Some would say "the best cabinet is no cabinet", but that is not very applicable here 😉
So you never ask yourself what the impact is of the room and the location of the speakers, the location of the recording microphone, the quality of it and of the recording itself, let alone the quality of your playback gear (although that could be the constant factor here…).
In short, no, audio recordings of speaker systems in rooms don’t say that much, unless you’d succeed in replicating recording conditions the full 100%.
In short, no, audio recordings of speaker systems in rooms don’t say that much, unless you’d succeed in replicating recording conditions the full 100%.
There are succesful exemples of binaural recordings of speaker systems, that are useful to get an idea of how that system plays in a room. With a good headphone playback, this can be entertaining. Personally, I would like to hear such recordings. You find some on youtube.
Surely it is not that simple. I have no recording experience whatsoever... If I tried to record the sound of a single musician in my living room, how likely would I succeed in fully capturing the sound quality? Very unlikely. It seems to me that capturing the sound of a loudspeaker is not that much different than capturing the sound of an instrument...
I have seen youtube videos of people who record their stereo speakers with a smartphone... Honestly, all speakers sound the same when recorded like this.
I have done recordings of my stereo speakers playing music, and result is STRANGE. Same with eg. violin and most of all piano, which sounds really awful. I have used both mobile phone (mic separation 10cm) and a ZOOM digital recorder with AB mics (separation about 3cm). Frequency balance is rather good but room sound is very different from what I perceive, decay and reverb is totally different.
Binaural recording with a dummy head, listened with good headpones should be better, but there are not many people who can do those. And remember that 99,99% of headphones deviate much from ideal response curve and have lots of resonances.
So, I warn everybody to make any kind of conclusions from video clips!
Binaural recording with a dummy head, listened with good headpones should be better, but there are not many people who can do those. And remember that 99,99% of headphones deviate much from ideal response curve and have lots of resonances.
So, I warn everybody to make any kind of conclusions from video clips!
Yes you would need to do binaural recordings and listen to this with a headphone. Than you need to put all the different speakers in the same room as you mostly hear the room.
Or go more expensive measure the estimates in room response with a klippel near field scanner and convolve that with music. This way you could hear the speaker as estimated in a "normal" room. Erins Audiocorner YouTube channel started doing that.
Or go more expensive measure the estimates in room response with a klippel near field scanner and convolve that with music. This way you could hear the speaker as estimated in a "normal" room. Erins Audiocorner YouTube channel started doing that.
I understand that this discussion is a bit out of topic, but I consider the room as a part of the system that deserves treatment when neccesary, just like people buy expensive power cords or other tweaking gadgets. So if a speaker sounds good in a room, and I expect that the audiophile cares about which speaker he/she purchases in regards to the room they have to play in, and there is a good binaural recording that captures that quality, then it is fine and you will hear what a speaker is more or less capable of in that room. Also in different rooms, the same speaker may sound different but that does not mean that it is a bad speaker, furthermore if the same speaker is recorded in different rooms and still manage to sound good (with the proper recording technique, i.m.o. binaural from the listening seat), that is a good sign.. Speakers are not build for specific rooms in general.
When you go to a hifi show, all kinds of gear is played in a variety of rooms, good or bad. That does not withhold people from attending shows. I do have binaural recordings that "to my ears" capture the essence of my system (and room), it is very well recognizable that those are my speakers and the room did not sound strange -but it is a heavily treated room. I have posted some here once, but not many listeners. some liked it though.
When recorded through a smartphone or regular microphones, the recordings may be good or bad, probably bad. Of course you do not buy expensive equipment only by listening to such recordings of systems. If you do you are not an "audiophile" whatever that means.
For the $700 per passive component, assume min 4 components per channel and you are at $5,600... I would suggest one of the following two options is a far superior solution:
(1) $5,000 to $6,000 budget - Commission a boutique DSP electronics manufacturer to build a very high spec motherboard running a stable Linux OS and use it to run a combination of software based crossover / room / speaker measurement options. There are lots to choose from and a good selection of audio DSP experts to consult with. All in it will take approx 4 months to consult, research and build an "end game" solution.
(2) $10,000 to $12,000 budget - Buy a https://linea-research.co.uk/asc48/ which is an outstanding stand alone DSP solution and pay an electrical engineer to customise it as follows:
Replace the low grade power supply with a dual battery supply, ie one battery runs the unit whilst the other charges and then switch to recharge.
Re case the boards in a rigid, EMF treated case using 15mm thick black acrylic lined with "Stealth Bomber" tech EMF scattering material, this results in a drop dead gorgeous "Monolith" enclosure (include an OLED display) immune to all electrical interference and resonance free... Mount it on 6mm thick Sorbothane pads on a heavy granite shelf.
The batteries are installed in the base of the new case in their own 3mm thick alloy internal box and sub-mounted on their own Sorbothane pads.
Only use the digital in digital out... Use your own high end DACS and A to D convertors running on modular plug in (upgradable) daughter boards. I would use AKM or R to R based boards, lots of off the shelf or OEM options.
Add a Raspberry Pi or small mother board of your choice to run your room measurement software and music / movies media playback and a tray of Micro SD cards for 5 to 10 Terabyte's of music storage.
All in all this combination is as good as it gets with "off grid" immunity purist power supply for your entire digital source / DSP / storage and replay and all contained in an EMF proof, acoustically dead, non resonant enclosure.
The key is spending the research time to find the right DSP consultants and electronics manufacturing company.
(1) $5,000 to $6,000 budget - Commission a boutique DSP electronics manufacturer to build a very high spec motherboard running a stable Linux OS and use it to run a combination of software based crossover / room / speaker measurement options. There are lots to choose from and a good selection of audio DSP experts to consult with. All in it will take approx 4 months to consult, research and build an "end game" solution.
(2) $10,000 to $12,000 budget - Buy a https://linea-research.co.uk/asc48/ which is an outstanding stand alone DSP solution and pay an electrical engineer to customise it as follows:
Replace the low grade power supply with a dual battery supply, ie one battery runs the unit whilst the other charges and then switch to recharge.
Re case the boards in a rigid, EMF treated case using 15mm thick black acrylic lined with "Stealth Bomber" tech EMF scattering material, this results in a drop dead gorgeous "Monolith" enclosure (include an OLED display) immune to all electrical interference and resonance free... Mount it on 6mm thick Sorbothane pads on a heavy granite shelf.
The batteries are installed in the base of the new case in their own 3mm thick alloy internal box and sub-mounted on their own Sorbothane pads.
Only use the digital in digital out... Use your own high end DACS and A to D convertors running on modular plug in (upgradable) daughter boards. I would use AKM or R to R based boards, lots of off the shelf or OEM options.
Add a Raspberry Pi or small mother board of your choice to run your room measurement software and music / movies media playback and a tray of Micro SD cards for 5 to 10 Terabyte's of music storage.
All in all this combination is as good as it gets with "off grid" immunity purist power supply for your entire digital source / DSP / storage and replay and all contained in an EMF proof, acoustically dead, non resonant enclosure.
The key is spending the research time to find the right DSP consultants and electronics manufacturing company.
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Effect of expensive parts is mostly between the ears, and no DSP can substitute a 700$ silver capacitor if a person is convinced the cap is the ticket. If 700$ and 7$ cap measure the same, I'm quite sure all audible difference happens between the ears due to what ever biasing affecting auditory system and thus perceived sound. Perhaps there is some difference, but it's likely so marginal (diminishing returns) the person could change sound more just by leaning forward or back few centimeters on their listening chair. I'm quite sure DSP system with some passive parts to manipulate impedance in series with transducer is the way to get top measured performance and promise for top perceived performance as well, limiting factor is the person tuning the system and inputs they use and been exposed to.
So would be difference between any two fully functioning modern DSP or DAC with very low noise for example, their audible differences for same transfer function ought to be miniscule and 99% of perceived difference would be due to person auditory system processing it according to price tag and flashy lights, and less so due to what signal enters the ear canal. Utility and flexibility make true difference though!
Everyone are entitled to have their own perspective on this stuff, if someone perceives something better for what ever reason, then that's it what it is and I'm glad they do. I guess better sound could be attributed to the capacitor, even though the capacitor doesn't directly affect sound it indirectly affects through the auditory system biasing. It's not my dollars that are spent so, what ever, doesn't make much sense to me though. Buy a bag of ten to get closely matched acoustic response on both left and right to really make good sound. Or just use DSP to match sides perfectly. Rant over. 😀
So would be difference between any two fully functioning modern DSP or DAC with very low noise for example, their audible differences for same transfer function ought to be miniscule and 99% of perceived difference would be due to person auditory system processing it according to price tag and flashy lights, and less so due to what signal enters the ear canal. Utility and flexibility make true difference though!
Everyone are entitled to have their own perspective on this stuff, if someone perceives something better for what ever reason, then that's it what it is and I'm glad they do. I guess better sound could be attributed to the capacitor, even though the capacitor doesn't directly affect sound it indirectly affects through the auditory system biasing. It's not my dollars that are spent so, what ever, doesn't make much sense to me though. Buy a bag of ten to get closely matched acoustic response on both left and right to really make good sound. Or just use DSP to match sides perfectly. Rant over. 😀
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Basis for the rant: I like to think that if a person, like myself, was in a hifi expo and entered into a room that had stereo system with ideal sound, but the system was invisible, behind a curtain or something. Would I notice it's the best sound I've ever heard and best I'll ever hear? or would I turn around an head to the next room with more people and brands golden cables and titties visible to attract attention by every possible means?
If one is really into perceived sound, it should not matter what the system is made of, or what it consists of, what it looks like or is it from a trendy brand, right? and everyone should easily spot the room has the best sound in the show, right? Would you? If answer is no, then one could reason that some other things are more important than the sound in which case the sound doesn't actually matter, only what one is interested in like a brand or the titties.
I think problem from tinkering with hifi equipment is that people forget how big of a deal auditory system is in the equation, which then leads to wrong conclusions why something sounds good, attributing aspects of sound to the equipment for example, when the difference is more likely in the auditory system due to diffence in positioning in the room, or any bias in our minds.
For example our DIY equipment sounds the best to most of us, not because it's the best but because it took effort and dedication to finnish so it must be, right? Another, one could perceive a good sound in a hifi expo, and attribute it to a brand name when it might have been just the person ability to setup the system better than someone else on another room! After all, quite many rooms I visited in an expo the speakers were quite alike and placements were quite haphazard, no ideal sounds in any room I think. Golden binding posts and holy rocks placed on top of amplifiers, led lights on turntable plinths, and other special sauce do not effect on my bias, or do they? I do realize the rooms have compromises, a lot of people needs to fit in, acoustics is what they happen to be and so on. After all most of the potential customer arent' likely interested in the sound but the brand, because the system is not behind a curtain. Anyway, just another perspective on things 🙂
If one is really into perceived sound, it should not matter what the system is made of, or what it consists of, what it looks like or is it from a trendy brand, right? and everyone should easily spot the room has the best sound in the show, right? Would you? If answer is no, then one could reason that some other things are more important than the sound in which case the sound doesn't actually matter, only what one is interested in like a brand or the titties.
I think problem from tinkering with hifi equipment is that people forget how big of a deal auditory system is in the equation, which then leads to wrong conclusions why something sounds good, attributing aspects of sound to the equipment for example, when the difference is more likely in the auditory system due to diffence in positioning in the room, or any bias in our minds.
For example our DIY equipment sounds the best to most of us, not because it's the best but because it took effort and dedication to finnish so it must be, right? Another, one could perceive a good sound in a hifi expo, and attribute it to a brand name when it might have been just the person ability to setup the system better than someone else on another room! After all, quite many rooms I visited in an expo the speakers were quite alike and placements were quite haphazard, no ideal sounds in any room I think. Golden binding posts and holy rocks placed on top of amplifiers, led lights on turntable plinths, and other special sauce do not effect on my bias, or do they? I do realize the rooms have compromises, a lot of people needs to fit in, acoustics is what they happen to be and so on. After all most of the potential customer arent' likely interested in the sound but the brand, because the system is not behind a curtain. Anyway, just another perspective on things 🙂
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With passive xo, most likely the 1-3 first versions can use medium grade components. Then after a few months of listening when everything seems to be ok, make final xo with as high "quality" as you like. And remember to measure parameters of each proto and final component, don't trust the values printed on them!
Some capacitor opinions here, old but true? https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Some capacitor opinions here, old but true? https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Yeah!
It's very important to have nice aesthetics, I bet this is the most important and dominating thing for most folk considering acquiring a playback system. It's important to have them practical for a middle class situation like I'm in for example, that the speakers do not prevent kids playing and that everyone in the house stays happy as we all share the space and need to get along. A wealthy person might not have time to actually listen that much as they are being busy being wealthy so a system might be just a decoration. Playback system might be a tool in an occupation with only requirement to be able to get a job done. There is so many things that are important, other than the sound.
After all sound isn't that easy to comprehend as we cannot touch or smell or see it, just hear it, perhaps feel it. As long as sound isn't obviously broken brain gets used to it and it'll sound just fine, no matter if it isn't ideal so a lot of the time sound quality just isn't the right thing to optimize for. When it is the most importantes, one should take this stuff seriously though, really dig into what actually matters and why, how to make sure auditory system gets aligned what one wants to perceive, and prepare to sacrifice anything else in trade-offs to reach anything necessary. One could sacrifice on cost and complexity and opt for a DSP system for example. First and foremost prepare to throw convictions to trash because they likely prevent ever reaching the top sound for a given context, perhaps there is no need for a capacitor in the first place. Go back to first principles to really make sure the whole chain from tech to room to auditory system, everything before perception, is aligned toward what you are looking for.
So, my rants might feel elitistic or unjustified 😀 But since it's a forum I'm posting this stuff for fun and preserve rights to change my mind at any point in time, I'm writing to provide another angle to a subject. Main motivation to write such stuff is is writing helps thinking, and I'm relying a lot of thinking because my budget and time is limited, it's a hobby, and I'm a hobbyist so everyone read my posts as you wish. But I also want to raise awareness on importance of context, in general. A 700$ cap might be very important on one context and not so important in another, so it could be perfect choice for one while bad for another, but both could still have best system in their particular context. Great power in DIY is that one can pursue what ever is important, tailor fit, and only problem is to understand what's important in the context to be able to.
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