Erin liked the JBL speaker quite a bit so I find it as my main inspiration for our build. Especially to try to surpass in some areas.
I think he liked the Wharfedale even more, but with an 8" woofer I don't think we can really compare it to our build.
One think I find ...amusing??... is that if you posted that CEA2034 image and specs on ASR and didn't say where it came from...just posted that some "new" company came out with a $5,000 pair of speakers with these objective measurements and specs...the consensus would be that it is "trash", with near certainty, regardless that they hadn't heard it. Poor linearity, F3 of only 50Hz with a ported 12" woofer, directivity error at 500Hz, $5000!! Blah, blah, blah.
I think he liked the Wharfedale even more, but with an 8" woofer I don't think we can really compare it to our build.
One think I find ...amusing??... is that if you posted that CEA2034 image and specs on ASR and didn't say where it came from...just posted that some "new" company came out with a $5,000 pair of speakers with these objective measurements and specs...the consensus would be that it is "trash", with near certainty, regardless that they hadn't heard it. Poor linearity, F3 of only 50Hz with a ported 12" woofer, directivity error at 500Hz, $5000!! Blah, blah, blah.
I think there was some missed opportunity with the L100 Mk-II. Even with substandard drivers, I think it should have been possible to get a smoother flatter frequency response, and I bet the JBL drivers are probably quite good drivers. The broad peak at 2k in particular is problematic. It is present in the on axis, ER, and sound power curves, so it would have been correctable with the crossover filter and/or driver selection.
I have confidence our team can do better.
I have confidence our team can do better.
JBL is Harman and that is all about maximum profit from lowest expense. They build their speakers to match a selected audience, typical speaker buyers that will make a purchase after a short listen. So the speakers have to impress and give an impulse for a quick sale. You can not build good speakers for todays average audience and sell it. So JBL is no HIFI brand in an audiophile sense any more. With JBL Hifi speakers you buy a name, not audiophile quality. Harman will exploid the name until it is burned to ash, but not change that course.
With such a project a vented speaker may be a better option, if volume and response curve are matched well. Using the same driver will usually give reduced distortion for an identical SPL. If you tweak a driver in a closed box to get the same bass, it will distort much more, because of the extreme excursion neccessary. So in fact a well done, vented speaker, will sound cleaner than a tweaked closed box.
As volume is not the problem in such a project, vented should be prefered. That is simple speaker physics, I know that those that like simple solutions and talk what they "all say", may not like that. Because of the reduced excursion on the low end, where the port produces the output, such a driver can sound better at the crossover frequency, too. Get the right driver and a vented system wins with a real bass extention. If you want an impressive bass around 80 Hz without real low end, the closed system is your friend.
If you use cheap drivers in a vented cabinet, you get what we are used to see from consumer products.
With such a project a vented speaker may be a better option, if volume and response curve are matched well. Using the same driver will usually give reduced distortion for an identical SPL. If you tweak a driver in a closed box to get the same bass, it will distort much more, because of the extreme excursion neccessary. So in fact a well done, vented speaker, will sound cleaner than a tweaked closed box.
As volume is not the problem in such a project, vented should be prefered. That is simple speaker physics, I know that those that like simple solutions and talk what they "all say", may not like that. Because of the reduced excursion on the low end, where the port produces the output, such a driver can sound better at the crossover frequency, too. Get the right driver and a vented system wins with a real bass extention. If you want an impressive bass around 80 Hz without real low end, the closed system is your friend.
If you use cheap drivers in a vented cabinet, you get what we are used to see from consumer products.
I'm not surprised that some speakers with variable directivity can still sound very pleasant. IMHO this is part of the circle of confusion that still continues. There's just no ITU or IEC standard for directivity in studio monitors or main monitors. Today you can buy big expensive* Dynaudio (or Yamaha) monitors for your big (or project) studio that doesn't not conform to any directivity standard.
Meanwhile you can get more information on directivity from KRK than ATC.
So things ARE getting better, slowly.
What the ASR crew sometimes forget it that CEA2034 makes no mention of sensitivity and as a corollary, dynamic range. Besides, CEA2034A was finalised in 2015, based on research in the 1980s. By definition, by the time it was published, it was already out of date.
Dynamic range should be quantified, using a metric like CTA2034A.
I have long thought about the limitations of CEA2034A, but perhaps @kimmosto has done it better here:
https://kimmosaunisto.net/Misc/speaker_review_feedback.pdf
* M series C3 Mk2
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This is even worse for sound quality. If anyone ever heard a Samsung speaker he sure will agree. On the other hand, I don't think Samsung will use such low quality parts as I found in HK amplifiers for example or even worse, the JBL active subwoofers.
It gets hard to believe in the JBL heritage with these new masters at the steering wheel. Usually differences in nationality don't conserve good traditions of the company which is bought.
JBL and Harman are still operating independent, and their latest speakers do measure good and are well build. I regulary listen to the JBL 4367 and it's a great speaker, the owner had a pair of vintage JBL 4333 before and the 4367 is certainly a serious upgrade.
But if Samsung will keep doing that, that is the question. JBL is a very big and legendaric name in Asia, also in Korea so i don't think they will kill it.
But if Samsung will keep doing that, that is the question. JBL is a very big and legendaric name in Asia, also in Korea so i don't think they will kill it.
I'm waiting for the Peerless SLS 12" to be back in stock. It was listed as expected back in stock for May 2nd for quite a while but the date has been removed and it has been updated as "price may be subject to tariff uncertainty".
I'm trying to get two speakers done for the InDIYana event May 10th and then will turn focus back to this project.
I'm trying to get two speakers done for the InDIYana event May 10th and then will turn focus back to this project.
Have you settled on a ballpark baffle width, volume and ported/sealed for a preliminary look at cabinet design?
In post #1,162 I mention potential cabinet size* - A little bigger that the JBL L100 at 27 (H) x 16.5 (W) x 15 (D) provides 3.0cf gross and 2.70 cf after midrange enclosure and bracing. But there is uncertainty about the T/S parameters of the Peerless 830669 so I'm not going to finalize the size and build a cabinet until I actually have a pair in hand. And THAT is the current hold up.
* I do plan on updating the first post with design goals and links to some of the decision points, but I'm just way behind on some other stuff.
One thing I want to make progress on after May 10th, even if the Peerless woofers aren't available yet, is the midrange enclosure (I'll take T/S measurements and post them) and bracing strategy.
And also, a discussion on whether to offset the tweeter and midrange. I think with the wide baffle, we pretty much have too, but I'd like to have a discussion of the pros and cons as I think that would be useful in general and not specific to this project.
* I do plan on updating the first post with design goals and links to some of the decision points, but I'm just way behind on some other stuff.
One thing I want to make progress on after May 10th, even if the Peerless woofers aren't available yet, is the midrange enclosure (I'll take T/S measurements and post them) and bracing strategy.
And also, a discussion on whether to offset the tweeter and midrange. I think with the wide baffle, we pretty much have too, but I'd like to have a discussion of the pros and cons as I think that would be useful in general and not specific to this project.
FWIW, I just completed a 2-way "budget" monkey-box shaped/inspired system for a local project. This discussion was helpful to sort out & eliminate various options. (But if this post seems too OT, I'm sure mods will sort it out...)
My need was for 40~20kHz JBL-ish speakers with neutral voicing that could play quite loudly, adaptable to different rooms/settings, and not expensive.
I opted for 2-way with miniDSP for the DSP/PEQ flexibility & SB Audience pro drivers, including ROSSO-44CDN-PK CD with 600Hz B52 PHRN 10x14" 90x60 horns (long discontinued, AFAIK). Total driver parts retailed just under CA$1000. CA$370 for 2x4HD, $140 for a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" Chinese BB (quite nice). So altogether ~CA$1500 + taxes.
Early days yet, measurements not sorted out or completed...
SB Audience Nero-12MWN700D 12" mid-bass driver was originally going to go in a 1.6 cf box, but the WinISD sims looked better in a 2cf (60 liter) 44Hz port box, and the end users liked the bigger baffle face, so... I can report this Nero woofer has good bass extension & snap down to just below 40Hz and smooth response up to just past 1khz. With +10 dB shelf at 80hz, Q=1, I didn't expect the quality of bass I'm getting. Steep LR8 filter at 30Hz to stop any low frequency overload with the modest 7.3mm Xmax -- tho damage doesn't hit till 18mm. With 150W/ch class-D, the speakers play very loudly without complaint; doesn't mind the bass boost at all. I'm crossing at 800Hz where the woofer directivity is barely narrowing. The horn/CD has no trouble down to 800Hz, no audible increase in distortion/harshness to well over 100 dB SPL. (Mind you, it's 109 dB/W sensitivity, and there's an L-pad to drop it down ~12 dB)
Thumbs up in an audition with end users yesterday. Even my wife says they sounds good. 😎
I'm pleased; they sound better than I expected them to.
There's a move afoot to apply JBL blue to the baffle + clearcoat the rest.
My need was for 40~20kHz JBL-ish speakers with neutral voicing that could play quite loudly, adaptable to different rooms/settings, and not expensive.
I opted for 2-way with miniDSP for the DSP/PEQ flexibility & SB Audience pro drivers, including ROSSO-44CDN-PK CD with 600Hz B52 PHRN 10x14" 90x60 horns (long discontinued, AFAIK). Total driver parts retailed just under CA$1000. CA$370 for 2x4HD, $140 for a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" Chinese BB (quite nice). So altogether ~CA$1500 + taxes.
Early days yet, measurements not sorted out or completed...
SB Audience Nero-12MWN700D 12" mid-bass driver was originally going to go in a 1.6 cf box, but the WinISD sims looked better in a 2cf (60 liter) 44Hz port box, and the end users liked the bigger baffle face, so... I can report this Nero woofer has good bass extension & snap down to just below 40Hz and smooth response up to just past 1khz. With +10 dB shelf at 80hz, Q=1, I didn't expect the quality of bass I'm getting. Steep LR8 filter at 30Hz to stop any low frequency overload with the modest 7.3mm Xmax -- tho damage doesn't hit till 18mm. With 150W/ch class-D, the speakers play very loudly without complaint; doesn't mind the bass boost at all. I'm crossing at 800Hz where the woofer directivity is barely narrowing. The horn/CD has no trouble down to 800Hz, no audible increase in distortion/harshness to well over 100 dB SPL. (Mind you, it's 109 dB/W sensitivity, and there's an L-pad to drop it down ~12 dB)
Thumbs up in an audition with end users yesterday. Even my wife says they sounds good. 😎
I'm pleased; they sound better than I expected them to.
There's a move afoot to apply JBL blue to the baffle + clearcoat the rest.
Here are mine
Woofer Faital12PR300
Mid Faital M5N8
Tweeter Beyma CP 21f
Crossover 2nd order
After 9 iterations they sound very well, particullary when used with tube amps.
Woofer Faital12PR300
Mid Faital M5N8
Tweeter Beyma CP 21f
Crossover 2nd order
After 9 iterations they sound very well, particullary when used with tube amps.
This is the first 3-way project with the Faital M5N8 as a midrange driver that I have ever seen.
I have a pair of these midrange drivers myself. I am therefore very interested in your project.
Can you tell me more about it?