It reminds us that it is important to understand the function of the entire chain. Most of the 'better' DACs have their own USB/I2S, FIFO and reclock built in. They use clocks such as Crystek or Accusilicone. So feeding them with FIFO equipped with SOTA clocks is kind of pointless. It is like using an integrated amp with a SOTA preamp in front of it. You are still listening to the integrated. IMHO, Ian's FIFO stack is most effective when paired with a very well implemented single purpose DAC. Then you are effectively emulating very hi end products at DIY prices.
Why not try a slight bend in the legs to increase pressure on the socket? In my experience a good connection is key to good sound. Long before they fail to work due to a poor clock signal connection you see sound degradation as if you are using higher phase noise clocks. I use a cable between the clock and FIFO. SMA sounds better than ufl. Even applying proper torque to the SMA connection can be heard.
Certainly soldering direct to the board might be best, but then you lose the flexibility FIFO offers to try different clocks.
If you bend a leg, secure the leg close to the clock with needle nose plyers and bend the leg, not the attachment point. Same with capacitors when bending the leads.
@wlowes
I ask here wat I need to build the flagship streamer and nobody knows about this problem with the i2s connection and I told I use the Denafrips Terminator Plus: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...eapon-to-fight-the-jitter.192465/post-7380734
I know I must do my own research about this issue 😉
Regards,
Rudy
I ask here wat I need to build the flagship streamer and nobody knows about this problem with the i2s connection and I told I use the Denafrips Terminator Plus: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...eapon-to-fight-the-jitter.192465/post-7380734
I know I must do my own research about this issue 😉
Regards,
Rudy
I have a Soekris Dam1021 DAC. It reclocks the signal using its own clocks. I am not going wild for a streamer for it. Other owners have noticed differences with reclockers upstream, but that is versus coming directly off the Raspberry Pi. I am just going to use my Raspberry Pi 3B > FIFO Pi Ultimate (with Crystek Clocks) > Transport Pi and get a Pure Pi for power convenience with an iFi IPower PS. Not going to upgrade it further with since I have all the parts except for the PurePi already.
I also have 8 channels of AK4493 DAC. I can run these synchronously so I will use the SCPures and UCPures with a McFIFO/McDual XO setup for best sound quality. I will spend the money here since it will most likely have an effect on the DAC output.
I also have 8 channels of AK4493 DAC. I can run these synchronously so I will use the SCPures and UCPures with a McFIFO/McDual XO setup for best sound quality. I will spend the money here since it will most likely have an effect on the DAC output.
Ok. Update. I just took apart my DAC stack to do this (top two boards) and what I found was - the clocks are tightly seated like the default clocks were.
My assumption is that after a good 300 hours of running at 85C - or whatever their temp is - they ‘self seated’ due to expansion of metal. After all it is maybe 0.5 thousandths of an inch play on the radius.
But to be scientific - can anyone else report the same after 2 solid weeks of burnin 24x7 power to the clocks?
My theory on this whole thing - and why I didn’t put SCPure in my Ian streamer - is that ‘last DAC in the chain wins’ I.e. determines audio quality or SQ of the whole system. So you want your best DAC and clocks and or reclocking in the final box as it will override what is coming into it unless there was some kind of ‘pass through’ mode. Why would a vendor allow that mode? - they want you to use THEIR clocks and DAC chip or FPGM algo otherwise why would they be in business?
In my case I built a separate streamer on purpose to feed to my Cambridge DACMagic. It did improve but only because the DACMagic streamer was Bluetooth based. So the SharePlay Ian pi based streamer I built sounded better - but not an order of magnitude better.
The order of magnitude better came when I built my Ian DAC stack with FIFO and SCPure and turned on synchronous mode and connected streamer to DAC via HDMIPro out to ReceiverPiProII input on DAC. Then I was cooking with fire 🔥.
You mileage may vary with other DACs. My commercial DAC was midrange.
Just sharing my experiences.
Hi,
Now I got the reaction from Denafrips.
So they confirm wat we thought.
"The DENAFRIPS DAC reclocks all inputs using its internal crystals. However, it's worth noting that a better streamer with a good clock can still have a significant impact on the quality of the digital signal processing.
While the DAC itself is capable of reclocking the signal, the addition of a good streamer can further enhance the overall performance of the digital audio chain.
Hope this helps! "
Now I got the reaction from Denafrips.
So they confirm wat we thought.
"The DENAFRIPS DAC reclocks all inputs using its internal crystals. However, it's worth noting that a better streamer with a good clock can still have a significant impact on the quality of the digital signal processing.
While the DAC itself is capable of reclocking the signal, the addition of a good streamer can further enhance the overall performance of the digital audio chain.
Hope this helps! "
I'm not sure about that, I mean this: "While the DAC itself is capable of reclocking the signal, the addition of a good streamer can further enhance the overall performance of the digital audio chain."
If they have a good inputs, FiFo and a good clock, which I don't doubt, then you can connect an ordinary PC to Usb on Terminator and it will sound great, it won't almost make any difference whatever streamer (unless the streamer is below every level) you set up on it. That's why I think that these two streamers sound the same because they are both at the maximum that Terminator can do.
Of course if they solved the inputs in the same level of quality (some DACs sound better on SPDIF, some on usb some on I2S, some sound the same on all inputs it all depends on how the inputs are implemented).
The equipment manufacturer will never tell you that this is the maximum that their equipment can do. It's like that with everyone. Everything has its limits.
That's why, if you noticed, they always use the same phrase "can" further enhance etc...
Sometime in the past I had a similar situation with Parasound equipment.
Maybe with the software you manage to get a slightly different presentation and that's it. Let's say use HQ Player and play with filters, upsampling and DSD conversions.
If they have a good inputs, FiFo and a good clock, which I don't doubt, then you can connect an ordinary PC to Usb on Terminator and it will sound great, it won't almost make any difference whatever streamer (unless the streamer is below every level) you set up on it. That's why I think that these two streamers sound the same because they are both at the maximum that Terminator can do.
Of course if they solved the inputs in the same level of quality (some DACs sound better on SPDIF, some on usb some on I2S, some sound the same on all inputs it all depends on how the inputs are implemented).
The equipment manufacturer will never tell you that this is the maximum that their equipment can do. It's like that with everyone. Everything has its limits.
That's why, if you noticed, they always use the same phrase "can" further enhance etc...
Sometime in the past I had a similar situation with Parasound equipment.
Maybe with the software you manage to get a slightly different presentation and that's it. Let's say use HQ Player and play with filters, upsampling and DSD conversions.
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Alvin from Vinshine is great at saying things without saying a lot, great marketeer 🙂
Pre-12th edition Denafrips DACs buffered and reclocked all inputs. Implying that source clocking simply cannot matter - besides the more far-fetched point that DDCs can provide an extra layer of isolation / EM-damping.
I’m not sure about the 12th edition units, but if they would not reclock I2S inputs then there is your chance to improve SQ with a good source.
Pre-12th edition Denafrips DACs buffered and reclocked all inputs. Implying that source clocking simply cannot matter - besides the more far-fetched point that DDCs can provide an extra layer of isolation / EM-damping.
I’m not sure about the 12th edition units, but if they would not reclock I2S inputs then there is your chance to improve SQ with a good source.
Thank you @BMW850 for reaching out to Alvin. Unfortunately, our suspicions have been confirmed, and this clarifies why there's minimal sound variation between different streamers, even with I2S input. While a high-quality streamer might provide slight improvements, clock changes won't yield significant results.
In cases where Dacs lack the option to bypass internal reclocking , it's advisable to consider adding a Dac board and and output stage to create your own Dac/Streamer setup, as we're almost there. You can also use the Dac as is while keeping your changes in streamer expectations low or invest in a Dac that let you bypass the internal clocks.
I could be wrong in my logic but I seem to lean more and more in that direction lately.
dddac has no masterclock, and works perfect together with FiFoPi Q7.
I changed to the accusilicon after almost two weeks with Ian’s SC clocks, and there is a significant difference. SC is better all over. More analog/natural, less digital sounding. Happy old fart here🤣
I changed to the accusilicon after almost two weeks with Ian’s SC clocks, and there is a significant difference. SC is better all over. More analog/natural, less digital sounding. Happy old fart here🤣
As expected. I use a very simple but well implemented DIY DAC. Clock phase noise is obvious in the sound. But for DACs like the Terminator it makes no sense to invest in a clock upgrade. Terminator may sound great, and it may benefit from isolation but most of the FIFOpi function is lost on it.
This may partially explain the vicious debates we saw on the clock threads with some seeing no sound impact and others gob struck.
This may partially explain the vicious debates we saw on the clock threads with some seeing no sound impact and others gob struck.
Agree. In my tests quality is coming from FiFoPiQ7, SCpure clocks, dual mono ESS 9038 DAC board and high quality analog output board XLR. OPA861IV. Without that as the last component streamer doesn’t sound near as good (ie transport to another DAC via SPIDIF coax).
redjr
Nothing wrong with that👍 I certainly pick my battles and only invest in the stuff that I think makes enough difference to impress my less than perfect ears. In my case I used the first generation Well Audio clock and got a big payback on a small investment over the NDKsd. Then upgraded out of curiosity to his opus and really could not justify that step economically. So I have a backup now.
Nothing wrong with that👍 I certainly pick my battles and only invest in the stuff that I think makes enough difference to impress my less than perfect ears. In my case I used the first generation Well Audio clock and got a big payback on a small investment over the NDKsd. Then upgraded out of curiosity to his opus and really could not justify that step economically. So I have a backup now.
@BMW850
I think you are right.
I have both Spring3 and Ares 12th. I got a big improvement to my Spring3 using FifoPiQ7, HdmiPiPro and SC-Pure clocks. However, the improvement to the Ares 12th is just minor(because EMI noise reduced), for me it's almost no difference too.
The reason could be that, the Halo DAC can stop internal clock with making use of external higher grade clock for the upgrade. But Denafrips's internal clock can not be stopped so the way of upgrading is blocked. I think it's just for marketing reason otherwise it's a stupide design.
I opened my Ares 12th and figure out the internal clocks are just for entry level. I will design an adapter to replace them with a pair of SC-Pure 45/49 clocks once I have time, that could be the only way to upgrade a Denafrips.
If you want a good R2R, I highly recommend the Halo spring3 or higher model for a big room of upgrading and improvement.
Ian
You raise a good point. There can be a lot to be gained by replacing the clock in these DAC's. Given the convenient form factor, SC-Pure could be very good.
Takes a brave soul as warranty will be pooched and maybe resale value. But sound could be elevated substantially and take it to a different level.
Takes a brave soul as warranty will be pooched and maybe resale value. But sound could be elevated substantially and take it to a different level.
