Another issue I noticed with the $1700 Transcendent kits is that in order to get 6 watts per side, you need 8 300B's. So the tubes will cost as much or more than the kit.
Not in person but have looked at the various build pictures, your included. A bit frightening which is what got me thinking about splitting the channels into two chassis. The 3U mini-Dissipante seems about the right size in that ACA kind of way. Initial sq cm calculations show that each side is more than enough dissipation for a single device.
In his book he has a chapter dedicated to a single ended OTL version. Not sure you want to go thru the effort of building from a schematic but would offer both OTL and Single Ended topologies. I have never heard an OTL tube amp but everything I've ever read points to dead quiet and very responsive. He's got a forum that I found helpful many moons ago. No idea what state it is in now. Transcendent Sound Forum
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Alan,
Browsing through the thread noticed that you had these powered with SOTA Purifi amps (the cat's meow in Class D 🙂) - didn't find those a good match?
I am guessing that you prefer the ACA and your Dynaco clone more with these particular speakers, and hence you are looking for something similar?
I built the Tubelab SE 300B - found it very detailed and enjoyable, but it lacked oomph with my speakers which have 82-83 dB sensitivity.
Browsing through the thread noticed that you had these powered with SOTA Purifi amps (the cat's meow in Class D 🙂) - didn't find those a good match?
I am guessing that you prefer the ACA and your Dynaco clone more with these particular speakers, and hence you are looking for something similar?
I built the Tubelab SE 300B - found it very detailed and enjoyable, but it lacked oomph with my speakers which have 82-83 dB sensitivity.
Zman01: I am not looking for a SET/OTL amp for the Halcyons. As you pointed out, if the ACA won’t push them, then these fancy tube types probably won’t either. I also have some Zu and Klipsch speakers, which are in the 90s. Yes the Purifi works great with the Halcyons. No complaints. Lots of power. Strange, I’m not enough of an audiophile to notice that the Purifi is supposedly “dry” or “analytical” and lacking that wonderfully rich 2nd harmonic. I’ve tried the Pass NuTube preamp, as well as an OTL tube preamp from Schiit - the Valhalla2. Frankly, i can’t place a value judgment on which is better or whether either of them are better than the Purifi by itself. They sound a little different, but I can’t say I prefer one over the other. I can say that the Aleph J sounds better than any other amp I have, but not with the Halcyons, for some reason. I wonder how your Tunelab SE 300B would sound with some high efficiency speakers like Tekton or Zu. [I haven’t found Klipsch, at least RP600M and KLF-30, to be nearly as efficient as they claim. My guess, based on other speakers I have had in my room, is that they are hovering somewhere around 90, whereas the Zu is closer to 100.]
6sX7: Thanks for the book idea. I’ll see if I can find it. And the fact that Stereophile rated something of his is good. He says these Pinnacle 300Bs are his best amps ever. Maybe they are. I’d love to find out. But 8 300Bs? Plus a few spares. Ouch!! Each 300B contributes a whopping 1.5 watts. Wonder whether they all need to be matched.
6sX7: Thanks for the book idea. I’ll see if I can find it. And the fact that Stereophile rated something of his is good. He says these Pinnacle 300Bs are his best amps ever. Maybe they are. I’d love to find out. But 8 300Bs? Plus a few spares. Ouch!! Each 300B contributes a whopping 1.5 watts. Wonder whether they all need to be matched.
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Alan,
Looks like you have tried and tested quite a few combinations already. I was about to ask if you would be interested to look up the Pass B1 Nututbe, but looks like you have already tried that one too. 🙂
The TSE amp has been long put out of commission as I lost interest in tubes; I no longer listen to single wide-band drivers (aka full-range), and my other speakers are all relatively lower efficiency. Depending on B+, bias and output transformer value you will probably have 6-8 watts of output with a single ended 300B amplifier.
You can ask around in the Tubelab forum regarding if anyone has experience with Zu or Tekton speakers - they look like a friendly lot. 🙂
Looks like you have tried and tested quite a few combinations already. I was about to ask if you would be interested to look up the Pass B1 Nututbe, but looks like you have already tried that one too. 🙂
The TSE amp has been long put out of commission as I lost interest in tubes; I no longer listen to single wide-band drivers (aka full-range), and my other speakers are all relatively lower efficiency. Depending on B+, bias and output transformer value you will probably have 6-8 watts of output with a single ended 300B amplifier.
You can ask around in the Tubelab forum regarding if anyone has experience with Zu or Tekton speakers - they look like a friendly lot. 🙂
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The number of preamps with output transformers is vanishingly small.
2 products at very different ends of the spectra. Valhalla is a $350 headphone amplifier (primarily).
dave
OTLs are a bit weird. Rosenblitz is trying to get these to fit into a world where the norm is 8 ohms nominal, but an OTL tends to be happier with higher impredance loudspeakers.
The value equation changes significantly if your loudspeakers Are nomnal 16 ohms or higher.
dave
Dave, Sorry for long post. I have several (compound) questions for you.
I’m not sure what you’re saying about the Purifi and the Valhalla 2. As background, I tried the Valhalla 2 and the Pass B1 Nutube kit because I wanted an inexpensive way to experiment with adding some “tube sound” to the supposedly dry and clinical Purifi with the Halcyons.
I got the idea for the Valhalla 2 as a tube preamp from Doctorjohn CheapTubeAudio, who said, in bold:
“I am also certain, for the very modest outlay of the Valhalla 2, it can go head-to-head with many Preamps many times its cost.” He compares it to an LTA MicroZotl, which is very high praise indeed, from what I know.
Doctorjohn Cheaptubeaudio: Audio Reviews and More: Schiit Valhalla 2 as Preamp Tube Rolling 6DJ8 6CG7 7119 Tube Adaptor
1. Would your comment about the Valhalla 2 being a “$350 headphone amplifier” extend to the $300 Pass Nutube B1 kit that I also tried? To my unsophisticated ears the result was the same.
BTW, I forgot to mention an interest in SET/OTL for the Frugelhorn XLs, which continue to amaze me. A couple questions on those;
2. What is the nominal impedance of them with Alpair 10-P?
3. Is there any advantage (or possibility) to upgrading to Alpair 11-MS? For the FrugelHorn XL or the Halcyons?
Also, you mentioned speakers with nominal 16 ohms impedance.
4. What are examples of speakers like that? Do you have a recommended SET/OTL amp/speaker combination or combination guidelines that make sense to you?
5. Finally, Do you have any suggestions for good amp/preamp pairing with the Halcyons that we haven’t tried yet? Your overall expertise and intimate knowledge of the Alpair 10-P puts you in a unique position to have some good ideas.
I’m not sure what you’re saying about the Purifi and the Valhalla 2. As background, I tried the Valhalla 2 and the Pass B1 Nutube kit because I wanted an inexpensive way to experiment with adding some “tube sound” to the supposedly dry and clinical Purifi with the Halcyons.
I got the idea for the Valhalla 2 as a tube preamp from Doctorjohn CheapTubeAudio, who said, in bold:
“I am also certain, for the very modest outlay of the Valhalla 2, it can go head-to-head with many Preamps many times its cost.” He compares it to an LTA MicroZotl, which is very high praise indeed, from what I know.
Doctorjohn Cheaptubeaudio: Audio Reviews and More: Schiit Valhalla 2 as Preamp Tube Rolling 6DJ8 6CG7 7119 Tube Adaptor
1. Would your comment about the Valhalla 2 being a “$350 headphone amplifier” extend to the $300 Pass Nutube B1 kit that I also tried? To my unsophisticated ears the result was the same.
BTW, I forgot to mention an interest in SET/OTL for the Frugelhorn XLs, which continue to amaze me. A couple questions on those;
2. What is the nominal impedance of them with Alpair 10-P?
3. Is there any advantage (or possibility) to upgrading to Alpair 11-MS? For the FrugelHorn XL or the Halcyons?
Also, you mentioned speakers with nominal 16 ohms impedance.
4. What are examples of speakers like that? Do you have a recommended SET/OTL amp/speaker combination or combination guidelines that make sense to you?
5. Finally, Do you have any suggestions for good amp/preamp pairing with the Halcyons that we haven’t tried yet? Your overall expertise and intimate knowledge of the Alpair 10-P puts you in a unique position to have some good ideas.
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Finally put the Halcyons back downstairs with the VTA ST-120. No preamp. I guess the VTA tubiness is enough. I couldn’t hear an improvement with either the Valhalla 2 or the Pass Korg B1 preamp. Ideas/suggestions welcome. Not that I’m missing anything, but the quest never seems to end. I need an AA meeting (Audioholics Anonymous). Hi, my name is Alan. I’m a friend of Nelson. And I am an audioholic. I am turning my addiction over to a Higher Power, probably Class D.
The B1 is simplier. The Schitt stuff is designed to work well and cost little. It is generally, IMO, good value.
The best one is the one that gives you the most satisfaction. Having a tube in it is nothing to be overlly excited about, unless you are looking for what is often described as a tubey sound, then you are lookign for a tube circuit that purposely does not try to be as good as it can be. The triode is likely the most linear amplification device we have invented yet (ignoring hard to find SITs/VFETs), and done well ca be superb, but the goal of both good tube stuff and good SS stuff is to not sound, to pass as much of the information it gets to the power amplifier, B1 is a buffer, its sole purpose is switching, volume, and to ensure there is enuff grunt to drive the amplifier. Valhalla is an amplifier designed to drive headphones. It is well enuff done that it willalso drive a high impedance load as a preamp. It has some gain.
2 devices of similar cost, but different purposes, and differen attitude. The B1 does sound a bit better than the Schitt Freya+ in its “B1 mode”. At least until it broke, i can’t figure out how to open it up, the way it broke, and the way it behaves suggest some obscure part exploded.
8 ohms nominal.
That suggests that you want to look at starting fresh.
Halcyon is well sorted, changes would likely degrade performance. Further you have one of the last pair of A10PeN, you aren’y getting any A11mSeN (unless you get lucky or do it yourself). The treatment gives the EnABLed driver advantages the stock A11ms will not have. And th evoivcing of the 2 drivers is quite different.
The mono suspension should give it an edge midTop over most drivers with a spider when used as a midTweeter. But i se eno reason to use A11ms when you can use A7ms (or even A5.2/3), for better midTop at the sacrifice of absolute levels possible.
Getting something like the 6-24 (or LXmini) XO or something like miniDSP (first sounds better, second much more flexible). If you are developing a loudspeaker getting a miniDSP soley for the purpose of figuring out how to set up the analog XO.
Few and ar between, The special edition FE103SOL could be had in 16 ohms, the re is a 16 ohm version of the Faital Pro 3FR, but usually we talk multiple drivers. Not an issue in the bass, as frquency goes up one has to del with 2 drivers covering th esam efrequencies from 2 different places (or live with it — less of an issue as listening distance increases).
I have done quite a bit of thot experiments on loudspeakers that have high impedance. Often high Rout aplifiers are alos happier with higher impedance loads.
haven’t tried yet? Your overall expertise and intimate knowledge of the Alpair 10-P puts you in a unique position to have some good ideas.
I am not familiar with how the bass helpers and XO directly affect the Halcyon but fairly flat impedance means that almost any good amplifier will work with them as long as it can driver the bass drivers sufficiently well.
Have we got an XA-25 clone yet, with those new high power output devices? Some grunt and much of the finesse and elegance of the simplier SE Firstwatt amps. Same nominal 25 w as most of the Firstwatts, but is really grunty into lower impedance loads. Schitt Aegir is really interesting, and the wealth of designs we will see come from Round 3 & Round 4 of the VFET project promise.
There are lots of amps i’d like to hear, M2, MoFo, the Scade SE amp Nelson sketched at BAF one year.
Each will likely have its own flavour. Something not experienced by those who use higish power CLass AB or Class D amplifiers where quantity often trumps quality, and tend towards a similar, bleached, stark sonics, scrubbed clean of the really small stuff (a generalization, i don't have sufficient experienceto say more).
Preamps, that is a whole different thing. I am still actively looking for a real gem, the MooseFET is pretty good thou. The Fornaco is quite good but needs CCSs installed.
Geneally the fewer devices in the signal path the better, but the power supply is very important. A really good preap migt be mostly power supply. A single 12B4 , if you can find one that is not noisy always intrigued me.
dave
ZMAN: Are you building Elsinores and Halcyons? I have a pair of very used Elsinores (Mk 3) that I am planning to upgrade to Mk 6. Joe made some crossovers for me, and he sent the waveguide adapter. Now all I need is a couple hundred hours to put it all together.
alanhuth, I have been considering the Elsinores. I assume you like them because you are upgrading them.
Have you had a chance to compare them to anything else?
Have you had a chance to compare them to anything else?
Hi Mike,
I got my Mk3s in worn condition a couple of years ago. I didn’t pay very much but the cabinets are solid. I did not want to build cabinets from scratch. I was told that there are no changes to the cabinet from Mk3 to Mk6, other than the baffle change from rectangular to circular cutout for the tweeter/waveguide. They are sitting in a corner now waiting for attention. I just received the crossovers. Next step is to order the 8 drivers, which I haven’t done due to financial priorities. Now I believe Joe is going to offer a board for the cross-overs, which should make life easier for some.
When I briefly had the Mk3s running, I compared them to 20-year-old Klipsch KLF-30’s. The KLFs are in good shape, updated with Crites titanium tweeter, squawker, and crossover. They are also glued up tight so they sound pretty good. I’m told they sound like a good pair of Heritage speakers, somewhere in the neighborhood of Forte or Cornwall. I would give the edge in clarity and smoothness to the Mk3s, but the KLFs have that “you are there” horn thing going with dynamics and slam. I’m hoping that the Mk6, once completed, will knock the KLFs out, but there is no substitute for cubic inches. Each KLF has 2 12” woofers, hopefully soon to be upgraded to Ciare, which are reported to be tighter and have more impact than the stock drivers. So, it will be interesting. I can’t wait for the finances to improve to the point that I can get both pairs running and do a real comparison.
Going by memory only, the Halcyon has the best “audiophile” sound of the three. More soundstage, imaging, etc. My only complaint is that I haven’t dialed in the bass yet. The room isn’t ideal so I don’t know how close I can get, but more experimentation is needed with stuffing and room placement.
I got my Mk3s in worn condition a couple of years ago. I didn’t pay very much but the cabinets are solid. I did not want to build cabinets from scratch. I was told that there are no changes to the cabinet from Mk3 to Mk6, other than the baffle change from rectangular to circular cutout for the tweeter/waveguide. They are sitting in a corner now waiting for attention. I just received the crossovers. Next step is to order the 8 drivers, which I haven’t done due to financial priorities. Now I believe Joe is going to offer a board for the cross-overs, which should make life easier for some.
When I briefly had the Mk3s running, I compared them to 20-year-old Klipsch KLF-30’s. The KLFs are in good shape, updated with Crites titanium tweeter, squawker, and crossover. They are also glued up tight so they sound pretty good. I’m told they sound like a good pair of Heritage speakers, somewhere in the neighborhood of Forte or Cornwall. I would give the edge in clarity and smoothness to the Mk3s, but the KLFs have that “you are there” horn thing going with dynamics and slam. I’m hoping that the Mk6, once completed, will knock the KLFs out, but there is no substitute for cubic inches. Each KLF has 2 12” woofers, hopefully soon to be upgraded to Ciare, which are reported to be tighter and have more impact than the stock drivers. So, it will be interesting. I can’t wait for the finances to improve to the point that I can get both pairs running and do a real comparison.
Going by memory only, the Halcyon has the best “audiophile” sound of the three. More soundstage, imaging, etc. My only complaint is that I haven’t dialed in the bass yet. The room isn’t ideal so I don’t know how close I can get, but more experimentation is needed with stuffing and room placement.
Sounds like it was a good find on the Mk3 cabs. I saw Joe's post regarding the crossover boards. I think he mentioned that his intention in purchasing them wasn't to sell the boards by themselves.
I had KLF 10's, just sold a pair of Forte I's, I have a pair of Forte II's and LaScalas which I am using ALK's universal crossovers on. My favorite thing about Klipsch is that it is easy to make them dissapear. They don't seem to be as particular to placement.
I hope to hear your thoughts about the MK6 when you are able to complete them.
I had KLF 10's, just sold a pair of Forte I's, I have a pair of Forte II's and LaScalas which I am using ALK's universal crossovers on. My favorite thing about Klipsch is that it is easy to make them dissapear. They don't seem to be as particular to placement.
I hope to hear your thoughts about the MK6 when you are able to complete them.
Hi Alan,
Sorry for the late response.
I am planning to build the Elsinores as I have all the parts for the speaker. The Halcyons are not on the build roadmap, but I like the concept and design.
The Elsinore MK3 design uses the Peerless 6.5" Nomex Cone HDS woofer, and that has a different sized basket and frame vs the SBA driver used in the MK6 version. The last iteration using the new waveguide and the Peerless HDS woofer is the Elsinore MK5. So, if you intend to keep the baffle and only modify the part for the waveguide, you will have to go for the drivers that will fit in that baffle, and the XO design that supports those drivers.
If you are redoing the entire front baffle, then you can have them made for the latest supported drivers and use the new waveguide and XO.
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Hi Zman,
I’m planning to take the old drivers off and see if the baffle can be modified for the new drivers. If not, then I guess it’s a whole new baffle. Joe seemed to think it could be done.
He also suggested that I get 10 of the new drivers as the volume discount makes it silly to get just 8. I haven’t looked into that yet, but I may have a couple of those drivers extra for a Hamlet or for someone else who might like a pair. Not sure where else they are used.
I’m planning to take the old drivers off and see if the baffle can be modified for the new drivers. If not, then I guess it’s a whole new baffle. Joe seemed to think it could be done.
He also suggested that I get 10 of the new drivers as the volume discount makes it silly to get just 8. I haven’t looked into that yet, but I may have a couple of those drivers extra for a Hamlet or for someone else who might like a pair. Not sure where else they are used.
Alan,
Considering the dimensions of the driver frames and cut-outs, it looks like with some creativity the old baffle can be modified to work with the new drivers. No idea about the waveguide though.
You good with a plunge router?
You have a picture of the Elsinore MK3s you got?
Considering the dimensions of the driver frames and cut-outs, it looks like with some creativity the old baffle can be modified to work with the new drivers. No idea about the waveguide though.
You good with a plunge router?
You have a picture of the Elsinore MK3s you got?
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If the frames are larger, you could make a full sized baffle
template and just cut the waveguide and everything else at once. It would also be a good way to test fit the drivers. If you are smaller on the friver frames, you could use thin wood or black weather stripping to take up the difference. Depends on how far off things are.
The drivers are spaced the same, right?
template and just cut the waveguide and everything else at once. It would also be a good way to test fit the drivers. If you are smaller on the friver frames, you could use thin wood or black weather stripping to take up the difference. Depends on how far off things are.
The drivers are spaced the same, right?
Put some filler in the Halcyons
I don’t know what took me so long, but I finally got around to stuffing the Halcyons with extra polyfill. When 6sX7 said he put 3.5 lbs into each one, I thought he was nuts, but turns out it was me. I don’t think I have quite that much in (yet) but I ended up putting a whole pound more into each one. Wow.
I was expecting a trade-off of some sort, but no, it was all positive. Got rid of boominess but the bass seems stronger if anything. Complete win-win. Highly recommended.
I don’t know what took me so long, but I finally got around to stuffing the Halcyons with extra polyfill. When 6sX7 said he put 3.5 lbs into each one, I thought he was nuts, but turns out it was me. I don’t think I have quite that much in (yet) but I ended up putting a whole pound more into each one. Wow.
I was expecting a trade-off of some sort, but no, it was all positive. Got rid of boominess but the bass seems stronger if anything. Complete win-win. Highly recommended.
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