If that is the case I think the "light" pocket version should have been limited in other areas instead than the attempt to frustrate the user making separate files. I am making print outs now right after the measurements so I will have multiple graphs in one shot...which is frankly said and annoying way to work (just to "stimulate" customers to use the normal version of CLIO?) Leaving out an extra feature as polar plot in the pocket version would seem logical if the pocket user could have the common sense option to store a file with the multiple curves in it.
Maybe we're talking about different things but if not, these are my 2 cents
Arno
Maybe we're talking about different things but if not, these are my 2 cents
Arno
Very reasonable thoughts Arno. 
It must be quite a juggling act to design stuff like this for the world markets. Audiomatica has to decide on all kinds of factors when making measurement products beneath its flagship CLIO 12. You just have to decide whether CLIO Pocket makes sense for the money relative to its competition and go for it or not.
I think it is a steal for what it can do, some of which isn't available in any other measurement platform regardless of price (cycle based wavelet analysis for example). I know I've mentioned this before, but I could not live without the flagship CLIO 12 because I don't have the patience for exactly the reasons you mention, plus I want the horsepower it has.
I sell Audiomatica's and Outline's measurement products, so take all this with a grain of salt if you'd like.
The other "basics" I have, don't sell, and don't want to live without:
1. Audio Precision APx515 with most options. Ideal for low noise electrical audio domain.
2. SysTune Pro. Ideal for real time two channel FFT.
3. PicoScope 5244B. Ideal for wideband oscilloscope and FFT.
4. Some (OK, a bunch of) other stuff of equivalent quality and utility.
I'm not rich, I just choose audio over clothing, food and shelter.
It must be quite a juggling act to design stuff like this for the world markets. Audiomatica has to decide on all kinds of factors when making measurement products beneath its flagship CLIO 12. You just have to decide whether CLIO Pocket makes sense for the money relative to its competition and go for it or not.
I think it is a steal for what it can do, some of which isn't available in any other measurement platform regardless of price (cycle based wavelet analysis for example). I know I've mentioned this before, but I could not live without the flagship CLIO 12 because I don't have the patience for exactly the reasons you mention, plus I want the horsepower it has.
I sell Audiomatica's and Outline's measurement products, so take all this with a grain of salt if you'd like.
The other "basics" I have, don't sell, and don't want to live without:
1. Audio Precision APx515 with most options. Ideal for low noise electrical audio domain.
2. SysTune Pro. Ideal for real time two channel FFT.
3. PicoScope 5244B. Ideal for wideband oscilloscope and FFT.
4. Some (OK, a bunch of) other stuff of equivalent quality and utility.
I'm not rich, I just choose audio over clothing, food and shelter.
To me a comparison comes to my mind when a car manufacturer decides to make a cheaper version of a top model car by removing 1 of the 4 wheels...."If they want the fourth wheel they should buy the top model"
With the car example it will serve the customers and the branding much better to have 4 wheels on each model and on the cheapest cut down on airco, nav system, cruise control, horse power etc...
Not for my own convenience but for the customer experience for the clio pocket I would have made a different mix.
(Coincidence that the CLIO is also a car ?)
With the car example it will serve the customers and the branding much better to have 4 wheels on each model and on the cheapest cut down on airco, nav system, cruise control, horse power etc...
Not for my own convenience but for the customer experience for the clio pocket I would have made a different mix.
(Coincidence that the CLIO is also a car
?)Nevertheless, I know where I am coming from...about 25Y ago measuring SPL speaker curves with a wobbled sine signal and measuring each frequency data point with my home made dB meter, marking it on a paper graph...while praying that one day fancy automated systems would be available at a reasonable price.....And here it is, CLIO pocket...a Miracle that I enjoy with every press of the button sending the signals through my speakers (except for the file saving thing of course )
)Langston, thanks for the pointer to SysTune Pro. Looks to be a tool to try out for room measurements.
***
As for usability - I've tried most of the tools available from hobby to pro level. Yet to find one package that does everything well. There are always pros and cons in each.
For graphical interface and multi measurement/graphing capabilities wise my favourite is
FuzzMeasure
But that will assume one has an Apple computer. And even if one has it then overall with soundcard included it'll cost about the same as the Pocket.
***
As for usability - I've tried most of the tools available from hobby to pro level. Yet to find one package that does everything well. There are always pros and cons in each.
For graphical interface and multi measurement/graphing capabilities wise my favourite is
FuzzMeasure
But that will assume one has an Apple computer. And even if one has it then overall with soundcard included it'll cost about the same as the Pocket.
Hi everyone, hi iholland
Hope to find some answers, just ordered clio pocket, cant wait for the hands on!
How flexible is the device?
1. can I plug any other Mic into the clio pocket?
2. can I enter my individual calibration curve into clio p. software to further improve the included clio mic ?
3. is the device available (mac or win) as open interface to other apps ?
4. Can I run any other external stimulus to view response, distortion, wow-flutter, etc from external analogue sources (e.g. test-vinyl)
5. Can I export both the recorded WAV as well as the generated IR for potential analysis in other software?
6. If 5 is yes, is there a file to convolve the recorded sirp with to make my own impulse extraction?
7. Can I run average of multiple sirps?
8. is the precision enough to measure even 1 meter loudspeaker cable L & C & R ?
Would be grateful for some answers.
cheers
Josh
Hope to find some answers, just ordered clio pocket, cant wait for the hands on!
How flexible is the device?
1. can I plug any other Mic into the clio pocket?
2. can I enter my individual calibration curve into clio p. software to further improve the included clio mic ?
3. is the device available (mac or win) as open interface to other apps ?
4. Can I run any other external stimulus to view response, distortion, wow-flutter, etc from external analogue sources (e.g. test-vinyl)
5. Can I export both the recorded WAV as well as the generated IR for potential analysis in other software?
6. If 5 is yes, is there a file to convolve the recorded sirp with to make my own impulse extraction?
7. Can I run average of multiple sirps?
8. is the precision enough to measure even 1 meter loudspeaker cable L & C & R ?
Would be grateful for some answers.
cheers
Josh
Forgot no 9
I want to sirp my amp out. Can I:
a. load the amp with 8 ohm resistor
b. feed it with 50hz sine 1 volt input
c. measure with my AC meter
d. change the level till the meter shows about 1 volt
e. use that level setting now and plug the aligots right onto the amp out parallel to the load-resistor
f. get a reliable DC-inf response
??
PS: target is to invert the amps DC filter group delay via FIR
I want to sirp my amp out. Can I:
a. load the amp with 8 ohm resistor
b. feed it with 50hz sine 1 volt input
c. measure with my AC meter
d. change the level till the meter shows about 1 volt
e. use that level setting now and plug the aligots right onto the amp out parallel to the load-resistor
f. get a reliable DC-inf response
??
PS: target is to invert the amps DC filter group delay via FIR
Hi Josh!
I share your excitement, I love measurement - it's easily the best education I've ever had in audio.
In general, many of your questions indicate advanced applications that warrant a hard look at CLIO 12, which not only would result in "Yes" to each of your questions but would be convenient to implement.
> 1. can I plug any other Mic into the clio pocket?
Yes. Audio measurement is all about transduction from the domain of interest (air pressure variation in this case), into electrical voltage (analogous to pressure) variation. So the trick in using other microphones is to get their electrical output into a format the CP-01 (CLIO Pocket interface) can interpret. That means unbalanced and at a level between -40dBV to +40dBV. That means you'll probably have to use a microphone preamp with other mics (unless it's an Earthworks M30BX). In most cases the MIC-02 included with CLIO Pocket is very good too.
> 2. can I enter my individual calibration curve into clio p. software to further improve the included clio mic ?
No. CLIO 12 provides for that, but even then I prefer to use mics that are good enough that correction curves are unnecessary. The MIC-02 is one of those in my opinion. With that said, with CLIO Pocket you can perform math procedures on measurements using a previous measurement. If that measurement were the inverse of a mic's error response, you could divide it into the current measurement to eliminate the mic's error - but this would change the SPL reading to a relative instead of absolute reading. Not good.
> 3. is the device available (mac or win) as open interface to other apps ?
Yes. Both. Example.
> 4. Can I run any other external stimulus to view response, distortion, wow-flutter, etc from external analogue sources (e.g. test-vinyl)
Yes. But only in the FFT module and since CLIO Pocket is a single channel system, the result of this has limited utility.
> 5. Can I export both the recorded WAV as well as the generated IR for potential analysis in other software?
Yes.
> 6. If 5 is yes, is there a file to convolve the recorded sirp with to make my own impulse extraction?
No. I'm not sure what you mean by "sirp", but in context I believe you mean the measured IR. You can do this with a wonderful and free application by the maker of CATT Acoustic called GratisVolver.
> 7. Can I run average of multiple sirps?
No. You can only average in the FFT module in CLIO Pocket.
> 8. is the precision enough to measure even 1 meter loudspeaker cable L & C & R ?
No. Not the reactive elements within the resolution needed. A study of loudspeaker cabling affects on sound systems is interesting, be prepared to find much heat without much light in the discussions.
I share your excitement, I love measurement - it's easily the best education I've ever had in audio.
In general, many of your questions indicate advanced applications that warrant a hard look at CLIO 12, which not only would result in "Yes" to each of your questions but would be convenient to implement.
> 1. can I plug any other Mic into the clio pocket?
Yes. Audio measurement is all about transduction from the domain of interest (air pressure variation in this case), into electrical voltage (analogous to pressure) variation. So the trick in using other microphones is to get their electrical output into a format the CP-01 (CLIO Pocket interface) can interpret. That means unbalanced and at a level between -40dBV to +40dBV. That means you'll probably have to use a microphone preamp with other mics (unless it's an Earthworks M30BX). In most cases the MIC-02 included with CLIO Pocket is very good too.
> 2. can I enter my individual calibration curve into clio p. software to further improve the included clio mic ?
No. CLIO 12 provides for that, but even then I prefer to use mics that are good enough that correction curves are unnecessary. The MIC-02 is one of those in my opinion. With that said, with CLIO Pocket you can perform math procedures on measurements using a previous measurement. If that measurement were the inverse of a mic's error response, you could divide it into the current measurement to eliminate the mic's error - but this would change the SPL reading to a relative instead of absolute reading. Not good.
> 3. is the device available (mac or win) as open interface to other apps ?
Yes. Both. Example.
> 4. Can I run any other external stimulus to view response, distortion, wow-flutter, etc from external analogue sources (e.g. test-vinyl)
Yes. But only in the FFT module and since CLIO Pocket is a single channel system, the result of this has limited utility.
> 5. Can I export both the recorded WAV as well as the generated IR for potential analysis in other software?
Yes.
> 6. If 5 is yes, is there a file to convolve the recorded sirp with to make my own impulse extraction?
No. I'm not sure what you mean by "sirp", but in context I believe you mean the measured IR. You can do this with a wonderful and free application by the maker of CATT Acoustic called GratisVolver.
> 7. Can I run average of multiple sirps?
No. You can only average in the FFT module in CLIO Pocket.
> 8. is the precision enough to measure even 1 meter loudspeaker cable L & C & R ?
No. Not the reactive elements within the resolution needed. A study of loudspeaker cabling affects on sound systems is interesting, be prepared to find much heat without much light in the discussions.
Hi Langston, thank you so much, perfecto! seems to be an impressive device.
I little pity bout the LCR limits. Especially seeing the 0.0001 Ohm resolution in the video.
What if i use 10 meter cable instead, plus add another cap or resistor (depends) and measure cap vs cap with cable???
Are there any whitepapers reg. Min LCR values it can read, and also tolerances of each?
I was hoping to at least read how much pF capacitive coupling my new isolating transformers for electricity supply have. Not necessarily planning to open a cable philosophy talk too dangerous!
Ah and if u have the time regarding my amp questikn? Id be very thankful!
I heard its overload protected? 1 volt is the max? So i can fire 10 and just clip without damage? And hooked up the way i described itll work without impedance Problem?
Cheers
Josh
seems to be an impressive device. I little pity bout the LCR limits. Especially seeing the 0.0001 Ohm resolution in the video.
What if i use 10 meter cable instead, plus add another cap or resistor (depends) and measure cap vs cap with cable???
Are there any whitepapers reg. Min LCR values it can read, and also tolerances of each?
I was hoping to at least read how much pF capacitive coupling my new isolating transformers for electricity supply have. Not necessarily planning to open a cable philosophy talk
too dangerous!Ah and if u have the time regarding my amp questikn? Id be very thankful!
I heard its overload protected? 1 volt is the max? So i can fire 10 and just clip without damage? And hooked up the way i described itll work without impedance Problem?
Cheers
Josh
Hi Josh:
I'm in an airplane terminal on my way to the AES convention in NYC in few minutes, so my last post was kind of hurried and I won't be able to get to the amp question yet, but...
You can get close to the resolution you want L/C wise with CLIO Pocket if you measure the DUT's impedance with the LogChirp module set to 96kHz SR and 64K FFT sample size. Resistance you can get very high resolution without much trouble.
Steps
1. Let the CP-01 warm up for about 10 minutes.
2. Setup CLIO Pocket to measure impedance (loopback engaged, included impedance measurement cable attached).
3. Clip the alligator leads together into a short circuit.
4. Make a few measurements to prove to yourself that you have a consistent result.
5. Save that measurement.
6. Clip the alligator leads to the DUT and make the measurement.
7. Go into the math module and subtract the reference file you made with the shorted leads from the current measurement. That will be very, very accurate.
8. Use my video if necessary to calculate inductance and/or capacitance at a frequency of interest. The resistive part of the curve will be the lowest, flattest part of the curve.
9. Use CLIO Pocket's built-in L/C/R measurement for comparison/fun.
Amp measurement stuff will come later, plane is about to load, but the big issue with CLIO Pocket is that you MUST measure only amps that have a common ground (not bridged). MUST isn't ever true by the way, it just means it's hard, complex and/or expensive to do. There's always a way to skin a cat.
I'm in an airplane terminal on my way to the AES convention in NYC in few minutes, so my last post was kind of hurried and I won't be able to get to the amp question yet, but...
You can get close to the resolution you want L/C wise with CLIO Pocket if you measure the DUT's impedance with the LogChirp module set to 96kHz SR and 64K FFT sample size. Resistance you can get very high resolution without much trouble.
Steps
1. Let the CP-01 warm up for about 10 minutes.
2. Setup CLIO Pocket to measure impedance (loopback engaged, included impedance measurement cable attached).
3. Clip the alligator leads together into a short circuit.
4. Make a few measurements to prove to yourself that you have a consistent result.
5. Save that measurement.
6. Clip the alligator leads to the DUT and make the measurement.
7. Go into the math module and subtract the reference file you made with the shorted leads from the current measurement. That will be very, very accurate.
8. Use my video if necessary to calculate inductance and/or capacitance at a frequency of interest. The resistive part of the curve will be the lowest, flattest part of the curve.
9. Use CLIO Pocket's built-in L/C/R measurement for comparison/fun.
Amp measurement stuff will come later, plane is about to load, but the big issue with CLIO Pocket is that you MUST measure only amps that have a common ground (not bridged). MUST isn't ever true by the way, it just means it's hard, complex and/or expensive to do. There's always a way to skin a cat.
Ahhh this is what i wanted to hear.
Now this device really rocks
Given the circumstances u reply, i guess its proven that youre passioned bout what youre doin!
Hope youll get your signal in the taxi soon Greet that lovely city from me!
K with the ground, id be interested in a further step (as i got one bridged) but the basic would more than please me for now.
cheers
Josh
Now this device really rocks
Given the circumstances u reply, i guess its proven that youre passioned bout what youre doin!
Hope youll get your signal in the taxi soon
Greet that lovely city from me!K with the ground, id be interested in a further step (as i got one bridged) but the basic would more than please me for now.
cheers
Josh
Ah hi again. I went bit further to the links and i see we talk bout different things
- interface open to other software
-> i didnt mean the file but the hardware like if its an in out audio device accessible via core audio for use via other measuring apps to run through the box
- use the recorded sirp
-> did not mean the impulse response. But the audio file containing the “uuuiiiip” with its 1.4 seconds length eg. Then i could extract the harmonics frequency response.
Cheers
Josh
- interface open to other software
-> i didnt mean the file but the hardware
like if its an in out audio device accessible via core audio for use via other measuring apps to run through the box- use the recorded sirp
-> did not mean the impulse response. But the audio file containing the “uuuiiiip”
with its 1.4 seconds length eg. Then i could extract the harmonics frequency response. Cheers
Josh
Software is fine, you need to check the OS a bit as this a somewhat new problem.
El Capitan: You can't open the application 'app... |
Official Apple Support Communities
El Capitan: You can't open the application 'app... |
Official Apple Support Communities
Um....the logical sequence for audio was....
Wax-roll, Vinyl, Tape, CD, download...
Just download and make a CD (or data tape)???
ya I hope its my system which I stuffed with garbage for 5 years now in that case, sorry for spaming the thread here.
Didn't manage to fix yet.
But asking the support yesterday, they asked for serial no. today, which I don't see sitting in the office, by the time I get home, itll be weekend, so they may reply Monday.... 4 days after device receival. u see the problem with such "on demand" stuff?
I don't understand why they don't offer a download directly from their server. As the device anyway works like a dongle theres no reason for that. Its all bit stoneage.
And just for the record, CD is outdated for 10 years now! Not since yesterday.
Felt like usin a floppy...
I know I may be picky but the audio scene is quiet conservative.
in that case, sorry for spaming the thread here.Didn't manage to fix yet.
But asking the support yesterday, they asked for serial no. today, which I don't see sitting in the office, by the time I get home, itll be weekend, so they may reply Monday.... 4 days after device receival. u see the problem with such "on demand" stuff?
I don't understand why they don't offer a download directly from their server. As the device anyway works like a dongle theres no reason for that. Its all bit stoneage.
And just for the record, CD is outdated for 10 years now! Not since yesterday.
Felt like usin a floppy...
I know I may be picky but the audio scene is quiet conservative.
measuring power amp
back to smth positive. It runs under windows. Tolerance of calibration 0.001%. Like they say. Nice
Well, the specs say that the input accepts 283 volt. Hope they didn't miss a point
That would mean I could clamp it right on the power amp output. With load resistor or without. No voltage divider nor resistor needed. Or?
They don't specify the ampere though, I don't want to blow the device.
Loadwise the low impedance shouldn't matter.
Guess in case I test harmonics on full load of my 1kW amp I still need a bigger resistor serial (1kR?) to the parallel-load-res. (8R) in order to shrink the ampere down.
But 1-10 watts shouldn't matter even without serial resistor, does it?
back to smth positive. It runs under windows. Tolerance of calibration 0.001%. Like they say. Nice
Well, the specs say that the input accepts 283 volt. Hope they didn't miss a point
That would mean I could clamp it right on the power amp output. With load resistor or without. No voltage divider nor resistor needed. Or?
They don't specify the ampere though, I don't want to blow the device.
Loadwise the low impedance shouldn't matter.
Guess in case I test harmonics on full load of my 1kW amp I still need a bigger resistor serial (1kR?) to the parallel-load-res. (8R) in order to shrink the ampere down.
But 1-10 watts shouldn't matter even without serial resistor, does it?