Budget Classic 3-way Discussion Thread

[diyiggy]

I agree too much resolution is not always equal to the good sound, I had for instance a Kef 104/2 that was less transparent than my more modern loudspeaker, but was more nice on the listen and forgett attributes (less studio ultra precise sound). I advocated the BC25TG because of that if the crossover was high enough.
A SB26STAC will give more a sorta of ribbon sound on the side of the ligth (too much ?) a SB26ADC metal will be more smooth to the ear despite being aluminum...

 

[Zvu]

In what configuration have you listened SB26STAC ?

I bought a pair based on ScottG impressions. He described the sound so sweetly to me that i just had to buy it to try it myself : )

Hope you're all good and well @ScottG

 

[diyiggy]

Cut off 3k, mid nomex paper. No resistor in serie, sligthy recessed.
A very informative tweeter, sweet... not the 2 I had. But not a bad tweeter, a bang for the buck at the opposit. More modern sound that lsoe laid back ScanSpeak sound /95000, 3/4" class. But certainly better than the Vifa remade SS has.
Same sorry with Scott 🙂

Edit : there is a chance your Morel iirc to be sweeter, more colorfull.

 

[tktran303]

I know, from non scientific experience, that a a lot of speaker sound better if they are close to a wall. I never understood the view that speakers need to be freestanding in a room, with a distance from all walls. I do know the effect of those, but you can play with that and make your speaker react with the wall in a controlled way. And certainly today where dsp is availeble you can tune your speaker to a specific position and use the wall and corner loading. The myth that speakers are neutral when they are away of the wall is not something i believe in, a speaker always react to the space where it's in, and you better use that in the config. I do that with my main setup also as my listening/living room is small.

And as (certainly in Europe) space is premium and limiited in most cases, people put speakers against a wall, because that is the only space they have in by far most cases. The original Iintons that my dad has are hanging from the wall, almost against the ceiling and slightly tilted down. My mom (parents are divorced) set her 1990's Technics speakers on a stand against the wall in her condo. And so does almost everybody that i know down here. I think we need to take that in account also.

Yes It depends on the size of your room and where one may place them.

Here's the house I lived in 10 years ago:



For reference that is a 55" diagonal OLED TV and amplifier standard 19" wide unit.
So the room is 6m wide (20ft) (what you see) and 9m (30ft) deep and ceiling 3.2m (11ft) tall.

That is the Statements II by @jholtz and Curt Campbell;
designed for "Optimum from the wall behind the speakers is 18" - 36". The next sensitivity is 87-88dB / 2.83V

I have a friend who lives an apartment in Tokyo; and there is just no way he would have a floor stander far away from walls. I also lived in city condominium in Vancouver that was 800 square feet, so I know first hand why soundbars and and 5.25” woofers are called subwoofers - better than TV speakers but not enough to disturb your neighbours.

We may need to NOT do a "full baffle step compensation" for well away from walls, and instead design for a "reduced baffle step compensation" so that a typical user may put it close to the front wall. Or as @Juhazi suggest.

I don't think that suspect it's not a deal breaker- the DIY enthusiast will play around with it and accept what (s)he has/hasn't got...

 

[Zvu]

.... there is a chance your Morel iirc to be sweeter, more colorfull.

Morel had one of a kind sound but only after i pulled ferrofluid out of it.

 

[A4eaudio]

I built a mock-up cabinet out of scrap mdf, some Ram Board (cardboard floor covering for construction work) and some melamine cabinet board for the baffle. But, somehow, of the dozens of router bits I have, I didn't have a 1/4-inch spiral cutting bit. So I'll take some measurements of some 4 and 5 inch midranges and tweeters that I have on hand by the end of the weekend, in a box that is pretty close to what we will end up with. (This isn't a sealed box to take real measurements in, just something to get an idea of how some midranges and tweeters measure on- and off-axis on a 16" wide baffle)

 

[A4eaudio]

For discussion...looking at the SPL curve, impedance, and TS parameters of the Scanspeak 15W/8434G00 and the SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-8, what are the pros and cons of each? While the SB15MFC is $16 cheaper than the Scanspeak in the US, they are almost exactly the same price in the US. The SB15MFC may take an extra inductor on the low-pass to bring down the broader and higher cone breakup.

15W/8434G00

SB15MFC30-8

 

[AllenB]

The 0-30-60 measurement scheme is a mixed bag. Sometimes it shows important things but sometimes it's course enough to leave information out. This can give the impression of better performance than reality.

 

[tktran303]

All SB15/17 share the same 100mm diameter magnet with the raised copper cap
(in SB literature “extended copper sleeve on pole piece for low inductance and low distortion”)

Here is an example of a SB17NAC to see the copper cap:




This is responsible for the lower voice coil inductance, lower H3 and H5 in the midrange than one without the copper cap. The clue is in the extended and flat impedance curve all the way to 20KHz:

From SBA website's datasheet​

The bottom blue trace extends to 20KHz, and is well under 13 ohms there.


Compare that to the 15W/8534G00, which at 20Khz is above 32 ohms, as shown in @A4eaudio previous post.

The 15W/8534G00 has a single alu ring, acting as a demodulation ring.

To get a Scan-Speak Discover product with a copper cap, a user has to step up to a driver with the Symmetric Drive motor. OEM can order a custom Discover product with a copper cap, but that needs a considerable MOQ.
Reference: Decoding Scan-Speak model numbers

An alu ring as a demodulation device , will have higher H3 than H2, particularly around the 300Hz-1000Hz range, on a static exponential sine sweep. As higher voltage drive levels on an sine sweep, H2 will rise faster than H3. And thus the relative proportion will change such that H2 and H3 are at similar amounts.

A driver with a copper cap will tend to show H3 lower than H2 AT ALL drive levels.
Purifi, Scan-Speak, SBA Satori, Wavecor "Balanced Drive", new SEAS

How this sounds with real music would be interesting. If you get a chance to do an FSAF measurement, it will certainly be illuminating- and somewhere all participants on this thread will be able to listen and compare for themselves.

 

[Zvu]

I've used SB17NRX (with SB29RDC tweter) that also shares the copper cap motor with rest of the SB15/SB17 line.

Now i would't know about MFC series (plastic cone, never sounded good to me) but midrange from SB17NRX is just not transparent as one would expect.

On the other hand, i have used Scan Speak 15W4434 (with RAAL 64-10 tweeter). It's mids are amazing.

 

[A4eaudio]

@Zvu - do you still happen to have any measurements of the 15W4434, either on- and off-axis and/or distortion?

I have the SB15MFC30 8-ohm that I will measure and HiFiCompass has measured the 4-ohm version. But I haven't found any measurements of the Scanspeak.

 

[augerpro]

I will second Zvu's preference for the ScanSpeak vs the SB. The SB is better if you are building a small 2-way because it has more solid bass and can go louder before audible distress in that format. But they can be a bit recessed compared to other competitors in this price range. For a dedicated mid the ScanSpeak Discovery line are very good, clear, open. They get stressed easier than competitors but I don't think that will be an issue as a mid.

 

[kapelli]

For discussion...looking at the SPL curve, impedance, and TS parameters of the Scanspeak 15W/8434G00 and the SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-8, what are the pros and cons of each?

SB measures significantly better.

 

[motokok]

@Zvu - do you still happen to have any measurements of the 15W4434, either on- and off-axis and/or distortion?

I have the SB15MFC30 8-ohm that I will measure and HiFiCompass has measured the 4-ohm version. But I haven't found any measurements of the Scanspeak.

dibirama measurements available to view (download not free anymore, unfortunately)
https://www.dibirama.it/home-page/m...-15w-4434g00-mid-woofer-5-4-ohm-120-wmax.html

they also have some NRX and MFC measurements; MFC shows a ripple despite the impedance plot; still marmite.

 

[Zvu]

@Zvu - do you still happen to have any measurements of the 15W4434, either on- and off-axis and/or distortion?

I have the SB15MFC30 8-ohm that I will measure and HiFiCompass has measured the 4-ohm version. But I haven't found any measurements of the Scanspeak.

It was a long time ago. I even had some .frd amd .zma files for simulators but that was ages ago. All gone now.

Here's my post from january 2018 with crossover sim done in LspCAD - pre VituixCAD time. Even then those measurements were couple of years old.
And yes, now i see that i worked with 15W8434 - the 8 ohm version. Great mids nevertheless.

 

[Zvu]

SB measures significantly better.

Are we looking at the same drivers ? SB measures worse in my opinion. It's frequency response has 10dB resonance at breakup and resonance dip at 1500Hz, unlike SS. Scan Speak has much cleaner CSD and even THD looks lower under same conditions (dibirama).

Scan Speak 15W8434

SBacoustics SB15MFC35-8

I linked 8 ohm Scan Speak so things would be comparable. If we could get some higher resolution measurements, such are at Hificimpass, that would be great.

 

[pefpef]

Audiocomponents.nl and soundimport seems the same company since soundimport make the answer.
They can't have the ne149 unless we buy 80% of the 300 they need to buy themselves.
They import for
SPEAKERLAND
SPEAKER & CO
RUMOH
KLARE
RADIO PIET
SOUND IMPORTS
COMPAGNIE ACOUSTIQUE DE BELGIQUE
PINK NOISE
WIL AUDIO
LA MAISON DU HAUT-PARLEUR
AUDIOXCEL
AUDIOHUM
WILMSLOW AUDIO
FALCON ACOUSTICS
HI-FI COLLECTIVE LTD.
WILLYS-HIFI LTD

So probably unavailable also from those vendors.

 

[waxx]

You could try THPL, that is an independent company in France that does not work with Soundimport. But they will have the same problem, that minimum order quantity from Tymphany. They also don't carry that much of the catalogue because of that.

 

[stv]

You could try THPL,

They cleared their tymphany stock (or are still clearing). It doesn't seem they will offer any tymphany products in future.

 

[Draki]

Here is a measurement of SB15 MFC-08, in a 9 L closed box.
Front baffle 20 x 29 cm , radiused vertical edges with r=20 mm
1000 mm measured distance. 0 to 90 deg horizontal. Merged near + far field , baffle-step compensated. No smoothing.