Agreed. Way back in the 1970's I had a Linn Sondek L12 turntable with a Grace G-707 tonearm and Supex SD-900/E moving coil cartridge. The performance of the combination was quite exceptional. Nothing else on the market at the time could come anywhere near it
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Basically, the less moving mass involved in the cantilever's assembly, the better, and quicker it can respond and negotiate difficult modulations in the groove.
Additionally, less groove wear is a result.
Hear the differences in draatafel,different material on plateaus,aluminum,perspex,mdf,then the pickup arm also in different materials,then the turntable springing or not springing,then the motor direct drive or string,and then we are not talking about pickup elements.😀😀🥴. CD also has its major problems in electronics. You have analog fantasist and digital fantasist. I would say enjoy the music. Wollie. 😀😀😀
A lovely combination. I still have a 900 body i need to send off to Garrot Brothers or similar.
dave
I meant that things like this were covered by my broad and sweeping comment: "Once all the obvious mechanical requirements have been met..."!
And it is probably reasonable to say that no-one has done that yet? - otherwise all the accepted good TT's would perform the same?
It amazes me that re-assembling the same thing repeatedly can perform differently each time, tiny differences in assembly make big differences in performance, sometimes! - a bit of torque on one mounting bolt might change the whole result.
I must be the only one who understands that turntable performance isn't related to expensive "high end" machines.
The lowly "standard quality" Kenwood DD linear-tracker in my system out-performs far more expensive players.
Measurements in the shop proved this, and so did my ears.
For a machine made in the mid-1980's, it's still holding its own quite nicely.
The lowly "standard quality" Kenwood DD linear-tracker in my system out-performs far more expensive players.
Measurements in the shop proved this, and so did my ears.
For a machine made in the mid-1980's, it's still holding its own quite nicely.
This is very pertinent point. Reducing the noise in a TT system does improve the accuracy of the unit. for eg, Frequency Modulation below the noise floor of the vinyl will still produce potentially audible artifacts in an indirect way, causing modulation of every note in the music. The better the whole audio system chain the more audible these effects will be.
A TT is an extremely sensitive seismic measurement system ANY vibration not cut into the LP will reduce the accuracy of the output of the cartridge. The issue here is that the cartridge is often more sensitive than the test equipment used to measure the performance of the TT such as accelerometers.
Music waveform consist of both X and Y axes. The TT drive system is responsible for the X axis and the cartridge the Y axis. Both X and Y axes must be accurate for the output to be a faithful reproduction of the modulation cut into the groove. Then to complicate the matter further the cartridge imparts a HUGE amount of energy typical 1000g (source Shure) into both the tonearm and platter, this energy bounces around and some will be reflected back to the stylus which the cartridge will read and combine with the original signal it's reading at that moment. This reflected energy causes either AM or FM distortion depending on plane of oscillation. A bearing for eg most of the vibration energy causes FM as its mode of oscillation is along the groove, so bearing noise below the noise floor can effect the audio signal.
The top end of town TT manufacturers go to great lengths to control vibration energy with massive metal platters. IMO this is the wrong way to go because most of these TT's will have an MC cartridge and Lenz effect must contribute to a degradation in accuracy of reproduction. I guess the point here is that TT's will sound different due to the different drive systems / platter material / plinth construction and the list goes on. Even manufacturing tolerances will effect how a TT sounds, will it be audible depends on other variables such as the accuracy of the rest of the audio chain.
Eliminating sub-sonic disturbances is easy, no need for heavy platters.
A proper sub-sonic filter (Sallen-Key design) works like magic and doesn't detract anything from the hearable music.
As i see it the subsonic filter is too late in the chain, if subsonics or any other frequencies were added in in the mechanical parts of the system they will already have added to and subtracted from the signal in all sorts of ways which will be audible and cannot be removed. for sure a particular LF such as rumble at an inaudible frequency can be removed from what one hears but the effects will still be there in its effects on the rest of the signal. the only way is to remove the cause of such a frequency which is back to "Once all the obvious mechanical requirements have been met..."! which folk have worked on for years and so far failed, but maybe got close?
Exactly and this is what most people fail to understand. Those subsonic vibrations have modulated the signal at the cartridge so removing them at the phono pre will NOT remove the modulated sidebands from the signal.
A turntable is an electro mechanical device. it transmits mechanical movements of the stylus in a record groove, and it transform the mechanical movements into a weak electrical signal, that is then amplified and rendered to audio or accoustic sound via speakers. There are many variables there. I used to have an old direct drive Dual CS 606 model 1982, which served me well, until I changed it to an Audio Technica AT-LP120, also a direct drive but it has quartz PLL lock. The speed is very accurate and constant, but you can disable the quartz lock and can alter the speed to like +/- 10%. The speed can be checked with it's built in strobe. It also plays backwards. It came with it's AT moving magnet cartridge, I replaced it with an Ortofon blue, which cost like the whole turntable. I think the Ortofon sounds slightly better in bass, however very little difference in sound between the two cartridges.
Turntables beng analogue devices and due to many variables in the audio chain, I agree that two turntables can sound different. However a turntable is not an acoustic musical instrument. It's an electro mechanical transducer or if you want, player.
Turntables beng analogue devices and due to many variables in the audio chain, I agree that two turntables can sound different. However a turntable is not an acoustic musical instrument. It's an electro mechanical transducer or if you want, player.
My take is that you do not have to spend thousands or as you said 20k to get a "decent" turntable. I think direct drive units are very accurate with quartz PLL and have an extremely low rumble, if at all. Use it with a fairly good cartridge and a central stabilizing weight, and you can get a very decent sound.To me, belt drive turntables are not as acurrate as direct drive units, the speed has more variation and I think rumble is higher. Plus rubber belts get old, they need to be replaced, while a direct drive units has no wear, it is sturdy and very accurate for decades. However there is no limit on how much one can invest in an audio system, and with very little sonic improvements.
It is also amazing how much difference simple changes to any turntable and its surroundings can make. The way the turntable is mounted and what happens to all the unwanted vibrations that don't come from the modulation of the groove being just one significant part. then one can go on into the arm etc, a minefield or acres of opportunity depending how you look at it. Partly compressed elastic foam is a versatile mounting material, probably costs nothing as it is frequently sent as packaging and can transform some things, used in the right place and way.....M. Oh, BTW, yes for sure turntables sound (perform) different, because they are imperfect compromises with variability built in.....
Rod Elliot's effective Sallen-Key subsonic filter can be built for a couple of dollars, and do not add stress and weight to the platter bearing.
I doubt that those record weights can be purchased for the same price.
A decent turntable will have inaudible rumble as compared to the music it plays, however feedback from speakers and/or poor location/setup of the system or loud playback levels needs some sort of sub-sonic elimination.
In some cases, proper turntable mounting works, in others, a filter is required.
In another case, the record's own noise floor generates subsonic noise, and must be filtered out.
Yes, we're pretty much familier with those specifications if you poke around on here and the internet.
Things cannot get fixed after the fact. A HP rumble filter just keeps the LF fundemental from causing the woofer to pump.
dave