The dispersion of the SB26ADC is good enough, imo, that its advantage in the low end (and the lower distortion it will exhibit at that low end) is significantly more audible. 3/4" tweeters are usually best crossed >3kHz.
You don't want to cross to high to a 6 or 5" if you want to keep good even dispertion and no resonances in the passsband. Therefor the SB26 series is way more suited. If you want to use the SB21 you need a driver that has a resonance above 5kHz at least and a relative wide dispetion at that frequency also, and almost no 6" and very few 5" do that. That SB21 is more suited with a dome mid or a small 3 or 4" mid that are usable to that frequency with wide dispertion and no resonances.
And as most adults don't hear above 15kHz (scientific fact), it does not matter that much anyway what happens above that. It may have an influence below if it's real mayham there, but little resonances won't messs up the sound. The SB26 is one of the better examples there also in it's size class i think For me it's the best dome i know, and it's so cheap...
And as most adults don't hear above 15kHz (scientific fact), it does not matter that much anyway what happens above that. It may have an influence below if it's real mayham there, but little resonances won't messs up the sound. The SB26 is one of the better examples there also in it's size class i think For me it's the best dome i know, and it's so cheap...
If a budget version can use the 5.25" Peerless, I have a pair, and could measure them.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1088--tymphany-sds-p830657-spec-sheet.pdf
I have the wave-guide Peerless tweeter as well.
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerl...eeter-with-Waveguide-6-Oh-264-1386?quantity=1
Also this one, but not recommended.
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-BC25SC06-04-1-Textile-Dome-Tweeter-264-1028?quantity=1
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1088--tymphany-sds-p830657-spec-sheet.pdf
I have the wave-guide Peerless tweeter as well.
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerl...eeter-with-Waveguide-6-Oh-264-1386?quantity=1
Also this one, but not recommended.
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-BC25SC06-04-1-Textile-Dome-Tweeter-264-1028?quantity=1
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The SB19 tweeter is (presumably) used in Buchardt's speakers, crossed at around 1,6kHz while staying very clean in HD/IMD and giving a pretty wide dispersion. It can even get to +-70 degrees on a less directive baffle. The downside is being somewhat limited in output, but not at all a bad compromise IMO if the other drivers are chosen in a similar fashion, and it's another 30 dough saved for other drivers (compared to the awesome SB26).
the link leads to the 6,5" version (same as the tarkus mid).
The 5.25" has the number 830656.
I also have a pair of this one, yet unused.
Furthermore I have the 10" SLS 830668.
And a slightly odd (and cheap) Lavoce SSF 102.40 10-inch "subwoofer".
If any of those are of interest I can provide measurements - not sure how quickly, however!
That 5.25 woofer looks good, but the tweeter is nowhere to be found in Europe. And most shops say that the woofer is NLA actually.
Some parameters seem to be gaining some consensus... so here's my quick and dirty attempt at defining targets for this budget classic 3-way, in a random list
1. 40-15,000 Hz, +/-3 dB on axis;
2. directivity increases smoothly with frequency +/-5 dB to 30 deg off axis, to 10kHz
3. Peak SPL (without significant distortion) 100 dB through the range (for a pair, in room)
4. Suitable for small to medium rooms (up to at least 20x15' with 8' ceiling)
5. Not difficult to drive, ~85 dB sensitivity (or higher)
6. 3-way, with drivers <$600 for a pair, passive crossover <$200/pr
7. Basic shape akin to popular '70s speakers, max size 3cf; 2cf preferred
8. Sealed, if possible for placement closer to wall (to me, this is also important for any vinyl users)
9. Baffle size/shape may require shaping for controlled directivity; WG on tweeter may be enough. Smaller Vb with WG means the enclosure can be made other shapes as desired by the builder -- ie, slimmer tower, dual-box, etc -- with little change in SQ from ref. design.
1. 40-15,000 Hz, +/-3 dB on axis;
2. directivity increases smoothly with frequency +/-5 dB to 30 deg off axis, to 10kHz
3. Peak SPL (without significant distortion) 100 dB through the range (for a pair, in room)
4. Suitable for small to medium rooms (up to at least 20x15' with 8' ceiling)
5. Not difficult to drive, ~85 dB sensitivity (or higher)
6. 3-way, with drivers <$600 for a pair, passive crossover <$200/pr
7. Basic shape akin to popular '70s speakers, max size 3cf; 2cf preferred
8. Sealed, if possible for placement closer to wall (to me, this is also important for any vinyl users)
9. Baffle size/shape may require shaping for controlled directivity; WG on tweeter may be enough. Smaller Vb with WG means the enclosure can be made other shapes as desired by the builder -- ie, slimmer tower, dual-box, etc -- with little change in SQ from ref. design.
1. 40-20,000 Hz +/- 3dB on axis.
I appreciate that it is true that most males over 40 don't hear above 15kHz. Buy "most adults" would include all males and females over 18 and this is not a scientific fact. While I cannot hear above 15kHz, my wife and all of my children (my adult children teenagers) can.
8. Sealed, if possible...
Sealed with an F3 of 40Hz is going to be hard to achieve.
Are we okay with a 10" woofer or do we want the extra displacement of a 12"?
Is 4-ohm nominal okay?
I appreciate that it is true that most males over 40 don't hear above 15kHz. Buy "most adults" would include all males and females over 18 and this is not a scientific fact. While I cannot hear above 15kHz, my wife and all of my children (my adult children teenagers) can.
8. Sealed, if possible...
Sealed with an F3 of 40Hz is going to be hard to achieve.
Are we okay with a 10" woofer or do we want the extra displacement of a 12"?
Is 4-ohm nominal okay?
Who is in Austrailia?
https://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/830860-peerless-5-mid-woofer-hds-poly
They have some Peerless products that are not available in the US. Prices look high. This 5.25" is very nice.
This 6.5" is available. I have these, and can measure.
https://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/830874-peerless-6-mid-woofer-hds-poly
I also have this one. 4".
https://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/830870-peerless-4-mid-woofer-hds-poly
https://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/830860-peerless-5-mid-woofer-hds-poly
They have some Peerless products that are not available in the US. Prices look high. This 5.25" is very nice.
This 6.5" is available. I have these, and can measure.
https://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/830874-peerless-6-mid-woofer-hds-poly
I also have this one. 4".
https://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/830870-peerless-4-mid-woofer-hds-poly
This website has a lot of Peerless products.
https://www.soundimports.eu/nl/peerless-by-tymphany-sds-p830656.html
This one too. I love this 5.25" driver. I have a pair.
https://electrocarts.in/product/peerless-by-tymphany-woofer-hds-p830991/
https://www.soundimports.eu/nl/peerless-by-tymphany-sds-p830656.html
This one too. I love this 5.25" driver. I have a pair.
https://electrocarts.in/product/peerless-by-tymphany-woofer-hds-p830991/
The exchange rate might be exaggerating that. Also, international postage here is usually quite high.
Frankenstein design option. (Semi crazy idea. )
This might work. I could for example mount a teeter, and mid on a 13" x 30" baffle, or wider, and actually make an 85dB filter with a 400hz high-pass for an 85dB speaker sensitivity.
Someone else could do something similar with a woofer.
This might work. I could for example mount a teeter, and mid on a 13" x 30" baffle, or wider, and actually make an 85dB filter with a 400hz high-pass for an 85dB speaker sensitivity.
Someone else could do something similar with a woofer.
They're just listed for the sake of putting something down.
20kHz -- most tweeters have some output up there, so... but there's not a lot of benefit of chasing flat response out to 20k. Not musically, not perceptibly, not for most of us
Sealed -- it's my pet bias. If a 2-2.5cf box with a cheapish 10 or 12 gives us F3 @ 35Hz with a port, that's great. I might still opt for a sealed version with its slower bass rolloff & wall-friendly position. That is the #1 WAF complaint I hear about "audiophile" speakers" -- the need to put them further out into the room. A lot of guys feel the same way too, they don't want speakers out 3-4' the way I have most of mine.
This is absurdly cheap at PE & Solen -- US$35 & CA$50: GRS 12SW-4
8.5mm Xmax not horrible, and required Vb is modest.
PE says...
Recommended sealed enclosure: Vb = 1.5 ft^3, F3 = 37 Hz, Qtc: 1.6
Recommended vented enclosure: Vb = 2.5 ft^3, Fb = 32 Hz, F3 = 30 Hz
Based on 120W power rating and 89 dB/2.83V, SPLmax would be ~105 dB if not limited by Xmax.
Anyone ever hear/use this??
8.5mm Xmax not horrible, and required Vb is modest.
PE says...
Recommended sealed enclosure: Vb = 1.5 ft^3, F3 = 37 Hz, Qtc: 1.6
Recommended vented enclosure: Vb = 2.5 ft^3, Fb = 32 Hz, F3 = 30 Hz
Based on 120W power rating and 89 dB/2.83V, SPLmax would be ~105 dB if not limited by Xmax.
Anyone ever hear/use this??
That GRS is not good above about 150Hz according to a couple users on another forum.
Another thing- placement in the room affects higher than you think. The low bass is better aligned sealed at closer boundaries, but then the midbass and lower mids get thick and sound muddy. Your best bet is to optimize for one or the other, and not both.
Another thing- placement in the room affects higher than you think. The low bass is better aligned sealed at closer boundaries, but then the midbass and lower mids get thick and sound muddy. Your best bet is to optimize for one or the other, and not both.
The question between 10” and 12”, BR or sealed could be answered by a question about SPL @ 40Hz and the Vd needed to get there, the room size and listening distance.
The difficulty then, without some experience, it's hard to calibrate. I mean, is 100dB enough? 105dB? 110dB? What is THX/Atmos reference levels and do I want that at home? etc.
When I designed my last 3 way, I was too focused ensuring my sensitivity, after baffle step compensation, was enough to match my midrange and tweeter.
But I did not pay enough attention to maximum SPL.
Big mistake. Only after I finished it, I realised it was far more capable than I would ever use. This made me go back and have a closer look to see where I had gone wrong:
I used a pair of 12" P830845 XXLS in a sealed box of 100L, which, within x-max AND power handling^ >115 dB/m from 40Hz upwards.
^
Wait. What?
100 hours !with a continuous signal?
Reference: Power testing according to IEC 60268-5 is a 100 hour power testing with a continuous weight pink noise signal
This is a 2pi model, similar to what you'd get from winISD.
Simulation from VituixCAD2:
How does that equate to my room and listening position?
Of course I took out the SPL meter and verified it- yes, 109dB at my listening position may be nice to simulate nightclub levels, the 95% of the time I'm at 85-90dB. On the rare occasion at the family is absent and I want to listen loud, it's only 100dB.
This is far more than necessary, and in the long term likely to hearing broad-band (all frequencies) hearing loss:
"OSHA allows 8 hours of exposure to 90 dBA but only 2 hours of exposure to 100 dBA sound levels. NIOSH would recommend limiting the 8 hour exposure to less than 85 dBA. At 100 dBA, NIOSH recommends less than 15 minutes of exposure per day."
This is real thing and in my field, is the number one cause of broad-band (all frequencies) hearing loss, and not just high frequencies (age-related)
It's fun to go down this road one in your life-time, but I won't be doing that again...
Hope my youth and foolishness can help assist your wise decision making...
The difficulty then, without some experience, it's hard to calibrate. I mean, is 100dB enough? 105dB? 110dB? What is THX/Atmos reference levels and do I want that at home? etc.
When I designed my last 3 way, I was too focused ensuring my sensitivity, after baffle step compensation, was enough to match my midrange and tweeter.
But I did not pay enough attention to maximum SPL.
Big mistake. Only after I finished it, I realised it was far more capable than I would ever use. This made me go back and have a closer look to see where I had gone wrong:
I used a pair of 12" P830845 XXLS in a sealed box of 100L, which, within x-max AND power handling^ >115 dB/m from 40Hz upwards.
^
Wait. What?
100 hours !with a continuous signal?
Reference: Power testing according to IEC 60268-5 is a 100 hour power testing with a continuous weight pink noise signal
This is a 2pi model, similar to what you'd get from winISD.
Simulation from VituixCAD2:
How does that equate to my room and listening position?
Of course I took out the SPL meter and verified it- yes, 109dB at my listening position may be nice to simulate nightclub levels, the 95% of the time I'm at 85-90dB. On the rare occasion at the family is absent and I want to listen loud, it's only 100dB.
This is far more than necessary, and in the long term likely to hearing broad-band (all frequencies) hearing loss:
"OSHA allows 8 hours of exposure to 90 dBA but only 2 hours of exposure to 100 dBA sound levels. NIOSH would recommend limiting the 8 hour exposure to less than 85 dBA. At 100 dBA, NIOSH recommends less than 15 minutes of exposure per day."
Reference:
https://www.osha.gov/noise#loud
https://www.osha.gov/noise#loud
This is real thing and in my field, is the number one cause of broad-band (all frequencies) hearing loss, and not just high frequencies (age-related)
It's fun to go down this road one in your life-time, but I won't be doing that again...
Hope my youth and foolishness can help assist your wise decision making...
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Surely this depends a lot on exact position of drivers on the baffle/box & crossover points.
For example, years ago, I owned a pair of NHT 2.9. 4-way, passive. Sealed 10" woofer on the bottom inside side panel of each enclosure, all other drivers arrayed at the top of the 40" tall front panel, which is 18" deep -- quite far from the back panel. It had a fat, deep bass, no thickness in the mid-bass or higher. Clean, crisp & detailed for the time, overall. I placed it 6" to 12" from the wall/glass doors behind on the short wall of the 15x30' room.
Admittedly the low pass for the woofer was 100Hz, likely no more than 2nd order, helped by its natural rolloff.
Anyway, I've gone as high 250hz with sealed bass speakers with a similar config and not experienced the thickening of mid-bass you mention.