Hi Austrian Printer,
Please read up on diode "conduction angle" and how the magnitude on peak current increases extremely rapidly as that angle drops. There is a level of capacitance where increasing beyond makes no practical difference. IF you have a problem with a volt or two of sag with music, you are clipping. Either that or you are running a power oscillator or motor driver that runs at that level. I would then argue the design will fail because you're running it too hard.
So, extremely high current peaks excite lead inductance and transformer winding inductance at frequencies far higher than electrolytic capacitors can handle. You are much further ahead to avoid creating this noise than to try and get rid of it later. Lower frequencies are easier to eliminate than high ones.
TIM does not exist, this has been proved yet it hangs on. IM distortion certainly does as does THD. Plus induced distortion from circuit coupling or non-linear components. For example, a fuse is really bad news in series with your speaker. All fuses operate the same way, so audiophile fuses don't do what they claim they do.
You can think of anything you want as a placebo, or whatever. What the industry knows does agree with subjective testing done right.
Please read up on diode "conduction angle" and how the magnitude on peak current increases extremely rapidly as that angle drops. There is a level of capacitance where increasing beyond makes no practical difference. IF you have a problem with a volt or two of sag with music, you are clipping. Either that or you are running a power oscillator or motor driver that runs at that level. I would then argue the design will fail because you're running it too hard.
So, extremely high current peaks excite lead inductance and transformer winding inductance at frequencies far higher than electrolytic capacitors can handle. You are much further ahead to avoid creating this noise than to try and get rid of it later. Lower frequencies are easier to eliminate than high ones.
TIM does not exist, this has been proved yet it hangs on. IM distortion certainly does as does THD. Plus induced distortion from circuit coupling or non-linear components. For example, a fuse is really bad news in series with your speaker. All fuses operate the same way, so audiophile fuses don't do what they claim they do.
You can think of anything you want as a placebo, or whatever. What the industry knows does agree with subjective testing done right.
Hi all,
I have been needing this information for some time now so I would appreciate if one of you knows about this:
What is the typical inductance of radial capacitors with a lead spacing of 3.5, 5, and 7.5mm? Lead length assumed to be ~0.6mm ("inserted into PCB lead length").
Any of you would know about this - or maybe have a link to a website/article/calculator where these values can be found or calculated?
Thanks for considering and hopefully knowing about this,
Jesper
I have been needing this information for some time now so I would appreciate if one of you knows about this:
What is the typical inductance of radial capacitors with a lead spacing of 3.5, 5, and 7.5mm? Lead length assumed to be ~0.6mm ("inserted into PCB lead length").
Any of you would know about this - or maybe have a link to a website/article/calculator where these values can be found or calculated?
Thanks for considering and hopefully knowing about this,
Jesper
Hi anatech ... & thanks for commenting. However, unfortunately I don't have the equipment (at least currently) to make such measurements which is why I was/am hoping that someone here can help with "ballpark figures" for the PCM distances I listed ... 
Cheers, Jesper
Cheers, Jesper
Hi Jesper,
I could measure a few for you. I keep many on hand but obviously not everything. I assume at normal mounting distances or at bent lead distances?
I'll be using an HP 4263A or 4192A for this. Kelvin connections.
I could measure a few for you. I keep many on hand but obviously not everything. I assume at normal mounting distances or at bent lead distances?
I'll be using an HP 4263A or 4192A for this. Kelvin connections.
That is very kind of you, thanks for offering this! .... but to be honest I think it would be asking for more than my purpose merits. I actually just need a ballpark figure (not least to satisfy my curiosity about this) as there are many other factors that also affect the circuitry in question.
But, again, many thanks - very considerate of you 😉
Jesper
No problem. I don't know off-hand. I'm working on my bench, so I can hook up a couple for you.
I normally don't measure this since I can't change it anyhow. I do measure DA and use low inductance type capacitors where I know I may have HF impedance issues.
I normally don't measure this since I can't change it anyhow. I do measure DA and use low inductance type capacitors where I know I may have HF impedance issues.
I have been testing some different capacitors which seemed interesting after discovering Nichicon FG was very bland sounding on a Behringer audio interface I was modding (adding reference voltage, isolating USB VCC, & replacing Jamicon/CapXon caps).
I tried some Wurth WCAP-ATG8, surprisingly good bass and soundstage but no focus on any particular instrument or sense of direction. Still, I enjoyed the sound besides the lack of focus.
Something which surprised me was KEMET ESK series, I'm finding, at least with the 100uf's, exceptional directional positioning & instrument separation, fast sound, slight upper midrange bias. I will be trying more from this series.
Does anyone here like Chemi-Con KY series? I have used a lot of that series 1000uf and 4700uf in power supplies, and find the tone is absolutely excellent. They are a little expensive for low ESR caps, but exceptional on sound I think. Unfortunately, I did not have the values of KY on hand to install them in the interface. I used to avoid low ESR stuff after some bad experiences with other brands ESR caps, though that was before I understood electronics better & could make a better informed decision when purchasing caps.
Personally I didn't enjoy Silmic II when I had it in a similar interface, but I will admit I was starting to like it after I had left it running for a long time, so maybe it really does need to break in.
I still want to try Nichicon KZ and OS-CON in this interface.
I tried some Wurth WCAP-ATG8, surprisingly good bass and soundstage but no focus on any particular instrument or sense of direction. Still, I enjoyed the sound besides the lack of focus.
Something which surprised me was KEMET ESK series, I'm finding, at least with the 100uf's, exceptional directional positioning & instrument separation, fast sound, slight upper midrange bias. I will be trying more from this series.
Does anyone here like Chemi-Con KY series? I have used a lot of that series 1000uf and 4700uf in power supplies, and find the tone is absolutely excellent. They are a little expensive for low ESR caps, but exceptional on sound I think. Unfortunately, I did not have the values of KY on hand to install them in the interface. I used to avoid low ESR stuff after some bad experiences with other brands ESR caps, though that was before I understood electronics better & could make a better informed decision when purchasing caps.
Personally I didn't enjoy Silmic II when I had it in a similar interface, but I will admit I was starting to like it after I had left it running for a long time, so maybe it really does need to break in.
I still want to try Nichicon KZ and OS-CON in this interface.
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Has anyone actually read the work on audibility of electrolytic capacitors that has been painstakingly done by people who actually know? Others and especially Douglas Self have done the work that explains it all.
If you want to know more, read books on filters. Then understand that coupling capacitors are not used as filters and therefore are not audible. This is all proved, tested under controlled circumstances. Or otherwise, go ahead and live in the dark ages.
If you want to know more, read books on filters. Then understand that coupling capacitors are not used as filters and therefore are not audible. This is all proved, tested under controlled circumstances. Or otherwise, go ahead and live in the dark ages.
The fact that in power amp power supplies there are extremely many different approaches from individual manufacturers, each of which claims to be the best solution (one extreme is small, cheap electrolytic caps connected in parallel in massive numbers like on EINSTEIN "THE AMP", the other extreme is the use of the best and most expensive electrolytic capacitors with screw terminals like Mundorf MLYTIC HC or SIC-SAFCO FELSIC - my favorites) proves only one thing to me:
None of the previously established measuring methods is suitable for verifying the large differences in listening tests between different electrolytic capacitors in amplifier power supplies.
Many engineers deduce from this fact, that these differences are based on imagination and do not exist in reality.
I am sure, however, that this can be proven by measuring if a suitable measuring method is used.
Unfortunately, I do not know which one it is - but I strongly suspect that measuring the ESR with pulse-shaped measuring signals clearly show the differences that were perceived in listening sessions.
None of the previously established measuring methods is suitable for verifying the large differences in listening tests between different electrolytic capacitors in amplifier power supplies.
Many engineers deduce from this fact, that these differences are based on imagination and do not exist in reality.
I am sure, however, that this can be proven by measuring if a suitable measuring method is used.
Unfortunately, I do not know which one it is - but I strongly suspect that measuring the ESR with pulse-shaped measuring signals clearly show the differences that were perceived in listening sessions.
ESR isn't nearly as good a measurement as people think. It works for calculating temperature rise and current delivery in power supply capacitors, it matters not for coupling capacitors.
Want to know how good a power supply is? Hang a scope probe on it, stick a current probe around your circuit's power feed wire - and the ground return. These things are easily measured.
Now for the important part of all this. What actually matters and what affects the circuit? Easy as heck. Looking at your THD output, what does the spectrum display show for power supply noise? You will see the mains fundamental, the 2nd harmonic which is mostly from your rectifiers, the harmonics from there up. You can inject signals into your mains or DC to see how well they are rejected also.
No matter how good a supply capacitor is, the wiring and decoupling may undo the choice of a better capacitor. How common returns are run can totally destroy an otherwise good design.
Everything that comes out the output of your device is what you could hear if the levels are high enough. Power supply, everything. We measure the supply to find out why we have output we don't want. Can feedback occur in your power supply? Yes, absolutely. This will manifest in distortion, or signals that don't belong in the output. Everything boils down to what comes out of yur device. Peeking around inside tells you why and how to fix problems.
You can concern yourself with minor differences between parts that are totally swamped by other factors. You can easily trick your mind into "hearing it" (expectation bias). You are no further ahead.
Want to know how good a power supply is? Hang a scope probe on it, stick a current probe around your circuit's power feed wire - and the ground return. These things are easily measured.
Now for the important part of all this. What actually matters and what affects the circuit? Easy as heck. Looking at your THD output, what does the spectrum display show for power supply noise? You will see the mains fundamental, the 2nd harmonic which is mostly from your rectifiers, the harmonics from there up. You can inject signals into your mains or DC to see how well they are rejected also.
No matter how good a supply capacitor is, the wiring and decoupling may undo the choice of a better capacitor. How common returns are run can totally destroy an otherwise good design.
Everything that comes out the output of your device is what you could hear if the levels are high enough. Power supply, everything. We measure the supply to find out why we have output we don't want. Can feedback occur in your power supply? Yes, absolutely. This will manifest in distortion, or signals that don't belong in the output. Everything boils down to what comes out of yur device. Peeking around inside tells you why and how to fix problems.
You can concern yourself with minor differences between parts that are totally swamped by other factors. You can easily trick your mind into "hearing it" (expectation bias). You are no further ahead.
A lot of models from the 90s were equipped with ELNA electrolytic capacitors, which started leaking after a few years.
Check out the images in post #4 under
were equipped with ELNA electrolytic capacitors, which started leaking after a few years
Who know, what was exact the reason therefore ?
The often to observe bulging at the top as to see under
https://www.robotroom.com/Faulty-Capacitors-1.html
was not to observe.
Check out the images in post #4 under
were equipped with ELNA electrolytic capacitors, which started leaking after a few years
Who know, what was exact the reason therefore ?
The often to observe bulging at the top as to see under
https://www.robotroom.com/Faulty-Capacitors-1.html
was not to observe.
Some had the wrong electrolyte formula. Some were simply physically sized too small, faulty capacitor design. Coupled with ripple current too high (equipment design problems) and you have failures.
Don't forget that this time period was also the time when products got very cheaply made (became junk) compared to earlier product. Since then it has been a race to the bottom, how poorly can something be made and last the warranty period?
Don't forget that this time period was also the time when products got very cheaply made (became junk) compared to earlier product. Since then it has been a race to the bottom, how poorly can something be made and last the warranty period?
Elna RBD Bi-polar 100 Vdc radial capacitors - some experiences ?
Need them possibly for crossover duty, the originals are also radial type, else would consider F&T axials.
Need them possibly for crossover duty, the originals are also radial type, else would consider F&T axials.
Anatech,
I was just wondering about the top message pertaining to the work on audibility of the EC’s. Is their work located in one location or is documentation scattered across multiple locations on the web?
Thank you very much for your time and help, James
Google Cyril Bateman, he did a lot of work on that, documented in Linear Audio.
Or as Chris mentioned, work by Douglas Self in several of his books.
Sometimes you need to spend time to read and/or money to buy a book to really understand it.
You can also ask here but there's no guarantee that any of the answers make any sense.
Some do, but how do you know which is which?
Good info has a price, in time and $$.
The attached is the first page when Googling Cyril Bateman
Jan
Or as Chris mentioned, work by Douglas Self in several of his books.
Sometimes you need to spend time to read and/or money to buy a book to really understand it.
You can also ask here but there's no guarantee that any of the answers make any sense.
Some do, but how do you know which is which?
Good info has a price, in time and $$.
The attached is the first page when Googling Cyril Bateman
Jan
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