@diyiggy: Thanks also for commenting. As to your question I have mainly been considering this type of capacitor for a DAC line out amplifier circuit as a replacement for electrolytic capacitors. However, I have zero experience with such capacitors - other than trying WIMA's PP capacitors for DAC output decoupling and finding them to be too bright. Is it something you have experience with?
Cheers, Jesper
Cheers, Jesper
diyiggy,from your experience What is the main quality of KZ and ES (BP),thanks.
The only common thing is they are the two caps that sounds very different from all the others from Nichicon. Most of their nowadays caps (it was IME more or less true in the 80/90s').
I would say used as decoupling of PS an op amp for instance they are different :
ES : very transparent, no weigth (meat/body/texture... words are hard to choose). It can works if ultimatly your circuit is very quiet as they do not add anything. But this ligthness is not natural. Makes me think : do we need to add default in order it tastes better ? (think spices to hide non sota meat/fisch).
KZ : I do agree with the others inputs. I like a lot the low values for last stages of solid amps 10 or 22 uF /100V IF and ONLY if all the stages before were treated with a good mix of caps (I litterally recaped a 2100 Nad amp that sounds high end just because better mix of caps everywhere where the only cap I keep was a Lelong LL smoothing cap of the preamp internal area ?! Lelong are often veiled, dark (true for their polymer too ; the worst you can find), but as smoothing cap, those LL as a first smoothing stage before next reservoir cap stage was just wonderfull (and it was just feeding a simple preamp stage opa/volume circuitry !).
I do like the 100 uF/25 : can be handy with care.
I would say most of the KZ have a good low register (not the bloomy of most of the Silmic II), a symphatetic mid among the best, but a terrible high mid/treble that avoid me to use it in most of my DACS for illustration, or needs a whole care around when possible = not worthing the hassle !
It is just me, for instance we had long conversation with a guy I like a lot for hs audio honnesty : Pedja Rogic. We agreed on a same pcb of him about some caps behavior (we both agree it is hard to find general rules about caps sounds and that ESR/ESL value/voltage is mandatory but not enough if I make the story short and this guy do listen to music) : silmic 2 yes for him at certain value/voltage condition, for me not but as DC bllocker in piggy back conf if not BG N anymore ! And I prefer (there is no photo as we say in our country) w/o any DC blocking cap in him designs (I didn't tried his OT options he made on spec, though).
It is also relative to your whole setup, for instance here Sumotan has the same DAC core than me, he likes a lot OT trafo here as he inputed and use generic low quality ones (becausse it is certainly enough here) . My setuo is different, I have a Yamaha X2 as pre between the DAC and the Chord amp ! He has ESL I have classic 3 ways with very trabsparent mid (aluminium) and tweeter (same material). Both we have full tweaked complex MKP loudspeaker filter, although they have not the same goal as his is HV (ESL) and mines "simple" filter classic behavior !
KZ could be okay if you have a strong recess of the trebles or non reflective rooms, but I do think the zingy behavior is not only treble but as often when hearable : in the high mids rigth in the pass band filter.
I do not know if that help, but this the simple words and non checked theory I apply to explain it to myself !
I would say used as decoupling of PS an op amp for instance they are different :
ES : very transparent, no weigth (meat/body/texture... words are hard to choose). It can works if ultimatly your circuit is very quiet as they do not add anything. But this ligthness is not natural. Makes me think : do we need to add default in order it tastes better ? (think spices to hide non sota meat/fisch).
KZ : I do agree with the others inputs. I like a lot the low values for last stages of solid amps 10 or 22 uF /100V IF and ONLY if all the stages before were treated with a good mix of caps (I litterally recaped a 2100 Nad amp that sounds high end just because better mix of caps everywhere where the only cap I keep was a Lelong LL smoothing cap of the preamp internal area ?! Lelong are often veiled, dark (true for their polymer too ; the worst you can find), but as smoothing cap, those LL as a first smoothing stage before next reservoir cap stage was just wonderfull (and it was just feeding a simple preamp stage opa/volume circuitry !).
I do like the 100 uF/25 : can be handy with care.
I would say most of the KZ have a good low register (not the bloomy of most of the Silmic II), a symphatetic mid among the best, but a terrible high mid/treble that avoid me to use it in most of my DACS for illustration, or needs a whole care around when possible = not worthing the hassle !
It is just me, for instance we had long conversation with a guy I like a lot for hs audio honnesty : Pedja Rogic. We agreed on a same pcb of him about some caps behavior (we both agree it is hard to find general rules about caps sounds and that ESR/ESL value/voltage is mandatory but not enough if I make the story short and this guy do listen to music) : silmic 2 yes for him at certain value/voltage condition, for me not but as DC bllocker in piggy back conf if not BG N anymore ! And I prefer (there is no photo as we say in our country) w/o any DC blocking cap in him designs (I didn't tried his OT options he made on spec, though).
It is also relative to your whole setup, for instance here Sumotan has the same DAC core than me, he likes a lot OT trafo here as he inputed and use generic low quality ones (becausse it is certainly enough here) . My setuo is different, I have a Yamaha X2 as pre between the DAC and the Chord amp ! He has ESL I have classic 3 ways with very trabsparent mid (aluminium) and tweeter (same material). Both we have full tweaked complex MKP loudspeaker filter, although they have not the same goal as his is HV (ESL) and mines "simple" filter classic behavior !
KZ could be okay if you have a strong recess of the trebles or non reflective rooms, but I do think the zingy behavior is not only treble but as often when hearable : in the high mids rigth in the pass band filter.
I do not know if that help, but this the simple words and non checked theory I apply to explain it to myself !
Thanks Diyyigy 😉 ,help of course,
I test different cap for C2 (voltage reference filter noise filter) of UBIB 1.3, it feeds a Sparkos SS2590 in a preamp,the slightest change in value is audible
what do you think of // KZ 100µf and ES100µf, what would you put in // with KZ for best high.
I test different cap for C2 (voltage reference filter noise filter) of UBIB 1.3, it feeds a Sparkos SS2590 in a preamp,the slightest change in value is audible
what do you think of // KZ 100µf and ES100µf, what would you put in // with KZ for best high.
Ah, let me read my notes, I have a good polymer for that if a modern ESS chip.
I off course not tested // ES and KZ as I never feel I needed it in the circuitry I need relative to their sounding character (if that words make sense).
Frankly I use different trick than // as the assymetric coltage rail cap I explained above.
I off course not tested // ES and KZ as I never feel I needed it in the circuitry I need relative to their sounding character (if that words make sense).
Frankly I use different trick than // as the assymetric coltage rail cap I explained above.
Yes, logical,
as i told you,i supply a Opamp Sparkos.
but,keep me updated regarding the polymer.
as i told you,i supply a Opamp Sparkos.
but,keep me updated regarding the polymer.
Hi Jesper,
yes, I would agree with you on the realism part and lacking the desired "bloom" or warmth, I have a Realistic SA-2000 made around 1977 with stock filter capacitors (2x 8000uf 50V) and I just wanted to gain an idea of the improvement I'd get before replacing them so I soldered on a 330uf 50v Nichicon KZ to each capacitor like a bypass, I don't know the frequency at which the impedance of both capacitors cross or where parasitic inductance dominates the large filters, but they seem to blend nicely (albeit from some things I will talk about later.) The amps output stage topology is quasi complementary with a CFP/Sziklai pair handling the negative side and a cascaded npn for the positive (not Darlington), only the output stage is fed directly from the filter caps and don't have any smaller caps in parallel (for high frequency transient compensation, but I assume large alone can suffice) unlike the rest (differential pair, VAS etc.) which have local decoupling with diodes to prevent the backflow of current to the output stage.
As for listening impressions, everything sounded much more refined and clear, again no smear but there was that "zinggyness" everyone talks about, it manifests as a kind of slight grain or harshness in the upper midrange, having listened to FG and reading somewhere that someone said one of the kaisei is similar to FG but more refined, can you give me your opinion on this?
Well, I'd just like to know what would you recommend for me to try as a KZ alternative without it's demerits, there is a thread called "Miniature electrolytic capacitors shootout" where someone reviewed a bunch of caps for the use in a headphone amp as output coupling. I agree with them on their comment of KZ having a "jangly" midrange and sparkly treble with metallic instruments sounding metallic, but I want to get rid of the janglyness and keep the rest of it, make it sound more natural you know, In the review they said their favourite cap was Panasonic FR, I've read a lot about this one too with some saying it's smoother than muse ES but people call Panasonic's F"X" fuzzy sounding (and some saying the muse es sounds sibilant or too transparent/recessive decay) both are cheap and on Amazon so I'll just give them a try, If you have any input on FR you can tell me as well, (in comparison to Kaisei or KZ)
It would be nice to know how's the sound of both Kaisei compared to KZ and Silmic II or FG, mainly in terms of how either kaisei handle sound (in the smearing department as well) I want back the "presence" or smoothness vs zinggyness maybe even if there's a concession I'm willing to take, and I believe you can have a softer tonality without smearing, thanks.
DO you a favor : take few Pani FC & FR ; they are handy. The FR is "darker/smoother) than the FC, that one is very transparent (as the ES Muse), can be fuzzy if the system is. A very good cap in my book.
Want smooth : most Nichicon but ES & KZ do that. Elna too (not only the S2). I don't like the UFW at Nich. And the KA too.
But as usual, you have to find the caps that work well in your system, it is compensation, so synergy. Did you see guys often there are no KZ in high ends but more the KG line for instance. One has to find his good mix in relation to his whole setup...
Want smooth : most Nichicon but ES & KZ do that. Elna too (not only the S2). I don't like the UFW at Nich. And the KA too.
But as usual, you have to find the caps that work well in your system, it is compensation, so synergy. Did you see guys often there are no KZ in high ends but more the KG line for instance. One has to find his good mix in relation to his whole setup...
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I think I will just try Kaisei, I listen to FG again and it does soften the sound without smearing it that much (well maybe at least less than silmic II, which the highs although clean and smooth has a different texture, hard to say) so I could imagine that Kaisei are better in that aspect with a similar less hard sound.
I would compare the sound to the only stereo tube amplifier I've heard, it was a push pull triode and it had a soft sound but everything was there.
I would compare the sound to the only stereo tube amplifier I've heard, it was a push pull triode and it had a soft sound but everything was there.
I dont get it Austrian, me always wondered why so many here likes the sound of Silmic ll, not referring to you ya lol.
I've tried many times in different locations but sound wise doesn't work for me, the highs especially on percussion is
sizzling & shut inn, there's some fatness to the sound & bass sounds tubby & doesn't have the dynamics of Kz.
Cheers
I've tried many times in different locations but sound wise doesn't work for me, the highs especially on percussion is
sizzling & shut inn, there's some fatness to the sound & bass sounds tubby & doesn't have the dynamics of Kz.
Cheers
For me I used silmics in the preamp power supply and for signal coupling, what I don't like about it is it's bloated upper bass which I use an EQ to attempt to fix and the midrange is too rounded or veiled, the trebles tonality is smooth but not realistic, it's not smeared either (after burn it) but it is not crisp so I can get what you mean by shut in, right now I'm in the dilemma of going with mundorf mlytic, Nichicon KS, Nichicon KG type 2 or Vishay 056 for replacing filters.. I see you have some experience with the mundorfs, how would you say the sound is? How would you compare it to that of Silmic II and KZ,
I would say KZ is the best cap I've heard so far but in my amp it's too transparent maybe revealing other flaws so I want a less hard sound, in an attempt I'm going to replace some KZ with Kaisei polar and maybe use Kaisei bipolar in place of Silmic II, I am probably stressing over which filter capacitor would synergise well with these Kaiseis but so far I've seen that KS is the most transparent, in this case I'm looking for a more pleasurable/natural sound with alot of details/does micro dynamics well etc.
Thanks and regards,
Skye
I would say KZ is the best cap I've heard so far but in my amp it's too transparent maybe revealing other flaws so I want a less hard sound, in an attempt I'm going to replace some KZ with Kaisei polar and maybe use Kaisei bipolar in place of Silmic II, I am probably stressing over which filter capacitor would synergise well with these Kaiseis but so far I've seen that KS is the most transparent, in this case I'm looking for a more pleasurable/natural sound with alot of details/does micro dynamics well etc.
Thanks and regards,
Skye
I've read https://www.audialonline.com/community/topic/still-got-the-capacitors/ review by Pedja Rogic, who
I assume you may be acquainted with Sumotan?
His determining factor of quality would be how well each capacitor achieves "focus" or I guess soundstage coherence.
He commented on the vishay 056 being seductive and having great resolution, the KS being smooth but less engaging and then finally settling on the KG type 2 for being more lush and involving,
but with all this subjectivity, I think I will just go with the vishays unless otherwise, it's lifespan is 12,000 hours with a ripple current handling of 5.26A and they have ESR ratings for 100Hz and 10KHz, these are the 10,000uF 63V ones btw.
I assume you may be acquainted with Sumotan?
His determining factor of quality would be how well each capacitor achieves "focus" or I guess soundstage coherence.
He commented on the vishay 056 being seductive and having great resolution, the KS being smooth but less engaging and then finally settling on the KG type 2 for being more lush and involving,
but with all this subjectivity, I think I will just go with the vishays unless otherwise, it's lifespan is 12,000 hours with a ripple current handling of 5.26A and they have ESR ratings for 100Hz and 10KHz, these are the 10,000uF 63V ones btw.
Too transparent you say Skye, go hunt for some low value like 10uf BG Std or BG N caps & parallel them to your Ps caps, will reduce
transparency & add Tone. lol. The Vishay 056 if Im not mistaken is a Philips series which did sound pretty good on amps PS. Myself on
amps, I've tried BHC split foils, Super Through & Mlytic. Mlytic has got a nice balance sound but have to very cautious of what you using
on the rest of the board as it may end up to sound too transparent with low warmth. Super Through sounds very good, bouncy, a little slow
sort of having a mix of vintage & modern sound. All this is really subjective cause different circuit will perform differently but knowing its sound
signature does in ways help one to decide where to use them on. Aaah yes Pedja very nice guy, have 2 of his Aya dac with one that I've tweak it
to death. For his dac Pedja likes to use FC guess its for commercial reasons. Out of the box not to bad sounding but slow. I focus lots on getting
the main PS caps to get the sound that Im looking for there after will tweak the decoupling caps. Me I feel that its a big mistake just to tweak with
decoupling caps, why so cause you must try to clean up the supply first but this does not mean add mega uf cause this will tighten the sound too
much that rythm etc will sound stale & dead. The right amount to use has to be tested on your system.
Cheers
transparency & add Tone. lol. The Vishay 056 if Im not mistaken is a Philips series which did sound pretty good on amps PS. Myself on
amps, I've tried BHC split foils, Super Through & Mlytic. Mlytic has got a nice balance sound but have to very cautious of what you using
on the rest of the board as it may end up to sound too transparent with low warmth. Super Through sounds very good, bouncy, a little slow
sort of having a mix of vintage & modern sound. All this is really subjective cause different circuit will perform differently but knowing its sound
signature does in ways help one to decide where to use them on. Aaah yes Pedja very nice guy, have 2 of his Aya dac with one that I've tweak it
to death. For his dac Pedja likes to use FC guess its for commercial reasons. Out of the box not to bad sounding but slow. I focus lots on getting
the main PS caps to get the sound that Im looking for there after will tweak the decoupling caps. Me I feel that its a big mistake just to tweak with
decoupling caps, why so cause you must try to clean up the supply first but this does not mean add mega uf cause this will tighten the sound too
much that rythm etc will sound stale & dead. The right amount to use has to be tested on your system.
Cheers
Pedja's is using FM caps and few os-cons. for the leaded caps.
SOme Vishays/BG gave me short bass as if there was a high pass... I haven't tried them for a while...
SOme Vishays/BG gave me short bass as if there was a high pass... I haven't tried them for a while...
The FC are not slow...😀 (their clarity in the highs doesn't break the treble register that often contribute to the feeling of "speed" that is coralated to the Prat/Snap aera (80/200 hz) when handled correctly (by the speaker, the good caps when needed...
But too much FC is bad...
But too much FC is bad...
I said Aya sounded slow Iggy. lol
Yes FC is much faster but me dont like its sound, again its subjective as my system & yours are different
Yes FC is much faster but me dont like its sound, again its subjective as my system & yours are different
decouple with FCA on -15V only.
Yes it migth changes according eachone system... and it is the whole recaping of a device you have to test, as the others caps is heared too, not only the FC. My Aya doesn't sound slow.... the opposite.
.
Yes it migth changes according eachone system... and it is the whole recaping of a device you have to test, as the others caps is heared too, not only the FC. My Aya doesn't sound slow.... the opposite.
.
A few recent experiments might be of value. I spent a lot of time on two naim pre-amp boards that have local 47uf power rail caps (fed from a 24V supply) and a feedback cap on the gain board (again 47uf) and the signal in and out on both boards. So two in and two out (these are blocking 12V DC so I kept them in place (10uf) . For signal I experimented with
Silmic II
Audio Note Kaisei
Oscon SP
Good condition originals
Muse ES
Nichicon KZ
Kemet Tantalum
For bypass on these I tried
Panasonic EQL
WIMA MKS
WIMA MKP
Orange drop DME
For power and feedback
Silmic II
Audio Note Kaisei
Oscon SP
Good condition originals
Nichicon KZ
Wet tantalum
Also repeated Bypass list
I did most combinations over many weeks and as I have four pre-amps I was able to build, burn in and keep several boards for A-B-C-D over some time.
Lots of notes and for me I am more interested in :
Lower down the list
I also went through cap by cap and did some combinations to check on synergy. The stock well chosen caps in good condition were better than a lot of alteratives. naim must have listened !
My final combination SIGNAL was A 10uf bead tantalum with a 0.1uf DME bypass on all apart from one signl out location where I chose a silmic and no bypass (all made it worse)
POWER and FEEDBACK all with Nichicon KZ with a DME bypass 0.47uf on the power and 0.1uf on the feedback
I then got excited about adding some DME caps to my upgraded Panasonic 4K player analogue out, the caps here are a combination of Silmic and Cerafine ahead of the Opams (MJM 2114) and adding 0.47uf DME bypass was a backward step WIMA MKS was great. I have come to the conclusion sensible guess as to what will work best is a good start but you simply don't know until you try.....
I also have 6 unused (but glued into the chassis) Arizona Blue bypass caps, a similar amount of Jensen PIO and only kept two pairs of Arizona's for bypass. I can only say try and have a second unit to A-B against or you are highly likely to draw the wrong conclusions. If you are 'unsure' you MUST leave listen then remove, usually 'unsure' for me means it's worse
Silmic II
Audio Note Kaisei
Oscon SP
Good condition originals
Muse ES
Nichicon KZ
Kemet Tantalum
For bypass on these I tried
Panasonic EQL
WIMA MKS
WIMA MKP
Orange drop DME
For power and feedback
Silmic II
Audio Note Kaisei
Oscon SP
Good condition originals
Nichicon KZ
Wet tantalum
Also repeated Bypass list
I did most combinations over many weeks and as I have four pre-amps I was able to build, burn in and keep several boards for A-B-C-D over some time.
Lots of notes and for me I am more interested in :
- Weight, body and scale
- Dynamics, real tone and natural projection
- A sense of life, live and realism
- Natural unforced insight and resolution
Lower down the list
- The last ounce of detail
- Pin point imaging
I also went through cap by cap and did some combinations to check on synergy. The stock well chosen caps in good condition were better than a lot of alteratives. naim must have listened !
My final combination SIGNAL was A 10uf bead tantalum with a 0.1uf DME bypass on all apart from one signl out location where I chose a silmic and no bypass (all made it worse)
POWER and FEEDBACK all with Nichicon KZ with a DME bypass 0.47uf on the power and 0.1uf on the feedback
I then got excited about adding some DME caps to my upgraded Panasonic 4K player analogue out, the caps here are a combination of Silmic and Cerafine ahead of the Opams (MJM 2114) and adding 0.47uf DME bypass was a backward step WIMA MKS was great. I have come to the conclusion sensible guess as to what will work best is a good start but you simply don't know until you try.....
I also have 6 unused (but glued into the chassis) Arizona Blue bypass caps, a similar amount of Jensen PIO and only kept two pairs of Arizona's for bypass. I can only say try and have a second unit to A-B against or you are highly likely to draw the wrong conclusions. If you are 'unsure' you MUST leave listen then remove, usually 'unsure' for me means it's worse