Quite. I thought it might add to the irony. 🙄
Sorry about the HDD; didn't think of that. Can't have your music rendered tenebrous.
Sorry about the HDD; didn't think of that. Can't have your music rendered tenebrous.
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Won't help you, it's the IDE cables you have to worry about.
Silver IDE cables anyone? 😀
Magura 🙂
Silver IDE cables anyone? 😀
Magura 🙂
SY: Superconducting ceramic ? Mainly with some cryogenic amp and CD... 🙂
But seriously: I never heard about comparison, when both cables are quite the same ( electrically and mechanically ), which signify with QUITE THE SAME RESISTANCE AND IMPEDANCE. Because silver is more expensive, tested silver cable is probably thinner, with higher resistance and it is audible...
But seriously: I never heard about comparison, when both cables are quite the same ( electrically and mechanically ), which signify with QUITE THE SAME RESISTANCE AND IMPEDANCE. Because silver is more expensive, tested silver cable is probably thinner, with higher resistance and it is audible...
Depends on how much more resistance and how that scales to the circuit impedances, no?
Individual experience of things is not "opinion".
Opinion is an abstraction; such as much scientific generalization 🙂
Blind faith is all about something you cannot see (hear)...
Of course, when you shouldn't hear what I'm talking about, you'd be entitled to make it your own truth... I would have nothing to criticize. But please first try then judge someone else's findings 🙂
My notice was address to SY, not to you, Andrea...about you scientific thinking I have no doubt...😎
I personally am also interested in the precise effects of cables and interconnects on a system, however strictly from a scientific point of view. I've tried reading through the massive cable-thread in the fullrange forum, however there's far too much pseudo-mystic bull in there, makes it quite hard to find the actual facts.
I've seen some threads saying "this is the best sounding *cap/wire/opamp/resistor* ever, and this is my opionion - if you believe in science just stay the hell out of this thread".
It's certainly not my place to say these people shouldn't be allowed to discuss their opinion, just like it's not my place to say people who believe in creationism shouldn't be allowed to talk about it.
But I do think to be fair there should also be some kind of a counter-thread, where such things are discussed purely from a scientific point of view. Numbers, measurement, simulations, calculations, formulae, and scientific discussion of all that. And no talking about "this resistor makes my Dire Straits album sound more blueish-purple".
Surely, even from a scientific point of view, everything has an effect on the system, the question is just how small.
Does anybody else here think a place for such discussions would be justified? I'd start the thread myself, but I'm not sure how kindly moderators would react to another thread about cables/caps/etc (which is a potential melting pot for flamewars), nor do I have the necessary information, experience and engineering skills to make a nice starting post with some useful information.
I've seen some threads saying "this is the best sounding *cap/wire/opamp/resistor* ever, and this is my opionion - if you believe in science just stay the hell out of this thread".
It's certainly not my place to say these people shouldn't be allowed to discuss their opinion, just like it's not my place to say people who believe in creationism shouldn't be allowed to talk about it.
But I do think to be fair there should also be some kind of a counter-thread, where such things are discussed purely from a scientific point of view. Numbers, measurement, simulations, calculations, formulae, and scientific discussion of all that. And no talking about "this resistor makes my Dire Straits album sound more blueish-purple".
Surely, even from a scientific point of view, everything has an effect on the system, the question is just how small.
Does anybody else here think a place for such discussions would be justified? I'd start the thread myself, but I'm not sure how kindly moderators would react to another thread about cables/caps/etc (which is a potential melting pot for flamewars), nor do I have the necessary information, experience and engineering skills to make a nice starting post with some useful information.
Though it's admittedly tough to find from time to time, there has been a reasonable amount of measurement and simulation discussed in this (and a few related) threads.
But if you want to start a separate thread on (say) "measurements and modeling of cable and interconnect effects" and set an example by not commenting on audibility or lack thereof but keeping strictly to the topic, I think it could be a useful one-stop reference source for people to find mud to fling and data to mine for use in the more "anything goes" threads.
But if you want to start a separate thread on (say) "measurements and modeling of cable and interconnect effects" and set an example by not commenting on audibility or lack thereof but keeping strictly to the topic, I think it could be a useful one-stop reference source for people to find mud to fling and data to mine for use in the more "anything goes" threads.
Yes it is. Your opinion is that different conductor materials sound different, and you base this conclusion upon evidence. In this case, apparently, the evidence is your 'individual experience.'
However, it would appear that this 'individual experience' has never entailed comparing wires with only a single variable changed (you know, so you actually know there is only one possible cause for any changes that might or might not occur, rather than them being the result of any one of a number of possibilities or combinations thereof). Nor have these results been compared against basic electrical measurements to ensure that any alterations in the sound are not very easily demonstrated to be caused by the basic LCR properties of the wire affecting the behaviour of the components they connect in well known & understood ways. Therefore, I fear that your 'individual experience', as described, does not appear to be providing you with sufficient evidence to draw such conclusions (or 'opinion' if you prefer). It is certainly not enough to sway many people who are curious about the subject to a similar way of thinking. Indeed, I suspect you are damaging the credibility of those who share your view (that different conductor materials possess an inherent 'sound' in some way) because you are refusing to support your statements with any form of credible evidence.
Come on guys; if you think conductor materials do sound different, and you want to be helpful, why don't you actually try to prove it? But don't bother claiming that such matters do not require proof. Nor is it any use trying to say that the most basic of investigative methods (having the common sense to only change one thing at a time, as every 10 year old primary schoolboy / schoolgirl will instantly point out) is somehow invalid for unspecified reasons.
"Yes, I'm talking to you, Constable Oats. That ball you got Mr. Pinker out with was a No-Ball."
"Oh, Miss? Why was that?"
"Because it was!"
Sound familiar?
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Sy, Scottmoose, an impresive use of adjectives, you could moonlight writing reviews for esoteric audio improving gizmos😀
Andrea, regarding digital interconnects having any influence on sound (they dont) my belief are from experience with my current job, and the people I work with, a job that just happens to cover the topics we are discussing, though for a different application than home audio. They are not just anecdotal but based on every day experiences with the problems of getting signals from one place to another both digital, analogue and rf. I would presume also that if you are going from a transport, computer to a DAC then the optical link would sound different from a coaxial link.
All I want is some explanation as to why Ag and Cu sound different in the digital domain, and if they do it means that one or the other is not functioning correctly, as they only way they can alter the sound is by altering the bit pattern, they certinally cant add warmth or brightness to a signal. And if they are altering the bit pattern it would be in a random fashion so would not provide a repeatable alteration to the sound IMO.
Andrea, regarding digital interconnects having any influence on sound (they dont) my belief are from experience with my current job, and the people I work with, a job that just happens to cover the topics we are discussing, though for a different application than home audio. They are not just anecdotal but based on every day experiences with the problems of getting signals from one place to another both digital, analogue and rf. I would presume also that if you are going from a transport, computer to a DAC then the optical link would sound different from a coaxial link.
All I want is some explanation as to why Ag and Cu sound different in the digital domain, and if they do it means that one or the other is not functioning correctly, as they only way they can alter the sound is by altering the bit pattern, they certinally cant add warmth or brightness to a signal. And if they are altering the bit pattern it would be in a random fashion so would not provide a repeatable alteration to the sound IMO.
Marce, you miss the obvious difference between silver and copper in a digital interconnect.
Digital signal through copper: 1o1o1o1o
Same digital signal through silver: 10101010
Magura 🙂
Digital signal through copper: 1o1o1o1o
Same digital signal through silver: 10101010
Magura 🙂
You are right, I did see at least one fairly extensive test linked while going through the thread, but it would take quite some time to find again, between all the "These cables sound more onion-y and these sound wide and green and semi-opaque".
Maybe one day when I have nothing else to do, I will go through some of the threads and try to find some useful information to start a thread with.
It irks me to no end when there are threads with a starting post like "Let's use this thread to talk about the W4460B024BC", and then somebody else answers "well, I much prefer the silver version", and I have absoutely no clue what they are talking about. It's considered good form in most other forums to provide some information on what you want to talk about, so a basis for discussion can be formed, and it is immediately clear what the discussion is actually about.
In any case, maybe I'll do it, perhaps someone else will.
For drawing such a conclusion you have first to show that the premise(s) were right, as otherwise the conclusion will be wrong (in most cases).
If we are talking about the connection of a transport to a dac (which does realtime conversion to analog domain), why should an alteration of the bit pattern be the only way of introducing a sound difference?
Wishes
P.S. I don´t want to be offensive, but the validation of premises is absolutely mandatory for any scientific reasoning.
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don't get it
That's fine as an anecdotal observation and opinion by you and (only) for you. My experience has been just the opposite, but I don't preach it as truth and deny the need to prove it if someone asks.
Your method risks missing confounding ( meaning even though you think "only changing from copper to silver makes a difference", there might still be other things affecting the sound; that's the whole point of multifactorial experiments) There's no way you can be sure your method excludes these possibilities (such as your expectation, or the temperature in the rrom, or atmospheric pressure effects on your hearing, or variations in the levels of CO2 in the room, to name a few)
a simple example:
Confounding Variables
That's fine as an anecdotal observation and opinion by you and (only) for you. My experience has been just the opposite, but I don't preach it as truth and deny the need to prove it if someone asks.
Your method risks missing confounding ( meaning even though you think "only changing from copper to silver makes a difference", there might still be other things affecting the sound; that's the whole point of multifactorial experiments) There's no way you can be sure your method excludes these possibilities (such as your expectation, or the temperature in the rrom, or atmospheric pressure effects on your hearing, or variations in the levels of CO2 in the room, to name a few)
a simple example:
Confounding Variables
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