Actual Jitter Measurements
This is a question from oneone who has used the first LCAudio clock, the Kwak, and the Tent with power supply. All three were different frquencies and used in three different players.
How do the measured jitter number rank with the Superclock III, Elso's latest, and the Tent clock with power supply?
I have purchased these three, and installed them. But they were in order a Pioneer PD-91, Sony SCD-775, and a Sony SCD-222ES. I really think the sonic benefit comes from isolating the XTAL from the low voltage power supply lines.
But what do I know, I have never tried just powering a stock XTAL from a dedicated supply to see if it improves the sound.
George
This is a question from oneone who has used the first LCAudio clock, the Kwak, and the Tent with power supply. All three were different frquencies and used in three different players.
How do the measured jitter number rank with the Superclock III, Elso's latest, and the Tent clock with power supply?
I have purchased these three, and installed them. But they were in order a Pioneer PD-91, Sony SCD-775, and a Sony SCD-222ES. I really think the sonic benefit comes from isolating the XTAL from the low voltage power supply lines.
But what do I know, I have never tried just powering a stock XTAL from a dedicated supply to see if it improves the sound.
George
AC logic.........
Bleeh.......!
I made the mistake of using it a time or two. Talked into it by a guy who was with a popular amplifier company out in Arizona.
Jocko
Bleeh.......!
I made the mistake of using it a time or two. Talked into it by a guy who was with a popular amplifier company out in Arizona.
Jocko
George: I would say you are definitely on the right track, but not the whole story. The digital noise on the supply rail +5V is considerable. Even after filtering and decoupling the rails, the noise is many times higher than even the (high) gate noise of the typical 74HCU04.
In a Pioneer PDS707 (a typical clocked machine) the tD signal to noise ratio measured -70dB (as taken directly out of the 74HC00 (!) based oscillator). Because of the edge triggering it was certain the noise was actually in the time domain, and not the voltage domain. You could at times hear the music signal in the time domain noise of this clock. (Which is typical for many players).
Much of this noise is - like you say - a spinoff from the digital noise found on the supply rails in the CD player.
Switching to an external clock, a metal can style clock from Madrigal (taken out of a ML player) the Time Domain S/N ratio was -98 dB. So there is really a big difference when lifting the clock circuit out of the player. (And more importantly the player's supply rails).
In a Pioneer PDS707 (a typical clocked machine) the tD signal to noise ratio measured -70dB (as taken directly out of the 74HC00 (!) based oscillator). Because of the edge triggering it was certain the noise was actually in the time domain, and not the voltage domain. You could at times hear the music signal in the time domain noise of this clock. (Which is typical for many players).
Much of this noise is - like you say - a spinoff from the digital noise found on the supply rails in the CD player.
Switching to an external clock, a metal can style clock from Madrigal (taken out of a ML player) the Time Domain S/N ratio was -98 dB. So there is really a big difference when lifting the clock circuit out of the player. (And more importantly the player's supply rails).
I know this is KBK's Shanling clock mod thread but since we have a group of individuals who seem to know good and bad in terms of digital, I was wondering what your thoughts are on using pro-audio sound cards? Not the cheapo soundblaster-alikes but the stuff they use to master the cd's that your listening to.
Stuff like Creamware, RME, Lynx et al.
I stepped up from an average Arcam CD93 to a PC based around an RME HDSP 9632. Much better sound, almost too clean actually. Obviously the harddisk based playback is bit-perfect via ASIO drivers and jitter is near non-existant.
So is this the best route for digital? External DAC's are of course possible and sync'd via the wordclock on the RME.
Any better solutions for less than £2000?
Stuff like Creamware, RME, Lynx et al.
I stepped up from an average Arcam CD93 to a PC based around an RME HDSP 9632. Much better sound, almost too clean actually. Obviously the harddisk based playback is bit-perfect via ASIO drivers and jitter is near non-existant.
So is this the best route for digital? External DAC's are of course possible and sync'd via the wordclock on the RME.
Any better solutions for less than £2000?
carlosfm said:
Wrong.
This is KBK's "patented" clock personal design thread.
Aw, come on, give the guy a break.
Most of us are proud of anything we create and can come across as a bit... well you know what.
At this point, it is simply a good place to talk about clocks. As for what I know about them, I'm too ignorant of the rest of the industry's 'smarts' concerning clocks.. ..that I should not share that whcih I personally hold to be true/understand. This is simply common sense for someone in such a position, as it makes sure I'm not telling people anything that they may not know (new stuff!!..my favorite too!!), as opposed to telling people things they already know. In this thread, I am learning, though. Specifically I'm learning where some of the components of the 'state of the art' may be in CD or digital audio clocks. I looked at the Ed Meitner clock patent (apparently a comparator of a sort) this morning. Anyone seen that one before?
Extrapolating from what it says, a jitter detection circuit of high resolution can simply be employed to reduce jitter.
So, Jocko, ever thought of turning that whole thing around...and using that measurement circuit to correct the clock?
Extrapolating from what it says, a jitter detection circuit of high resolution can simply be employed to reduce jitter.
So, Jocko, ever thought of turning that whole thing around...and using that measurement circuit to correct the clock?
carlosfm said:
Ok, I swear.
Carlos,
I understand your the man to talk to about decoupling and biasing opamps into class A.
Would it be OK if I emailed you with some questions?
Not in a clock module that sells for $25-40 I'm not!
Of course, if I was selling a "cost no object" revolutionary device I might............
Have I seen comparators as clocks???? Old hat in the telecom world. Didn't like them then, don't like them now.
Don't tell Elso! [joke]
Jocko
Of course, if I was selling a "cost no object" revolutionary device I might............
Have I seen comparators as clocks???? Old hat in the telecom world. Didn't like them then, don't like them now.
Don't tell Elso! [joke]
Jocko
BUILD IT. SELL IT. they will beat a path to your doorstep.
Nearly 20 years ago now, if not over 20 years ago..... Ferarri introduced the new GTO. They said they thought they'd never sell any as they were 'too expensive' for people to actually buy.
Within one month, all 200 that were allocated for possible building..were SOLD. This was the moment/thing that made Ferarri get back (or on it for the first time) on the 'uber car' racket/trip.
That's what happens when exclusitivity, extreme quality, and high price intermingle. Everyone wants it. anyone who can afford it, does buy it. Look at all those ridiculous amps out there. Some good..some horrible. Wires, speakers, the list is endless. Extreme grade clocks are just as saleable. If not more, now that we are definitely stuck in a digital world.
Nearly 20 years ago now, if not over 20 years ago..... Ferarri introduced the new GTO. They said they thought they'd never sell any as they were 'too expensive' for people to actually buy.
Within one month, all 200 that were allocated for possible building..were SOLD. This was the moment/thing that made Ferarri get back (or on it for the first time) on the 'uber car' racket/trip.
That's what happens when exclusitivity, extreme quality, and high price intermingle. Everyone wants it. anyone who can afford it, does buy it. Look at all those ridiculous amps out there. Some good..some horrible. Wires, speakers, the list is endless. Extreme grade clocks are just as saleable. If not more, now that we are definitely stuck in a digital world.
KBK: Well the ol' word goes, that if you have the best product, doesn't matter how expensive it is, it will sell.
But if you have the second best product, doens't matter how cheap it is, it will not sell. (very well) 😉
But if you have the second best product, doens't matter how cheap it is, it will not sell. (very well) 😉
About the oscillators, i have much admiration for those guys who did the ground breaking work in the 1920's 30's and 40's. Guys like Collpits, Hartley, Schmitt (and others). These guys made low noise oscillators for short wave radio, radar etc. before, during and after the second world war. They spent years thinking up the best possible oscillator circuit, trying to squeeze the most performance out of the parts that were avialiable to them.
Not like how engineers work nowadays.
These guys really knew what they were doing, and one can only admire their achievements.. We stand on their shoulders.
Just think about the Pierce oscillator. Maybe not recognized as the best oscillator for audio use. But still it is one of the most successful circuits ever invented. Billions are made every year!
Every computer, remote control, CD player, MP3 player, car, basicly everything that has electronics inside is most likely to have also a Pierce oscillator. How many inventions from the 1920's are still mass produced on this kind of scale today, except for the wheel and the deep dish? 😀
Many interesting biographies of these guys can be found here:
http://www.geocities.com/neveyaakov/electro_science
Not like how engineers work nowadays.
These guys really knew what they were doing, and one can only admire their achievements.. We stand on their shoulders.
Just think about the Pierce oscillator. Maybe not recognized as the best oscillator for audio use. But still it is one of the most successful circuits ever invented. Billions are made every year!
Every computer, remote control, CD player, MP3 player, car, basicly everything that has electronics inside is most likely to have also a Pierce oscillator. How many inventions from the 1920's are still mass produced on this kind of scale today, except for the wheel and the deep dish? 😀
Many interesting biographies of these guys can be found here:
http://www.geocities.com/neveyaakov/electro_science
Take off, eh...........[joke]
You are the one into revolutionary stuff. You make it. And then we can all sit back and watch you pull your hair out wondering why no one cares. The rest of us are just trying to make a living. Without selling over-hyped GPTs.
Lars is right. Just because a handful of twits will buy anything that Mark Levinson puts his moniker on, doesn't mean that idea will work for the rest of us.
Ferarri knows that anything that they make will sell. Unless they plan on making 10 million of them. There are not enough rich people to support that many, and it would lose its exclusivity with that many. They wouldn't want it then. You have to know your target market.
Obvioulsy, someone knows how to sell $300 clocks that won't do diddly squat. They found you!
Nope, I'll stick to putting $40 (installed) clocks in my customers 15-year old CDPs. They get much improved sound for not a lot of money. No one in their right mind would pour $300 (uninstalled) into something that could die the next week, and not be repairable. My customers also know better than to buy a "one size fits all" DVD.
Jocko
You are the one into revolutionary stuff. You make it. And then we can all sit back and watch you pull your hair out wondering why no one cares. The rest of us are just trying to make a living. Without selling over-hyped GPTs.
Lars is right. Just because a handful of twits will buy anything that Mark Levinson puts his moniker on, doesn't mean that idea will work for the rest of us.
Ferarri knows that anything that they make will sell. Unless they plan on making 10 million of them. There are not enough rich people to support that many, and it would lose its exclusivity with that many. They wouldn't want it then. You have to know your target market.
Obvioulsy, someone knows how to sell $300 clocks that won't do diddly squat. They found you!
Nope, I'll stick to putting $40 (installed) clocks in my customers 15-year old CDPs. They get much improved sound for not a lot of money. No one in their right mind would pour $300 (uninstalled) into something that could die the next week, and not be repairable. My customers also know better than to buy a "one size fits all" DVD.
Jocko
Jocko is right.
Who would pay $300 or even $400 for a clock?
Maby those with expen$ive Mark Levinson, Wadia or Sony SCD-1 players, which are not so many unfortunate.
A Linn CD12 may not need it.😀
Who would pay $300 or even $400 for a clock?
Maby those with expen$ive Mark Levinson, Wadia or Sony SCD-1 players, which are not so many unfortunate.
A Linn CD12 may not need it.😀
hmm..Ive no idea what the comment on the CD-12 means, but..I've heard it and the clocking system I created is far superior, compared to the sound coming off that CD-12 unit.
As for $300 clocks, I just bought one. The superclock III. $299.00US. But..it is for experimentation purposes only. Don't try this at home, Kids.
As for $300 clocks, I just bought one. The superclock III. $299.00US. But..it is for experimentation purposes only. Don't try this at home, Kids.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.