit board,
Panasonic M series electrolytic capacitors,
Vishay PR02 and AC03 high power resistance,
Philips MRS25 1% 0.5w resistance,
Philips silver film capacitor,
WIMA MKS-4 capacitor.
2. You can choose RCA or XLR input.
3. WBT Tin solder
4. Vishay BC Electrolytic capacitor
5. Cardas Internal connecting line
6. Finder Output relay
7. Talema sealed toroidal transformer
8. The connecting plug:
2 x CMC RCA socket,
4 x CMC speakers Cable Wire Connector,
SCHURTER Power input socket
and Gold Plated insurance tube.
Technical parameter:
Input channel: RCA or XLR (freely switch)
Input Impedance: 100K ohms
DC offset: +- 50Mv
Line Gain: +26dB
THD+N: -100dB@no load; -60dB @ 8 ohms
CrossTalk: - 125 dB
SNR: 115dB
Freq. Response: +- 0.014dB @20Hz ~ 20 KHz
Max. RMS Power: 140W @8 ohms, 250W @4 ohms
Size (WxDxH): 440x330x160 (mm)
Weight: 25 KG
N-023 Study/Copy Dartzeel NHB108 Deluxe Version Power Amplifier HIFI NO Negative Feedback Amp Circuit Output Power 180w 8omhs
PRICE $3024
Product introduction:
1. The amplifier circuit board:
2 x PCB Circuit board,
Panasonic M series electrolytic capacitors,
Vishay PR02 and AC03 high power resistance,
Philips MRS25 1% 0.5w resistance,
Philips silver film capacitor,
WIMA MKS-4 capacitor.
2. You can choose RCA or XLR input.
3. SCNP Neutral point stability module.
4. NO Negative feedback amplifier circuit class AB output
5. Completely independent of the left and right channels
6. Very high channel degree of separation and SNR
7. Two pieces of Talema 500va 40v toroidal transformer
8. Twelve pieces of Vishay BC 101 63v 22000uF electrolytic capacitor
9. The connecting plug:
2 x WBT RCA socket,
4 x WBT speakers Cable Wire Connector,
SCHURTER Power input socket and Gold Plated insurance tube.
Technical parameter:
Output power: 180w @8ohms, 300w @4ohms
Input Impedance: 100K ohms
DC offset: +- 50Mv
Line Gain: +26dB
THD+N: -105dB@no load, -65dB @ 8 ohms
CrossTalk: - 128 dB
SNR: 115dB
Freq. Response: +- 0.012dB @20Hz ~ 20 KHz
Max. RMS Power: 180W @ 8 ohms, 300W @ 4 ohms
Size (WxDxH): 460x380x170 (mm)
Weight: 36 KG
The original story
"It was purty—in fact, the amp's fit'n'finish rivaled that of any audio component I had ever seen. This was a DIY project?
Well, Hervé Delétraz is Swiss. And an engineer. And, well, Swiss.
I sat down and listened. And marveled. And lusted.
"You have got to manufacture this amplifier!" I blurted.
"I would like to," said Hervé, "but it will be quite expensive. I used to think that stereo cost so much that I would be better off making it myself. But when you make only one, it really gets expensive—and I don't think it gets much better if you make 50, either."
"Then you're going to need to make a whole lot of these, because people have got to hear what this amp can do."
"I'd like that," Hervé said.
Delétraz has managed to keep the price more or less stable—in Swiss francs. US dollars is another story. The greenback's precipitous dive has driven the amplifier's Stateside price steadily up. It currently hovers just below $18,200.
The darTZeel NHB-108 Model One amplifier (NHB stands for "Never Heard Before") is based, Delétraz says, on the triple principles of simplicity, purity, and reliability. That means the 108 employs open-loop input and output stages with no global negative feedback. Nor does it use relay switches or fuses in the signal path. It employs a scant six transistors per polarity side from input to output, and only a single pair of bipolar output transistors per channel. The NHB-108's output is biased to produce about 20W in class-A, and it runs rather warm—as in Careful around that heatsink, buddy!
Achieving simplicity takes a lot of hard work, however, and the NHB-108 is definitely a piece of work. The CNC-routed aluminum casework includes inner and outer compartments: the inner compartment, beneath the case's "outer interior," contains much of the wiring; the outer compartment contains the massive power supply and the output devices, which are attached to the heatsinks. The storage capacitors are huge honkin' things, and the recursive, gold-plated buses that connect them to the circuit look like Victorian drafting tools—or maybe I mean Edwardian. You know, they scream elegance.
Nothing went into the NHB-108 casually. The case components are damped and decoupled from one another by absorptive bumpers, and the placements of all active devices were the subjects of constant experimentation by Delétraz. All of the 108's components are of extremely high quality. The binding posts are WBT, for example, but many others, such as the BNCs and those golden bus bars, look bespoke.
Specifications
Description: Solid-state power amplifier.
Inputs: unbalanced voltage-mode (RCA), unbalanced "Zeel" (BNC), balanced (XLR).
Output power: 100W RMS into 8 ohms (20dBW), 160W RMS into 4 ohms (19dBW).
Voltage gain: 26dB into 8 ohms.
Input impedance: >100k ohms, 5Hz–200kHz (RCA); 50 ohms ("Zeel").
Output impedance: <0.33 ohm, 20Hz–20kHz.
Frequency response: 10Hz–100kHz, +0/–0.5dB.
THD: <1%, 7Hz–77kHz.
Signal/Noise Ratio: >105dB(A) ref. rated power.
Dimensions: 17.25" (440mm) W by 6.75" (170mm) H by 13.25" (335mm) D. Weight: 65 lbs (30kg).
Serial number of unit reviewed: TZ-UA1081.004.
Price: $18,181.
So it seems the original was 100W/ch and its frequency response was 10 - 100kHz +-0.5dB with THD < 1% across the frequency range. This is totally different amplifier than those clones and 5 times wider frequency range.
Not sure why they call those clones clones?!
N-007 The newest Study/Copy Dartzeel NHB108 Standard Version power amplifier HIFI AMP NO Negative feedback amp circuit power AMP
PRICE $1332
Product introduction:
1. The amplifier circuit board:
2 x PCB Circuit board,
Panasonic M series electrolytic capacitors,
Vishay PR02 and AC03 high power resistance,
Philips MRS25 1% 0.5w resistance,
Philips silver film capacitor,
WIMA MKS-4 capacitor.
2. You can choose RCA or XLR input.
3. WBT Tin solder
4. Vishay BC Electrolytic capacitor
5. Cardas Internal connecting line
6. Finder Output relay
7. Talema sealed toroidal transformer
8. The connecting plug:
2 x CMC RCA socket,
4 x CMC speakers Cable Wire Connector,
SCHURTER Power input socket
and Gold Plated insurance tube.
Technical parameter:
Input channel: RCA or XLR (freely switch)
Input Impedance: 100K ohms
DC offset: +- 50Mv
Line Gain: +26dB
THD+N: -100dB@no load; -60dB @ 8 ohms
CrossTalk: - 125 dB
SNR: 115dB
Freq. Response: +- 0.014dB @20Hz ~ 20 KHz
Max. RMS Power: 140W @8 ohms, 250W @4 ohms
Size (WxDxH): 440x330x160 (mm)
Weight: 25 KG
N-023 Study/Copy Dartzeel NHB108 Deluxe Version Power Amplifier HIFI NO Negative Feedback Amp Circuit Output Power 180w 8omhs
PRICE $3024
Product introduction:
1. The amplifier circuit board:
2 x PCB Circuit board,
Panasonic M series electrolytic capacitors,
Vishay PR02 and AC03 high power resistance,
Philips MRS25 1% 0.5w resistance,
Philips silver film capacitor,
WIMA MKS-4 capacitor.
2. You can choose RCA or XLR input.
3. SCNP Neutral point stability module.
4. NO Negative feedback amplifier circuit class AB output
5. Completely independent of the left and right channels
6. Very high channel degree of separation and SNR
7. Two pieces of Talema 500va 40v toroidal transformer
8. Twelve pieces of Vishay BC 101 63v 22000uF electrolytic capacitor
9. The connecting plug:
2 x WBT RCA socket,
4 x WBT speakers Cable Wire Connector,
SCHURTER Power input socket and Gold Plated insurance tube.
Technical parameter:
Output power: 180w @8ohms, 300w @4ohms
Input Impedance: 100K ohms
DC offset: +- 50Mv
Line Gain: +26dB
THD+N: -105dB@no load, -65dB @ 8 ohms
CrossTalk: - 128 dB
SNR: 115dB
Freq. Response: +- 0.012dB @20Hz ~ 20 KHz
Max. RMS Power: 180W @ 8 ohms, 300W @ 4 ohms
Size (WxDxH): 460x380x170 (mm)
Weight: 36 KG
The original story
"It was purty—in fact, the amp's fit'n'finish rivaled that of any audio component I had ever seen. This was a DIY project?
Well, Hervé Delétraz is Swiss. And an engineer. And, well, Swiss.
I sat down and listened. And marveled. And lusted.
"You have got to manufacture this amplifier!" I blurted.
"I would like to," said Hervé, "but it will be quite expensive. I used to think that stereo cost so much that I would be better off making it myself. But when you make only one, it really gets expensive—and I don't think it gets much better if you make 50, either."
"Then you're going to need to make a whole lot of these, because people have got to hear what this amp can do."
"I'd like that," Hervé said.
Delétraz has managed to keep the price more or less stable—in Swiss francs. US dollars is another story. The greenback's precipitous dive has driven the amplifier's Stateside price steadily up. It currently hovers just below $18,200.
The darTZeel NHB-108 Model One amplifier (NHB stands for "Never Heard Before") is based, Delétraz says, on the triple principles of simplicity, purity, and reliability. That means the 108 employs open-loop input and output stages with no global negative feedback. Nor does it use relay switches or fuses in the signal path. It employs a scant six transistors per polarity side from input to output, and only a single pair of bipolar output transistors per channel. The NHB-108's output is biased to produce about 20W in class-A, and it runs rather warm—as in Careful around that heatsink, buddy!
Achieving simplicity takes a lot of hard work, however, and the NHB-108 is definitely a piece of work. The CNC-routed aluminum casework includes inner and outer compartments: the inner compartment, beneath the case's "outer interior," contains much of the wiring; the outer compartment contains the massive power supply and the output devices, which are attached to the heatsinks. The storage capacitors are huge honkin' things, and the recursive, gold-plated buses that connect them to the circuit look like Victorian drafting tools—or maybe I mean Edwardian. You know, they scream elegance.
Nothing went into the NHB-108 casually. The case components are damped and decoupled from one another by absorptive bumpers, and the placements of all active devices were the subjects of constant experimentation by Delétraz. All of the 108's components are of extremely high quality. The binding posts are WBT, for example, but many others, such as the BNCs and those golden bus bars, look bespoke.
Specifications
Description: Solid-state power amplifier.
Inputs: unbalanced voltage-mode (RCA), unbalanced "Zeel" (BNC), balanced (XLR).
Output power: 100W RMS into 8 ohms (20dBW), 160W RMS into 4 ohms (19dBW).
Voltage gain: 26dB into 8 ohms.
Input impedance: >100k ohms, 5Hz–200kHz (RCA); 50 ohms ("Zeel").
Output impedance: <0.33 ohm, 20Hz–20kHz.
Frequency response: 10Hz–100kHz, +0/–0.5dB.
THD: <1%, 7Hz–77kHz.
Signal/Noise Ratio: >105dB(A) ref. rated power.
Dimensions: 17.25" (440mm) W by 6.75" (170mm) H by 13.25" (335mm) D. Weight: 65 lbs (30kg).
Serial number of unit reviewed: TZ-UA1081.004.
Price: $18,181.
So it seems the original was 100W/ch and its frequency response was 10 - 100kHz +-0.5dB with THD < 1% across the frequency range. This is totally different amplifier than those clones and 5 times wider frequency range.
Not sure why they call those clones clones?!
If one wants dartzeel, the key thing is, as per 6moons
The NHB-108 is rated at 160 watts into four ohms; 100 watts into 8 or 2 ohms. The wide bandwidth design covers 1Hz to 1Mhz +0/-6dB with 1% THD and -- according to darTZeel most importantly -- zero temporal distortion.
The NHB-108 is rated at 160 watts into four ohms; 100 watts into 8 or 2 ohms. The wide bandwidth design covers 1Hz to 1Mhz +0/-6dB with 1% THD and -- according to darTZeel most importantly -- zero temporal distortion.
Likewise, darTZeel suggests that Intermodulation Distortion (IMD as the combining of frequencies and their harmonics) results in a beating tremolo that produces warming, cooling or drying artifacts depending on the combination. Hervé believes that IMD, like THD, is not musically detrimental and therefore benign at low levels. If THD and IMD are not culprits for poor sound according to this view, what is? Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM). It "...occurs when the negative feedback (NFB) loop is in a state of overflow, something that arises more often than you might think since the NFB correction always is applied after the phenomenon to be corrected appears. During these very short intervals, the amplifier can produce more than 100% THD and/or IMD." darTZeel prefers to call it Temporal Distortion. This insidious audible distortion screws up amplified sound and is what the NHB-108 seeks to eliminate. By applying several small local negative feedback loops instead of a global loop and extending frequency response to reduce phase shifts, Temporal Distortion (TD) is claimed to have been eliminated.
That's great in theory but each solution seems contradictory - high bandwidth requires global feedback; low feedback equals poor frequency response. During his 20-year design period, Hervé feels he pulled it off. The 108 employs zero global feedback and combines it with frequency response to 1MHz. To accomplish this, darTZeel chose bipolar transistors -- ultra linear and fast -- for a straightforward signal path: "In the NHB-108 model one, the audio signal travels through only 6 transistors from input to output, maintaining low THD and IMD level. Without any global NFB, the output stage operates in a fully open loop! The slowest transistors used have a bandwidth of more than 30MHz, much higher than any Mosfet. This extreme intrinsic speed allows total phase respect across the whole audio range without any static or dynamic deformation. In brief, no Temporal Distortion."
That's great in theory but each solution seems contradictory - high bandwidth requires global feedback; low feedback equals poor frequency response. During his 20-year design period, Hervé feels he pulled it off. The 108 employs zero global feedback and combines it with frequency response to 1MHz. To accomplish this, darTZeel chose bipolar transistors -- ultra linear and fast -- for a straightforward signal path: "In the NHB-108 model one, the audio signal travels through only 6 transistors from input to output, maintaining low THD and IMD level. Without any global NFB, the output stage operates in a fully open loop! The slowest transistors used have a bandwidth of more than 30MHz, much higher than any Mosfet. This extreme intrinsic speed allows total phase respect across the whole audio range without any static or dynamic deformation. In brief, no Temporal Distortion."
basically, it is Swiss school, dartzeel to 1MHz and goldmund to 3MHz. Clones abandoned this approach altogether avoiding oscillation and other problems. probably they were thinking human ear cannot hear above 20kHz so they focused on 20kHz and completely missed the point of this design.
How do you know he tells he truth about anything? Did you buy one?
he is telling the truth
the truth is that his product, Deluxe version 160W/ch and price $3200 is a far cry from the $18000 original. He is telling us that clone's bandwidth is only 20kHz while the original is 1MHz as measured by Stereophile
the truth is that his product, Deluxe version 160W/ch and price $3200 is a far cry from the $18000 original. He is telling us that clone's bandwidth is only 20kHz while the original is 1MHz as measured by Stereophile