Nah the HMF200 breaks up too early for that.
Convolution fir filter made in Focus Fidelity handles all freq/phase/time corrections.
I’ll post some in room measurements soon.
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Lynn,
I followed this thread from the beginning, but went away somewhere in the middle. I've come back recently, as I have some similar renewed interest again. Can I ask a question, and I don't intend to be rude or nosey, but have you built iterations of your ideas? What are you listening to now? It wasn't clear to me going back a couple dozen pages where you ended up.
BTW, I collected all the parts to build the Karnas way back and only completed the PSUs, before life happened and I ended up parting it out and selling it off. I had even built the main mono chassis and laid everything out. It is what it is. At the same time, I don't think those amps would match my musical preferences which is super dynamic, potentially loud and a bit chaotic music. I wouldn't know though as I didn't finish and listen to them.
I reached out to Troy Crowe, as he is local to me now (I grew up in Puyallup, WA) but haven't received any response in over a week. I was curious about his horns. I've played around with a few and intend to play around with many more. I still prefer a relatively well designed CD "horn/waveguide" over a traditional horn like the LMLC, as I don't tend to only sit still while listening and I abhor the head in the vice beaming or major tonal shift off axis. But I've only tried a few.
I followed this thread from the beginning, but went away somewhere in the middle. I've come back recently, as I have some similar renewed interest again. Can I ask a question, and I don't intend to be rude or nosey, but have you built iterations of your ideas? What are you listening to now? It wasn't clear to me going back a couple dozen pages where you ended up.
BTW, I collected all the parts to build the Karnas way back and only completed the PSUs, before life happened and I ended up parting it out and selling it off. I had even built the main mono chassis and laid everything out. It is what it is. At the same time, I don't think those amps would match my musical preferences which is super dynamic, potentially loud and a bit chaotic music. I wouldn't know though as I didn't finish and listen to them.
I reached out to Troy Crowe, as he is local to me now (I grew up in Puyallup, WA) but haven't received any response in over a week. I was curious about his horns. I've played around with a few and intend to play around with many more. I still prefer a relatively well designed CD "horn/waveguide" over a traditional horn like the LMLC, as I don't tend to only sit still while listening and I abhor the head in the vice beaming or major tonal shift off axis. But I've only tried a few.
I had a nice phone conversation with him tonight. He is doing well, but the project is on a hiatus. Hoping to get together with him in the coming year, hoping there will be further developments.
Gary,
Glad to hear that Lynn is well. Have your speakers changed much since the JMLC 425 horns/Yamaha 6681B drivers atop the sealed GPA 461-8B midwoofers? I know that the Yamahas only do out to ~ 10kHz but I recall your being so highly pleased with their neutrality and detail.
But since switching to them from to Radian 745Be have you had need to replace the foam cushion in the Yamahas, as it’s known to eventually disintegrate?
IIRC, Lynn said the 425 horn’s directivity pattern is relatively narrow, though the response smoothly tapers off as you go beyond their ~ 4 ft sweet spot. When seated (or standing?), how does their off-axis response tend to present recordings having a wide sound stage?
And in what ways might you have found the 425 horns exploiting the virtues of your 12 ft slanted ceiling?
Crossover frequency with the sealed Altec 416-8B midwoofers?
Yours is the first system I've found which also uses JMLC horns for home theater.
https://galibierdesign.com/wa-trip-01/
Do you often play DVD and BD movies? If yes, then in lieu of a surround sound system to access the disc’s multichannel sound track, can you describe the tangible aspects of the phantom center channel-especially since your speakers, though toed in, have that huge screen in between them?
Dialogue imaging and other center channel content presentation?
And if you have watched a good number of DVD/BD movies, for those with less than wonderful sound quality can you recall if the Yamahas are how much if at all more forgiving than were the Radian 745 Be drivers?
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Ro808 posted this attached curves. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ion-with-a-2-way.334757/page-164#post-5926354
Assuming these are accurate measurements of the AH425 horn, looking at the FR curves, if the horns were toed-in ~ 30 degrees, though you would lose that amount of room coverage you would in turn gain a much flatter on-axis response, yes?
I know it’s only a picture, but what might it tell you about how sound is projected by those 425 horns as placed (~ 8 ft apart) in that room? And in a ~ 22 ft x 15 room, with a sloping ceiling that peaks at 11 ft?
https://galibierdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/wa-trip_gary-d.jpg
For a single listener 11 ft away, despite the very beamy 425 horn, versus low directivity horns (e.g. https://audiohorn.net/x-shape-horn/ or https://audiohorn.net/next-gen-bi-radial-horn/ ) being “….more enveloping / have wider soundstages and center vocalists or instruments sound like they're further away / behind the front wall.”, would there still be a perceptively large sound stage in all dimensions?
If not, would it seem more so if I moved another 3 ft away?
The only reason I asked this was because this DIYer who built these speakers with AH425 horns/Radian 745Be drivers said “Soundstage is ridiculously huge. Incredibly 3D it sometimes sounds like it’s coming from behind you. Surreal.”
What may account for his reaction from such high directivity horns?
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Could be a sign they are not illuminating the wall behind them, so the wall is not heard.
You could EQ any axis flat. This way you can balance power as well as directing away from walls.
Maybe you do not expect an answer from another member and your question is directed to someone specifically, so I apologize for stepping in. Your remark triggered me to share some subjective findings on this topic, if you don't mind. I use to listen to 265Hz JLMC horns for a few years now and still enjoying them. My impression is that these kind of horns can do that despite the beamy character. As most of the imaging effect occurs in the 1-4kHz band where these horns are not yet beaming, they are able to present a huge soundstage and very deep too, if that is being asked by the music. Also, I have no impression that voices shift to the forefront or tones that jump at you. Voices seem placed between the speakers or behind and only if the music dictates, they are placed more forward. The narrowing directivity also makes sharp percussion sounds and little high frequency events also more "visible" and it is known that JMLC horns have very flat group delay and exellent phase response that contributes to a 3D sound experience. The downside that I experience is, that you have to aim the horns at the listingspot like a flashlight beam. If you toe them out too far, then the high frequencies seem to shift towards the driver, more "into" the horn. Probably that is the consequence of a horn with considerable length. So you better have a flat frequency curve on axis. And yes, tonal balance shift when you are out of the sweet spot, but it is still entertaining and does not make the music unlistenable although you can perceive less high frequency content. The more important mid frequencies however are still there when you move away from on axis. Just my 2cts.
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Those curves are kind of tough to use in my opinion. I prefer polar maps for looking at directivity. You can (and pretty much have to) EQ a horn like this to get the response you want in my experience, so 'getting a flatter on-axis response' is kind of meaningless in my opinion. You can make any axis flat (or whatever response shape you want), but the power response will change in the same way which is what will drive the reverberant field in the room. I have my speakers pointed at my listening position. I EQ my system for the room it's in at the listening position. I have my speakers a fair distance from all walls, but I'm not sure it matters that much with high directivity designs like these. The general comments I made on imagining had some systems near the walls, some far away. I suppose if you didn't point the speakers at the listening position and then eq'd the system like that you might get a more enveloping system due to higher levels of horizontal early reflections but I haven't tried it myself. I guess the reverberant field would end up a bit brighter if you had to boost the highs due to listening off axis (room dependent).
The Audiohorn.net horns you link to are not particularly low directivity. They look to be -6dB around +/-45 degrees horizontally which would make them a moderately high directivity design (maybe around 8-10dB of directivity index) in my experience. Not as high as a round LeCleac'h horn but still fairly directive. I would say low directivity is around 0dB (omni), medium is 5dB (cardioid), high is above 10dB. My LeCleac'h system is around 10-12dB above 700Hz when looking at DI based on power in the listening window.
I wonder what the difference in the subjective comments on imaging you are trying to evaluate are due to. I honestly do not know. My experiences come from being able to instantly switch between otherwise identical systems in the same position in the same room with matching in-room timbre with varying directivity. In such a case you are really only listening to the directivity differences. It's very interesting. Having a speaker with a directivity dial would be a fun thing to have. Dial it down for some classical in a big hall, dial it up for jazz or other small bands, maybe.
Thanks for a welcomed and highly informative reply, even though your JMLC horns and room are obviously way bigger than the AH425 and my ~ 2900 cu ft room. Your observations of the sound within and beyond the 425 horn’s sweet spot mostly parallel those of the Reddit poster and Lynn Olson. Were it not for grossly overpopulated Schiit Island, NY and its consequently obscene housing prices and (school) property taxes, I’d likely have at least twice the available and proper acoustic space. Instead, room size limits me to only one speaker pair, so I’ve endeavored to learn how to choose among horns for the most personally pleasing and practical directivity.
Unfortunately, because I am not a DIYer and my builder Troy Crowe has my midwoofers https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed , has insisted on a completion deadline, I need to get these horn/driver choices right the first time. And I only have until April to choose.
On another important related matter: As much as 45% of my favorite music was less than pristinely recorded. Much of it was recorded during the 60s when vinyl and AM radio required engineers to squash master tape content with excessive dynamic range compression-and where doing so also gave pro-Loudness Wars producers the opportunity to boost signal levels, to better grab listener attention. Not surprisingly, sometimes these tricks backfired, at least being audible on higher resolution playback systems, where those deliberately higher record levels, prior to and/or during applied compression, may have resulted in higher amounts of 3rd harmonic distortion and whatever else may have caused a “congested” sound.
Though there will be some thankful exceptions in my collection https://www.hdtracks.com/#/album/5df1427d0bee25c09bc163fd ,
restoration software such as https://www.izotope.com/en/products/rx.html can remove neither harmonic distortion or restore dynamics lost to abusively applied compression ratios.
Therefore, because of the JMLC horn's narrowing directivity, did you find sharp and higher frequency sounds of your favorite but less than well recorded music made for hard or fatiguing listening, compared to lower directivity horns you may have heard, such as some biradial or mulitcells?
If yes, which makes/models?
Likewise, because beryllium drivers, such as https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 745neoBepb-1.htm deliver effortless detail and clarity, might they prove even more problematic with such troubled recordings in JMLC horns, than they would in a constant or lower directivity horn?
Instead, would drivers like these be more merciful in JMLC horns? https://www.sbaudience.com/index.php/products/compression-drivers/rosso-65cdn-t/ https://audio-database.com/YAMAHA/unit/ja-6681.html
If not, then perhaps https://www.bmsspeakers.com/fileadm...1-04_coaxial_neodymium_compression_driver.pdf
Or other suggested non-beryllium two-way drivers?
OTOH, would beryllium or titanium drivers sound more agreeable with compressed or somewhat distorted recordings in lower directivity two-way horns?
https://audiohorn.net/next-gen-bi-radial-horn/
or in three-way horns?
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/bms-4591-with-horn-no-1670
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/lens-no-1896-for-fostex-t96a
I do not have much comparison with all kinds of different horns as a separate item -although I have heard various state of the art horn systems but less well recorded music sounds like less well recorded music anyway -whether on wide or narrow directivity speakers. There are speakers that are more forgiving and those that are less forgiving and it does not depend of what type of speaker.
If my music collection would contain a lot of less well recorded music like yours, I think I would opt for an equalizer or tone controls to tweak the music playback to my liking. Nothing shameful to throttle the highs a bit if it sounds shrill or fatiguing. It also depends on the acoustics of the room. I have learned to apply room treatment with my jlmc horns, something that is said to be less needed with wide directivity speakers. I think mr. Troy Crowe should be able to give you good advise if you describe your situation.
Not necessarily, but I never heard those unfortunately. The proper kind of "beaminess" does not translate into excessive highs, that is a misunderstanding. All depend on the design.
I use these myself and have a lot of experience with them. But need some tweaking to get the most out of those. I also recall Le'Cleach advised against these drivers in a JLMC horn, but I decided to ignore that statement 😉
If I were you, in a small room I would rather choose for wider directivity, unless you really want the "giant headphone with imaging" effect in one listening spot. You need some distance from high directivity horns to integrate well i.m.e. and if listening too close and with few space between the speakers, moving your head a few inches shifts the image pretty dramatically, due to the small sweetspot. You will need about 10ft at least and a proper listening triangle. So two way may be the better option in your case... But there are members here more knowledgeble than me on this topic and milage vary.
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Hi @marco_gea,
I understand that you have the Yamamoto SS-300. Some time ago I looked for some information and found a crude drawing and a claim that they are hyperbolic. Can you confirm?
Kindest regards,
M
I understand that you have the Yamamoto SS-300. Some time ago I looked for some information and found a crude drawing and a claim that they are hyperbolic. Can you confirm?
Kindest regards,
M
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I can confirm that the dimensions match that drawing. Beyond that, I cannot say much about the actual expansion rate, as I obviously didn't design them myself. I think they are most probably hypex, though, like all other Yamamoto horns.
They sound fabulous.
They sound fabulous.
Hi @marco_gea,
Kindest regards,
M
Thank you very much for your answer. You would not know, by the chance, what the hyperbolic influence is.
Kindest regards,
M