Babelfish ᄅſ....or FW J2 on Steroids .... or Not your Father's J2!

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SissySIT / Babel J2

Impressions are challenging - I had some time to listen back to back over a few days. I've also put 100s of hours on each amp. The most recent long-term listening was with the J2. So, I put the SissySIT in right after it. As mentioned, both were used with the ACP+ and identical sources. The amps were built with exactly the parts ZM sent with the exceptions of sourcing the Tokins for the SissySIT. They have identical power supplies. I made every attempt to listen to a number of songs and take some rough dB measurements at listening position with a phone app. My room is NOT ideal. So, with all those caveats out of the way... on with it.

I added RCA inputs to the SissySIT and checked it over one more time. I am paranoid any time I take the top cover off.

Personally, I like to give the amps at least overnight to get up to operating temp. FWIW plus a bag of chips, I think the SissySIT needs a bit more time to reach its happy place than most of the other amps. I don't have anything scientific to back up that claim. So, I left the SissySIT plugged up for ~14 hours before swapping over. I leave all my amps on 24/7. Whether I should or not is debatable, but I think I hear differences during warmup, and usually I want to listen... when I want to listen.

Note to self: I need some kind of a switching device for this. For those that may care, I used the identical power cables, speaker cables, and interconnects. I moved the exact wiring between amps.

Process -

  • I had listened to the Babel J2 for a number of weeks.
  • I took the time to listen to some music I know (no real reason for my choices) in anticipation of a swap. I took a few notes. I also did a quick dB measurement.
  • I swapped to the SissySIT, level matched, and listened to the same songs immediately.
  • I left the SissySIT in the system for a few days.
  • I put the SissySIT back to the previous level level and listened to a few different songs and took a few more notes
  • I swapped the Babel J2 back and listened to the same songs.
Observations -

On first listen, the SissySIT seemed a bit brighter and more forward sounding on the top end. It's not negative at all, but it's a different sound. Cymbals sound a bit different to me. The way I've described it in the past was sizzle (SissySIT) against shimmer (Babel J2) in varying degrees. It's not that drastic, but it's directional to me.

Voices with the SissySIT can have a bit more sibilance to me, particularly females. It sounds crazy, but singers sound younger with the SissySIT. I'm not talking about 70s vs. 00s Stevie Nicks. It's hard to describe. Janis Joplin's rasp is still raspy, but with the J2 - it's like she's mellowed. I prefer Annie Lennox with the SissySIT, while I prefer Alison Krauss with the J2. Both are sublime. The best analogy I can think of is some younger wines versus wines that have aged or been decanted. A younger wine may be more "in your face", so it better be perfect. Wines with a bit of age still have all the subtle flavors, and sometimes/usually... they're a bit easier to drink. I find Annie's voice fabulous on almost any system - she's "perfectly aged" already. Alison's can hit me as harsh sometimes, so the added mellowness of the J2 or the "aging" is welcome. If that makes no sense ... move along.

I also find it fun to see how well I can actually understand lyrics and pick them out. I know all of the lyrics, but if I can hear "Excuse me while I kiss the Sky vs. Kiss this Guy" well, you know what I mean. Certain combinations just seem to make lyrics more intelligible. I call it removing the marbles from Eddie Vedder's mouth. :D Edge to the SissySIT.

The SissySIT seems to provide a bit more detail, particularly with electronic music. Yes, I like Deadmau5. Depeche Mode's Enjoy the Silence was better on the SissySIT to my ears. Sissy seems to control the music. Where there's a sharp attack or decay... there's no wiggle. The J2's "mellow" character may not be the best match. Who knows?

The SissySIT seems to have a bit more control over the bass without being boomy. The SissySIT seems to have a bit less emphasis on the bass, but it could just be "tighter". I really don't know. Bela Fleck's Flight of the Cosmic Hippo is exceptional on both amps, but I prefer the J2 slightly both for the way the bass guitar sounds and the timbre of the banjo.

When listening to Alice In Chains' - Would, from Unplugged - the air of the surroundings filled my entire room with the J2. With the SissySIT, the "environment" didn't seem to be as all-encompassing, but instrument and vocal placement was perhaps a bit better. With all music, sounds from the J2 just seem to emerge. With the SissySIT, it's like pointing to a place and saying, yep... right there in that 3D space ... that's where it's coming from. The J2 is like floating in the ether with the music around me. Hard to describe, each instrument or person still has a place in space, but it's just in more space. The SissySIT is very precise, but with perhaps a smaller "sound stage". The same held true for Jackson Browne's Load Out / Stay and Meiko's Zombie.

Overall "listenability" with my cruddy recordings and sources - The J2 makes Adele's Rolling in the Deep from a streaming service listenable without cringing, and actually makes it enjoyable. The SissySIT softens that recording over say an F5, but still makes me want to move on to another song. Is the SissySIT more accurate? From what I've heard of how that song was recorded, you should cringe. Do you want to?

Emotion - I use Paul Simon's Homeless and Alison Krauss' Molly Ban to see what makes me get goosebumps. Dead tie. They're phenomenal.

JAM! Tool - Anema and Evanescence - Going Under. Dead tie. The J2 does urge me to crank it a bit more based on my history with both, but this was done level-matched.

Note - All music was streamed from Qobuz at 16/44.1 with the exception of Meiko's verson of Zombie which was streamed from my server. I wonder if Classical vinyl junkies that listen to easy-to-drive speakers would have the same observations...

Bass - Edge J2.
Timbre of Voices - Edge J2
Timbre of Guitars (Electric and Acoustic) - Edge J2
Detail - Edge SissySIT
"Air" - Edge J2
"Precise Imaging" - SissySIT
Makes garbage recordings listenable. Shirley Manson is always great, but you know what I mean - J2 by a length.

Once again... As anyone can tell, I am no reviewer. I made an honest attempt. These differences are SUBTLE. In some cases I may have found differences where there were none b/c I was focusing on differences. Also, as previously mentioned - I think my speakers need something special to make them work. Everyone's mileage may vary. If I hadn't become a "Greedy Boy" hooked on DIY - I could have put either in my system forever. These two amps have spent the most time in my system. There's a reason. Once they're in, I just listen. No need to screw with it.

Both amps are absolutely worthwhile builds. I love both. I'm thrilled I built both. Everyone should build both (if you can get SITs). :D

Final Answer - If someone said that I MUST choose... I'd hang on to the Babel J2, but I'd weep for my SissySIT and hope it went to a good home. I'd keep the Tokins though for another build... Those things are pricey. :D
 
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@Samuel - No Schade. ZM recommended that I not try that. I'm still pretty new to all this. I don't know what you mean by Darlington type. Best I can offer is that I got the GB kit from ZM and assembled it exactly per his schematics.

@chakija - send me a pair. Happy to give it a try. No guarantees you get them back though. :D

Edited to add - I also did not do the Borbely arrangement. I originally put that in, and then ZM advised that I take it out. I still have the pin headers in for the parts.
 
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You had a Patience, my Dear Watson ......

:clown:

My mother told me the good things come to those who wait. :D :clown:

Seriously though, I'm humbled that I've been able to learn how to assemble some absolutely incredible amplifiers and learn a bit about what makes them do the magic they do. :worship:

Before all this, I just hooked up a system and listened for 25 or so years. Now I want to learn more about the electronics... AND listen. Just finding some time these days for either is precious.

Hope you and yours are happy and healthy. :cheers:
 
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tnx for nice wishes about health ..... it seems these days that we all are ending plenty of our posts and messages and emails with - "be welll and safe!" ..... with reason ....

regarding Schade ...... there is no Schade in SissySIT ; it is in Babelfish J2 as an option , but in this moment I really can't remember did I cover it with measurements and all :rofl:

reason for my short memory ...... too much water under the bridge from start of this thread , and plenty of that water was and still is muddy

hope you guys, and your folks, are all well and safe ....

P.S. - for everything cheerful in posts above - blame Pa, as usual

:clown:
 
My mother told me the good things come to those who wait. :D :clown:

Seriously though, I'm humbled that I've been able to learn how to assemble some absolutely incredible amplifiers and learn a bit about what makes them do the magic they do. :worship:

Before all this, I just hooked up a system and listened for 25 or so years. Now I want to learn more about the electronics... AND listen. Just finding some time these days for either is precious.

Hope you and yours are happy and healthy. :cheers:

Thank you for the review ItsAllInMyHead. I'm sure the info is out there somewhere, but is your J2 is IRFP150's (no SemiSouth)? What transformer in the sissysit?
 
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ItsAllInMyHead,

Thanks for your feedback. If it was ZM's kit, the opto would have been 2N639, which is a Darlington type. Your description of Babel J2 sound, matches what is expected of an H2 dominant sonic signature. Schade feedback in SissySIT should be a game changer. ZM will surely chime in.

6N139, that's Darlington which I introduced later, as almost SwissKnife cure for less well behaved SIT Specimens


no place for Schade in SissySIT; SIT itself is having intrinsic Schade in it ( eons old fight - is triode just pentode with intrinsic feedback, or pentode is just triode with some positive feedback? :rofl: ) ........... while introducing Schade in IRFP9140 would end in too much of good thing ...... wimpy source follower
 
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Sorry for any confusion. I should have been a bit more clear.

For the SissySIT - ZM covered the Schade explanation. I think that was for M25. He covered the explanation of the opto. My SITs seemed to have been well-behaved, so I did not do any modifications. I had the boards that could be used for M25 or SissySIT. I forgot that he re-did the boards later. The FETs were the 9140s. No Borbely.

I should have clarified earlier - in addition to sourcing the Tokins, I used the Edcor transformers I had left from getting a batch for the M2x. I have a note from ZM in my "To Do" list that says to try Jensen. :D Desoldering those buggers is a challenge, so that will have to wait. I had to undo one in my Iron Pre build, and I really don't want to do it again. :eek:

For the Babel J2 - I used the IRFP150s that ZM sent. No SemiSouth parts. Once again though... I'll be somebody's bestest, bestest buddy forever and ever, if they want to send a set. :clown: Kidding. I have plenty of parts, and seeking more unobtainium parts goes against what I said I'd do. I went down the tube rabbit hole. Never again. :D

Thanks for the interest in my post. I think both these amps are exceptional. It'd be great if you all could just teleport to the room and listen. Maybe you guys can help me figure out a few things. We'd keep 6' apart. :D


Most importantly, my impressions will likely differ from everyone's because I'm deaf in one ear, and I can't hear out of the other. :joker:

Be well.
 
ItsAllInMyHead

Thank you for you thorough and well thought out comments.

In my experience with changing transformers - all with a F6 - I found that I liked the Onetics, Cinemags and Jensens in that order. My current F6 is using IRF150s. Unfortunately Onetics are no longer available. I believe Bud Purvine has retired.

What do I go to : SissySIT with THFs and Cinemags. I also have a VFET2 with pairs of output VFETs, the F6, Schaded M2 and a Toshiba M2.The M2s both have Edcors. They are all excellent !! I could live with any of these. Will try the Singing Bush and maybe a Mike R 193V with 2Sk180s. It's my hobby (and it keeps my brain functional) :D

Caveat - this is with my speakers, my room and with the vinyl I have.

Again thank you for sharing !!! and thanks to all who participate here :)

Best to all

Bob
 
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... Desoldering those buggers is a challenge, so that will have to wait. I had to undo one in my Iron Pre build, and I really don't want to do it again. :eek:.......

considering that you'll continue with addiction (as any addict is supposed to), do not hesitate to invest in proper desoldering station

there are plenty of these around, but I can vouch for ZHONGDI ZD-8925, available in my neck of wood for less than 100 Greenies

I've just recently obtained one, now asking my self how I could live without one, all these years ....... bummer is - I'm using really high-end manual solder-pumps for years, but I'm finally fed up with these, simply realizing that there is better solution and that there is no work such small to not deserve having and using it

after last BAF I visited my AR2 in LA, and we had some fun for several days, and there I was working with his gargantuan sized desoldering station... finally out of tunnel experience

silly ZM

:)
 
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ZM - You are a magical / mystical being. I did treat myself to a Hakko FR-300 or 301. Can't remember exactly. I had to learn to not lift pads with it. It can get HOT. I used old computer motherboards to practice. I also have discovered the magic of a proper and good solder wick. Chem Wick is now my wick of choice. I have a SoldaPullt too. Mainly, some of this comes from making so many errors on so few projects. :D

With some practice for small things, my favorite method is some Kaptan tape and a hot air station to remove the part - then I clean up the pads with wick.

I'm sad to say that I don't know what the "AR2" may be.

As a semi-famous 80's band said... Ma, Ma, Ma, Ma, Weer all Crazee Now. :joker:
 
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+1 for the Hakko FR-301.

Wonderful write-up IAIMH! :cheers:

The Onetics came with my F6 kit so I guess I owe them a more critical listen. I have Cinemags in my SissySIT - Low Nickel in #1 and High Nickel in #2. I don't think I can compare them yet but after reading your impressions, I'll have to get on the BabelJ2 boards I have hidden away!

... and yes, as ZM said earlier - stay safe everyone and stay healthy!
:cheers:
 
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ZM - You are a magical / mystical being. I did treat myself to a Hakko FR-300 or 301. Can't remember exactly. I had to learn to not lift pads with it. It can get HOT. I used old computer motherboards to practice. I also have discovered the magic of a proper and good solder wick. Chem Wick is now my wick of choice. I have a SoldaPullt too. Mainly, some of this comes from making so many errors on so few projects. :D

With some practice for small things, my favorite method is some Kaptan tape and a hot air station to remove the part - then I clean up the pads with wick.

I'm sad to say that I don't know what the "AR2" may be.

As a semi-famous 80's band said... Ma, Ma, Ma, Ma, Weer all Crazee Now. :joker:

AR2 is Master Burner, Vladimir Simović (Simovich for you non-Slavic Greedy Boyz)

regarding desolder (standalone gun or station, whatever), key for proper operation is enough heat and smooth fast..... that would be 390C, approx. 2 secs of heating/melting , then approx. 1sec of pumping

no proper pad would go in 3secs

of course , more massive pad demands increase in time for, say, 50% but - more massive pad is less prone of going Dodo
 
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Dennis and Twitchie - Thank your for the kind words.

Twitchie - When I finally get a chance to get a soldering iron hot again, I have some F6 boards I need to build. I stole the Jensens from the kits to build the Iron Pre, which I :hbeat:.

When I put the ACP+ with the Babel J2 it was on a whim to see how "Baby J2" would work with Babel J2. So now, I want to try iron with iron.

The Iron Pre will go in next to the SissySIT for another fun "experiment". I have no idea if that makes sense or not, but I'm going to try it. I liked the lower gain of the Iron Pre with the Babel J2 for some reason or another. In this latest back to back, the SissySIT had noticeably lower volume at the same settings as the Babel J2. That's why I level-matched. So, I want to try Iron Pre with both 6dB and 12dB of gain with the SissySIT and perhaps swap back and forth with the Babel J2 again.

Then, sometime in the future, I want to try AVC for attenuation. Iron within Iron, with Iron. Why not? A Black Sabbath song comes to mind. :D

I'll try all 31 flavors at the ice cream shop and then mix them up. Kidding... but only a little. :D I'm still a 4-year-old at heart. Some people love triple chocolate, some love Neapolitan. Who would mix orange sherbet with chocolate gelato...? Me.

ZM - I learned a lot by trial and error on old boards and watched some YouTube videos. I lifted a lot of pads and traces on older boards. The layers between seemed like loose cardboard. New boards are a breeze. However, I am glad I practiced on old ones first. I can destroy even a new board if I'm not careful. Anything with multiple layers and through-holes or vias between layers... I have to be especially careful.

So, a Public Service Announcement to other noobs like me that think the Hakko will solve all de-soldering problems... It's AWESOME!, but practice first.

HA! I thought AR2 was maybe an Acoustic Research clone you had built or something similar. I searched your blog for an article :rofl: