Coaxial Questions

[pelanj]

See post #16 for a link with measurements of my Beta12CX project And I know Freddi used 10CX. I think the 10CX (Beta or maybe Gamma?was used in some highly regarded HiFi speaker (made in Austria I think, cannot remember the name).

Today, I would go for another driver than the D210Ti, some with a plastic membrane ot Ti/Mylar combination, since that is what I prefer now.

 

[celef]

Yes the 10” beta coax where used with apt-50 in some of wlm models, wlm seems to be a very different brand today though

 

[fabricadetabaco]

I’ve mentioned my experience with the betas a few times in this thread and linked to some relevant threads for more details (find post 10). The betas are good for the money but have limitations.

Beta 12 has a dark sound to it, pleasing but lack a a little detail. Bass is good with a large cabinet (I have tried 40l and 60l, later with best results) but powerhandling/Xmas may not be the best. It also has a cone breakup in the middle of the recommend crossover point which needs extra attention, therefore it’s important to select the right HF driver; I have best result with PSD2002. I prefer the Celestion FTX over it.

Beta 10 is a bit different. Very different really. It has a cleared mid and doesn’t sound as dark. Less cone break up and more flexible on HF drivers and crossover point. At loud levels it kinda lose bass though and sounds like thin paper, really recommend a sub with it. It could also be my cabinet not being optimal.

The above is based on using stock crossover the 2,5kHz Eminence especially made for these drivers. With other crossovers or DSP I’m sure better results can be made. No measurements are done all my observations are by ear only and in a rather small room using electronic music mostly. So trust it based on that.

Oh and the soft steel frame thing

 

[pelanj]

Found it: 6moons audio reviews: WLM Diva Monitor with Diva Control

And regarding the coaxials, I really dig the Beyma 12XA30 - the driver is built in, but I got them almost unused second hand and never regretted the purchase. If only I could find a good deal on the driver it uses - CP755Ti - I would have some use for it The only disadvantage of the Beyma speakers in general is their higher price, but any from Beyma I had were just top notch. Including the Liberty 8 for paraflex kick bin duties.

 

[unaHm]

Firstly, thanks everyone for responding, and I apologise for forgetting that the Betas had already been discussed. There had been so much talk on the Vortex kits, the Celestions and the Eminience Kappalites that the new information had pushed the old information out (I think there's a meme of homer simpson experiencing the same thing somewhere...)

See post #16 for a link with measurements of my Beta12CX project And I know Freddi used 10CX. I think the 10CX (Beta or maybe Gamma?was used in some highly regarded HiFi speaker (made in Austria I think, cannot remember the name).

Today, I would go for another driver than the D210Ti, some with a plastic membrane ot Ti/Mylar combination, since that is what I prefer now.

Thanks pelanj, that's good to know. I don't have much first-hand experience with HF compression drivers outside of the ones I have here. Given that membrane material combination, what would you recommend?

Beta 12 has a dark sound to it, pleasing but lack a a little detail. Bass is good with a large cabinet (I have tried 40l and 60l, later with best results) but powerhandling/Xmas may not be the best. It also has a cone breakup in the middle of the recommend crossover point which needs extra attention, therefore it’s important to select the right HF driver; I have best result with PSD2002. I prefer the Celestion FTX over it.

Beta 10 is a bit different. Very different really. It has a cleared mid and doesn’t sound as dark. Less cone break up and more flexible on HF drivers and crossover point. At loud levels it kinda lose bass though and sounds like thin paper, really recommend a sub with it. It could also be my cabinet not being optimal.

The above is based on using stock crossover the 2,5kHz Eminence especially made for these drivers. With other crossovers or DSP I’m sure better results can be made. No measurements are done all my observations are by ear only and in a rather small room using electronic music mostly. So trust it based on that.

Oh and the soft steel frame thing

Thanks for re-iterating your findings! It's interesting that you found the Beta10CX to be more useful than the 12. Hmm. I have subs, so I could certainly make use of the 10 - the Beta 10s seem to be used in a fair amount of projects, so they must have hit a particular sweet spot in their design.

I'm all for using the stock crossovers, so I appreciate that you've done your tests with those. DSP is fun, but sometimes you just want a working system

I haven't seen that many demos of the Beta10cx, though I did find a couple of videos on YouTube:

Eminence 10" coaxial monitors from Jerry McNutt & Kyle Heightchew_6 - YouTube

I'm not sure if it's room gain, but the driver and the cabinet seem to make them sound boomy. Maybe they were going for a full-range design.

If that's the case, I'd build them into a sealed cabinet and use the subs so that the midrange performance is improved.

Found it: 6moons audio reviews: WLM Diva Monitor with Diva Control

And regarding the coaxials, I really dig the Beyma 12XA30 - the driver is built in, but I got them almost unused second hand and never regretted the purchase. If only I could find a good deal on the driver it uses - CP755Ti - I would have some use for it The only disadvantage of the Beyma speakers in general is their higher price, but any from Beyma I had were just top notch. Including the Liberty 8 for paraflex kick bin duties.

Good stuff. Beyma keeps popping up during my searches, but I need to give some time to look at them. Especially if I could find a second-hand set of them like you did!

Edit: Ah. Yes. A little on the pricey side

Beyma 12xa30nd - 12" Coaxial Drivers + beyma fd-2xa filters-brand new + free gift | eBay

 

[pelanj]

I also only know the ones I have - and the Beyma is the best and Beyma CP385/Nd is "nicer" to my ears than a BC DE500. I have just bought a pair of SICA CD83.26/380, but they are still in their boxes. The Selenium D210Ti was OK, but could sound harsh at times. On the other hand, an EV DH-3 has an all titanium diaphragm (I think) and sounds really nice - unfortunately one of the pair is damaged and it was not only the diaphragm. So my theory might not be applicable in general.

 

[fabricadetabaco]

Betas had already been discussed. There had been so much talk on the Vortex kits, the Celestions and the Eminience Kappalites that the new information had pushed the old information out…..


…It's interesting that you found the Beta10CX to be more useful than the 12. Hmm.[/url]

Maybe i not so clear. I do not prefer the 10 inch. I actually prefer the darker sounding 12” beta. But I believe a lot of people probably appreciate the more neutral and clear mids of the 10. But I don’t, I like the sound of a 12 more than any 10 just because of the bass and authority it creates. But both are lower end drivers. The Celestion to me outperform both. I’m sure the Kappalite 12 outperform the Celestion as well and then you get into price range of the serious players BMS, Beyma, Faital etc with much better die cast frames and HF drivers sharing magnets. If you can afford it go with something more than betas. Or if you just want to play around first the betas could be good. I like them for what they do understanding the limitations. But eventually I want something better.

 

[fabricadetabaco]

Edit: Ah. Yes. A little on the pricey side

Beyma 12xa30nd - 12" Coaxial Drivers + beyma fd-2xa filters-brand new + free gift | eBay

I dont think this is a bad price with crossovers for the Beyma.
750EUR for two including filters.
List price for one with no filter is:
Item Price: $574.95


I dont know how it compared quality wise with Kappalite or other but Im sure its very good, possibly better.
Shared neo magnet.The HF is bigger and can have lower crossover point. A very good solution Im sure.

A Kappalite solution to compare:
KL3012CX: 260USD
PSD2013S: 110USD
PXB2-1k6: 65USD
PX:LPAD: 25USD

Total 2x (a pair) = 920USD

The Kappalite combo is probably higher power but other than that who knows in a domestic setting.

 

[unaHm]

Thanks for clarifying fabricadetabaco, I apologise for misunderstanding your preference of the beta 12 over the 10!

Good point about the price of the Beymas! Certainly with considering

 

[fabricadetabaco]

No problem, both betas are good for the price don't get me wrong, but invest a little more and you have something you can live with for a long time. I think the Beyma seems to be an awesome driver to be honest.


Drivers on my watch list:

18SOUND 12NCX750
B&C 12CLX64
B&C 12CXN76
B&C 12FCX76
BEYMA 12XA30Nd
BMS 12C262
BMS 12C362
CELESTION FTX1225 (have)
EMINENCE BETA-12CX/PSD2002S (have)
EMINENCE KAPPALITE KL3012CX/PSD2013S (want)
FAITAL PRO 12HX230
FAITAL PRO 12HX240
FAITAL PRO 12HX500
MONACOR SP-312CX
RADIAN 5212B
RADIAN 5312
RADIAN 5312NEO

 

[unaHm]

So what I'm finding is that the Kappalite coaxial is about the same price as the FTX1225, but that's because it doesn't have a HF compression driver included, so it's kind of a middle-ground between the Beta/PSD combination and Kappalite/PSD combination.

I'm still not sure of what route I personally want to go. The Beta route is certainly more budget friendly, but I don't know how many compromises I want to make at this point!

 

[fabricadetabaco]

Decisions decisions decisions

To me it was simple 5 years ago: I was poor, there was no Celestion or Kappalite options so the only alternative to was 4 times the price, I got a 20% discount on the Beta range so I didn’t think much about it I bought both the 10 and the 12 because I couldn’t decide. Yet I have spent more than I would on proper BMS pair since I bought 3 pairs with the Celestion recently and I still want to try the Kappas - you see the pattern? Not least considering all the bad cabinets I made. It’s an expensive hobby even if each component is reasonably priced. Do something right the first time usually pays off.

Do you need high SPL and clarity? What is your amplification strategy and what size is the room, what’s your music preference and do you enjoy PA/concert dynamics? If you plan to use a sub anyway perhaps a 10” or 12” coax is good. How large of a box can you accept. Is a retro monkey coffin a design you like? What is your woodwork skills etc. Spending 1k on drivers might not make sense if you cannot make a good cabinet and crossovers based on real life measurements. On the other hand spending 0,5k on the betas and another 0,5k on a good box also may not make sense. How much are you willing to spend in total? You quickly end up at 1,5-2k all things considered with Beyma or BMS. At that price it better work, it’s as much as I spend on my car service bi-annually. Good coax is pricey. But I rather drop the car.

 

[unaHm]

Decisions decisions decisions

To me it was simple 5 years ago: I was poor, there was no Celestion or Kappalite options so the only alternative to was 4 times the price, I got a 20% discount on the Beta range so I didn’t think much about it I bought both the 10 and the 12 because I couldn’t decide. Yet I have spent more than I would on proper BMS pair since I bought 3 pairs with the Celestion recently and I still want to try the Kappas - you see the pattern? Not least considering all the bad cabinets I made. It’s an expensive hobby even if each component is reasonably priced. Do something right the first time usually pays off.

Haha, I see the pattern This is good advice, though - it's worth saving up and getting what we want first, rather than dealing with compromise and it costing us more.

Do you need high SPL and clarity?

Not high SPL, no. I'm aiming for studio monitor/hifi listening levels. Clarity is more important

What is your amplification strategy

I have a Yamaha receiver that I mostly use. I also test with class-T amps, so I don't have any tube amplifiers.

and what size is the room

The space I have is currently about 18 feet x 18 feet.

what’s your music preference and do you enjoy PA/concert dynamics?

The style of music depends on what I'm writing at the time When I'm listening, I'll switch between different genres.

If you plan to use a sub anyway perhaps a 10” or 12” coax is good. How large of a box can you accept. Is a retro monkey coffin a design you like?

I can accept pretty large cabinets, and I'm not particularly sold on any one design - more about how good it sounds compared to how it looks

What is your woodwork skills etc.

Pretty good. As I mentioned, I've made some Synergy-style horns where there are a fair amount of compound miters, and so I'm relatively good at gluing things together where normal clamps don't help

Spending 1k on drivers might not make sense if you cannot make a good cabinet and crossovers based on real life measurements. On the other hand spending 0,5k on the betas and another 0,5k on a good box also may not make sense. How much are you willing to spend in total? You quickly end up at 1,5-2k all things considered with Beyma or BMS. At that price it better work, it’s as much as I spend on my car service bi-annually. Good coax is pricey. But I rather drop the car.

I honestly don't know how much I'm wiling to spend. Maybe I should check out what's for sale on these forums! However, if my only options led me to $1,500-2,000 then I'd probably start to consider a wide-band compression driver and build a horn for it

 

[unaHm]

Budget-wise, for me it looks like I'm currently able to work with the Celestion FTX1225s.

 

[Riley Casey]

I demoed one of these for a few weeks with an eye toward replacing my stage monitor inventory with these drivers in custom boxes. I was impressed enough with the speakers bi-amped mounted in boxes that weren't even designed for them that I sold my vintage 1976 Altec 604s thinking I'd build some hifi enclosures when I had the monitors made. The pandemic hit and I put the monitors plan on hold but was still happy enough with the 14" B&Cs that I bought another retail. Now I just need to get some boxes built. These are excellent sounding speakers. The high power version is probably over kill for hifi but I have no idea how the lower power version compares. It's a fairly lightweight curvilinear cone so certainly needs a sub for hifi but the low to hi performance at crossover is much more pleasant than the 604s were to my ears.

14CXN88 Coaxials - B&C Speakers

 

[unaHm]

Thanks Riley! That's a serious driver! I was intrigued that they were 14" rather than 15"...I wonder if B&C have uncovered a secret

For anyone looking in the US, they're currently on sale at parts-express!

 

[fabricadetabaco]

Budget-wise, for me it looks like I'm currently able to work with the Celestion FTX1225s.

I have not tested the Celestion in a larger room so I cannot say how much bass you will get. Someone can probably help you simulate an optimal box, I’m sure it needs to be a bit larger than the 60l I made. I use mine as desktop speakers placed near wall and corners in my small home studio both near field 1,5m when I’m at the computer and “far” field at 3m when I’m in the couch only listening. My room is 3x3m with concrete wall, with some ugly resonances. I use front ports because of this. Beware that there is no stock crossover for that driver but there are two suggested crossover design variants on their website, depending on application. I still find that Beyma offer very interesting. 750 for a pair including crossovers looks like a steal. But is it a trusted seller. The frequency dips in the celestion treble is inaudible to me but may bother others. Consider how picky you are with flat frequency response. It might be the Beyma is a flatter design with its larger compression driver. But for your room perhaps a 15” would be the right choice. The Celestion 15” might be an option. It has a larger HF and can probably have a lower xo point for cleared middle range and it would definitely have more/deeper bass if you can have a 150l speaker. Make a Tannoy inspired cabinet.

 

[fabricadetabaco]

You may want to follow this ongoing thread for inspiration:
A poor man's Tannoy Arden (or similiar)

 

[unaHm]

I have not tested the Celestion in a larger room so I cannot say how much bass you will get. Someone can probably help you simulate an optimal box, I’m sure it needs to be a bit larger than the 60l I made. I use mine as desktop speakers placed near wall and corners in my small home studio both near field 1,5m when I’m at the computer and “far” field at 3m when I’m in the couch only listening. My room is 3x3m with concrete wall, with some ugly resonances. I use front ports because of this. Beware that there is no stock crossover for that driver but there are two suggested crossover design variants on their website, depending on application. I still find that Beyma offer very interesting. 750 for a pair including crossovers looks like a steal. But is it a trusted seller. The frequency dips in the celestion treble is inaudible to me but may bother others. Consider how picky you are with flat frequency response. It might be the Beyma is a flatter design with its larger compression driver. But for your room perhaps a 15” would be the right choice. The Celestion 15” might be an option. It has a larger HF and can probably have a lower xo point for cleared middle range and it would definitely have more/deeper bass if you can have a 150l speaker. Make a Tannoy inspired cabinet.

My listening setup is about 3m from each speaker, and the speakers I currently have are about 3m apart (mainly because of the line-of-sight past my computer screen). They're both pointing at my listening position.

I suppose I'd go for a smaller cabinet, so that I could move them around if I wanted to.

That eBay deal on those Beymas is in Spain, so the international shipping to the US would cancel things out

You may want to follow this ongoing thread for inspiration:
A poor man's Tannoy Arden (or similiar)

Hmm, it doesn't seem that inspiring - lots of details to consider where I was hoping for a simpler implementation. Then again, if there's a kit to do it then I'll go with that!

 

[nc535]

You will get simplicity compared to ATH waveguide solution but there will be some compromises involved unless you go all out on the box and the equalization.

Here is a link to a very hifi coax speaker. Its neither small nor simple considering its an active DSP FIR speaker but it shows what can be done

Taipuu Speakers DSP active speakers - Taipuu Speakers