Precisely. I'm not one who tries to prove things so that no one can argue against...if something like that can ever be achieved. Well...unless you're so kind as to take my own experiences (which are absolutely certain to me) as a proof to you, as well. But I don't expect so much... it would be unreasonable, since we're mostly strangers to each other.
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I think there's all too much intolerance and self-deluded arrogance in the claims of objectiveness that science & scientists (or pseudo scientists) make, anyway.
The basic argument against all that is that every individual is a "unicum", therefore his faculties are unique too, therefore his understanding of reality is unique as well, meaning that everyone has something unique to say, and undeniably true as such. 🙂
The basic argument against all that is that every individual is a "unicum", therefore his faculties are unique too, therefore his understanding of reality is unique as well, meaning that everyone has something unique to say, and undeniably true as such. 🙂
I'm reminded of something that happened while visiting a great domaine in Burgundy, the legendary Comte de Vogue in Musigny. An article by a very foolish wine writer had just appeared making ridiculous statements about their one of the very best vintages of their Grand Cru. Their winemaker was a very neat, quiet, and soft-spoken man who is legendary for not displaying emotion- his nickname is The Accountant. After doing some extensive barrel tastings there, one of our little group (a Master of Wine candidate) asked, "What do you think of Pierre XXX's recent story?"
The Accountant showed some emotion for the first time that afternoon. His eyes flashing, he said very evenly, with appropriate pauses, "The problem... with the freedom of the press... is... that one is free... to write all sorts of nonsense."
The Accountant showed some emotion for the first time that afternoon. His eyes flashing, he said very evenly, with appropriate pauses, "The problem... with the freedom of the press... is... that one is free... to write all sorts of nonsense."
Andrea you contradict yourself you roll op-amps like a bunny and talk about sitting with your music and appriciating it. I think maybe you are not what you appear to be, maybe a troll. Silver is hard and lead is soft and dull, blah, blah, blah.
"self-deluded arrogance in the claims of objectiveness that science & scientists (or pseudo scientists) make, anyway."
At least the the claims of objectivists are up for scrutiny and peer review, where as yours are just "self-deluded arrogance in the claims" you make with no proof. Absolutely no proof but what you think you hear. For all I know you could have one, half good ear and are drunk all the time, but Im still supposed to take your word for the way silver sounds different than copper. And what really kills me about your type is the indignance, when we dont buy it.
At least the the claims of objectivists are up for scrutiny and peer review, where as yours are just "self-deluded arrogance in the claims" you make with no proof. Absolutely no proof but what you think you hear. For all I know you could have one, half good ear and are drunk all the time, but Im still supposed to take your word for the way silver sounds different than copper. And what really kills me about your type is the indignance, when we dont buy it.
What I "think" (did I read correctly?!) I hear is the best proof I could provide to myself! The rest (sharing it with others) is merely a consequence. Obviously as we can clearly see I won't be able to share it with everyone...but this was taken into account from the start.
On the other hand, in forums I've seen so much allegedly scientific proof that all cables (or metals, or opamps, or I don't know what) sound the same, and other similarly enjoyable "facts". 😀
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You sure? I don't roll opamps like a bunny. When I feel content with an opamp, I tend to keep it and roll CD's instead 😉
Same with cables. 😉
The problem instead is feeling truly content with anything... Even with the Audioquest King Cobra & Supra TRICO-RCA I'm using with my DAC I'm not 100% content...just 98%.
The problem instead is feeling truly content with anything... Even with the Audioquest King Cobra & Supra TRICO-RCA I'm using with my DAC I'm not 100% content...just 98%.
Let's take a new perspective on things?
If scientists 200 years ago had used the same logic we wouldn't have gotten to where we are today.
If one can't measure it today it's tomorrows research. Maybe in 20 years time scientists have found a way to quantify these listening experences?
There are very few absolues.
On the other hand, it's very possible that it's all psychological and there is nothing to find.
However we can never be sure.
If scientists 200 years ago had used the same logic we wouldn't have gotten to where we are today.
If one can't measure it today it's tomorrows research. Maybe in 20 years time scientists have found a way to quantify these listening experences?
There are very few absolues.
On the other hand, it's very possible that it's all psychological and there is nothing to find.
However we can never be sure.
They probably (though 20 years seems too little time for finding a significant contrast) couldn't have used the same logic, because this kind of logic has grown from the evidence of the narrowness of science and its mechanical objectifying processes, that is, grown (on a larger ground) around the 3rd millennium...
It's a post-scientific logic. 🙂
Maybe...let's keep hoping. 😛
And on these very few science has no monopoly at all.
Reality starts from the mind. The mind is where all truth lies, external reality is just the projection of it. This is particularly evident when it comes to aesthetic tastes, and especially to our niche field of sonic perceptions...
We can, actually. But not by means of scientific demonstration.
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Again no straight answer as to why it seems an audio myth (for want of a better description) is that silver IC's sound brighter than copper, also silver plated copper,😕
Another question is are the silver ICs all silver, ie is the shield that also provides the return current path silver as ALL signals flow in a loop?
As to measuring ICs, as there are no transducers involved it should be possible to put a known signal through an IC, measure the signal at the other end and compare the two signals in a variety of ways.
To solve a lot of interconnect problems though IMO I would say its best to look at proffesional audio and high speed digital interfaces that use balanced (differential pair) signal transmission, with impedence matching as well. Cable geomatries the same for both the signal and its return, good noise CMR rejection with twisted pairs etc.
Another question is are the silver ICs all silver, ie is the shield that also provides the return current path silver as ALL signals flow in a loop?
As to measuring ICs, as there are no transducers involved it should be possible to put a known signal through an IC, measure the signal at the other end and compare the two signals in a variety of ways.
To solve a lot of interconnect problems though IMO I would say its best to look at proffesional audio and high speed digital interfaces that use balanced (differential pair) signal transmission, with impedence matching as well. Cable geomatries the same for both the signal and its return, good noise CMR rejection with twisted pairs etc.
You're not likely to get one Marc. I never have yet, and believe me it's not for a lack of asking.
Precisely. That's why I really wish one of the people who claim to percieve huge audible differences between different conductor materials would actually compare them. As in comparing wires otherwise identical bar the conductor material, rather than as but one of a myriad of other variations. Perhaps they can. Or perhaps they are deluding themselves. But none have ever done such a comparison yet to the best of my knoweldge, let alone with multiple listeners, on multiple occasions, in multiple systems (which would at least allow us to assess whether any differences, should they exist, are consistantly defined in a variety of contexts, or whether it's simply random, or blind luck). Whenever I ask, the response has always been something along the lines of 'it isn't necessary,' an excuse that is feeble at best, farcical at worst, and completely torpedoes the credibility of their own arguments.
Last time the subject came up (elsewhere), I was having quite a friendly discussion with a genuinely nice chap, who also believed there are huge differences in the sonic character of materials in speaker wire. When I asked what he'd compared in order to ascertain this, turned out one was a copper wire; zip-cord style configuration, roughly 11ga. The other was approximately 18ga gold (solid 9 carat gold! Must be nice to have that kind of disposible income...), with fully discrete positive and negative legs deliberately kept well appart. The copper wire was 8ft long, the gold was 15ft. The gold wire was apparantly 'warmer' and 'fuller', with 'a very gentle and smooth top end', while the copper 'had tighter bass', was 'crisper' and 'more illuminated at the top' (I paraphrase slightly, but that's what was remarked, if memory serves).
Now, call me Mr Picky if you will, but methinks the electrical properties of the two wires were just a trifle different, ne cest pas? And that the differences mentioned might well have had something to do with the far greater voltage drop & inductance in the gold based wires affecting the behaviour of the speakers and amplifier they were used with (the first of which was an evil 2ohm load & the latter one of those high-priced jobs that goes a-whoring after output impedances even lower than the lengths a Politician will stoop to)? He was such a nice guy I decided not to mention this to him, although it might have been kinder to (certainly to his wallet). Perhaps there are differences in the sound of conductor materials, although given that they don't actually produce sound, I'm at a loss to figure out how, and am forced to remain a cynic on the subject until someone is actually brave enough to demonstrate it in a manner a rational being who knows nothing about the subject could swallow without gagging.
Precisely. That's why I really wish one of the people who claim to percieve huge audible differences between different conductor materials would actually compare them. As in comparing wires otherwise identical bar the conductor material, rather than as but one of a myriad of other variations. Perhaps they can. Or perhaps they are deluding themselves. But none have ever done such a comparison yet to the best of my knoweldge, let alone with multiple listeners, on multiple occasions, in multiple systems (which would at least allow us to assess whether any differences, should they exist, are consistantly defined in a variety of contexts, or whether it's simply random, or blind luck). Whenever I ask, the response has always been something along the lines of 'it isn't necessary,' an excuse that is feeble at best, farcical at worst, and completely torpedoes the credibility of their own arguments.
Last time the subject came up (elsewhere), I was having quite a friendly discussion with a genuinely nice chap, who also believed there are huge differences in the sonic character of materials in speaker wire. When I asked what he'd compared in order to ascertain this, turned out one was a copper wire; zip-cord style configuration, roughly 11ga. The other was approximately 18ga gold (solid 9 carat gold! Must be nice to have that kind of disposible income...), with fully discrete positive and negative legs deliberately kept well appart. The copper wire was 8ft long, the gold was 15ft. The gold wire was apparantly 'warmer' and 'fuller', with 'a very gentle and smooth top end', while the copper 'had tighter bass', was 'crisper' and 'more illuminated at the top' (I paraphrase slightly, but that's what was remarked, if memory serves).
Now, call me Mr Picky if you will, but methinks the electrical properties of the two wires were just a trifle different, ne cest pas? And that the differences mentioned might well have had something to do with the far greater voltage drop & inductance in the gold based wires affecting the behaviour of the speakers and amplifier they were used with (the first of which was an evil 2ohm load & the latter one of those high-priced jobs that goes a-whoring after output impedances even lower than the lengths a Politician will stoop to)? He was such a nice guy I decided not to mention this to him, although it might have been kinder to (certainly to his wallet). Perhaps there are differences in the sound of conductor materials, although given that they don't actually produce sound, I'm at a loss to figure out how, and am forced to remain a cynic on the subject until someone is actually brave enough to demonstrate it in a manner a rational being who knows nothing about the subject could swallow without gagging.
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Hmm...saying that silver is "brighter" is quite simplistic. Actually silver can also sound bold and dark, rather than thin and bright. It depends on how it's actually made into wire 🙂
What I can comfortably say is that wherever there's silver in the signal/return conductors of a cable, you hear it... even in digital interconnects (just as much as in analog cables).
How you hear it... well, it's complicated to explain... better try for yourself.
For me, silver sounds obsequious, purple, and clairvoyant, whereas copper tends toward refulgent and Homeric. I am looking forward to room-temperature superconducting ceramic, which I can predict will cause the music to seem predatory and virulent, while at the same time somehow nematic.
Andrea, dont take this wrong but how the hell is silver IC's in the digital domain gonna affect sound quality😕
Any interconnect in the digital domain should be as transparent as possible be it between chips on a circuit board, between circuit boards, or between pieces of equipement, the effects cables have are on the rise time of signals, overshoot etc all very well documented problems in signal integrity and all accounted for is the design of digital equipement.
Any interconnect in the digital domain should be as transparent as possible be it between chips on a circuit board, between circuit boards, or between pieces of equipement, the effects cables have are on the rise time of signals, overshoot etc all very well documented problems in signal integrity and all accounted for is the design of digital equipement.
They "should", in fact. Real things are a bit different, since everything has its unique character...even metals. Sorry if this conflicts with your beliefs, but digital cables sound different, and it depends on their conductors too. Silver / silver plated copper / plain copper can be clearly heard in digital cables.
Your evidence to support this? As in 'evidence', not 'opinion.' I respect the latter, but opinion is not evidence.
ROTFLMAO! 😀 (mental memo: must work on my vocabulary...)
Or the rustling of notes...
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I've been working & I think I have it! Gold sounds radient, with a blush of ardor suffucing the midband and sibylline layering of textures. Oh yes.
ROTFLMAO! 😀 (mental memo: must work on my vocabulary...)
Or the rustling of notes...
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I've been working & I think I have it! Gold sounds radient, with a blush of ardor suffucing the midband and sibylline layering of textures. Oh yes.
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"Suffusing." "Radiant." Now I'm going to have to degauss my hard disk lest the misspelling cause my stored music to sound more crepuscular and arrhythmic.
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