Vary cool...............
Getting to my Minors ........port are no port....looks like NO port wins...image matchs better....an tone in the stock setup...
I gess you run all active crossovers..... give a lot of room to make up these diff I hear....an the 26"ribbon 350hz....Wow ..
I get the.... could almost swim in the sound fild....an that's with just one port.. thanks for the info on the better drivers vrs the lower cost....partsEX has some 61/2" driver at a little over$4ea......that look great......
Getting to my Minors ........port are no port....looks like NO port wins...image matchs better....an tone in the stock setup...
I gess you run all active crossovers..... give a lot of room to make up these diff I hear....an the 26"ribbon 350hz....Wow ..
I get the.... could almost swim in the sound fild....an that's with just one port.. thanks for the info on the better drivers vrs the lower cost....partsEX has some 61/2" driver at a little over$4ea......that look great......
Bill....if you use the $4.88 a pop woofers from PE, I expect you will be happy.
Without the subs connected, there was a decent amount of bass in my smallish room similar in depth to the bass of the Continuums. And excellent integration. In fact I could listen to much of my music without the subs quite happily.
Damic... No measurements......just ears and a Radio Shack db meter.
Tyu.... The PE woofers are the ones I am using.
Peter
Without the subs connected, there was a decent amount of bass in my smallish room similar in depth to the bass of the Continuums. And excellent integration. In fact I could listen to much of my music without the subs quite happily.
Damic... No measurements......just ears and a Radio Shack db meter.
Tyu.... The PE woofers are the ones I am using.
Peter
I did the sums and reckoned I could push the bass to 60Hz if I limited peak SPL. But I have to stick with the stock minor width. If I could place my sub centrally no problem. But I can't. It's clear why so many OBs roll off at 120Hz. I think the ripoles are the right answer.
I need a bigger house!
I need a bigger house!
Stage bass panel fix with PEQ
Hi,
For people with some kind of dsp (EQ) included in system, there is the possibility to reduce or totally remove the buzz problem.
I had buzz on my left Stage bass panel. Firstly, using REW program I localize that buzz appear on 42 and 48Hz, well, below the bas panel operational range, but on the high levels, it was very noticeable. Btw, I have active system, Mini Grand style with subs beneath the Stages. Bass panel is crossed on 80Hz and 400Hz with 24LR.
After localization, I applied one PEQ (centr.fr. 46Hz, Q=10 and negative gain of 12dB) and the buzz disappeared, as you can see on the graph.
A friend of mine, using the same method fixed the buzz on his Duetta Signatures. One bass panel had the buzz at 230Hz and second at 270Hz, as I remember. He applied attenuation of 15 and 18dB.
Hi,
For people with some kind of dsp (EQ) included in system, there is the possibility to reduce or totally remove the buzz problem.
I had buzz on my left Stage bass panel. Firstly, using REW program I localize that buzz appear on 42 and 48Hz, well, below the bas panel operational range, but on the high levels, it was very noticeable. Btw, I have active system, Mini Grand style with subs beneath the Stages. Bass panel is crossed on 80Hz and 400Hz with 24LR.
After localization, I applied one PEQ (centr.fr. 46Hz, Q=10 and negative gain of 12dB) and the buzz disappeared, as you can see on the graph.
A friend of mine, using the same method fixed the buzz on his Duetta Signatures. One bass panel had the buzz at 230Hz and second at 270Hz, as I remember. He applied attenuation of 15 and 18dB.
The 42/48Hz peaks you noticed are more likely inherent resonances associated with the panel tension and not poor edge-damping foam.
Your friends Duetta system with the higher frequency buzz is most likely foam related and the DSP notching seems a valid approach to minimizing it.
This, of course, is not a fix but rather a band-aid that "obscures" the issue in a narrow frequency range.
A proper fix is still best implemented by Olaf's silicone fluid insertion. However, excellent DIY ingenuity using DSP to target and minimize the issue without any speaker rework.
Cheers,
Dave.
Your friends Duetta system with the higher frequency buzz is most likely foam related and the DSP notching seems a valid approach to minimizing it.
This, of course, is not a fix but rather a band-aid that "obscures" the issue in a narrow frequency range.
A proper fix is still best implemented by Olaf's silicone fluid insertion. However, excellent DIY ingenuity using DSP to target and minimize the issue without any speaker rework.
Cheers,
Dave.
Stage amplification question
Hi everybody!
I have two simple questions.
1. Can the Apogee Stage work with a Quad 99 stereo amplifier?
2. How to fix a hole in the bass ribbon?
Hi everybody!
I have two simple questions.
1. Can the Apogee Stage work with a Quad 99 stereo amplifier?
2. How to fix a hole in the bass ribbon?
Of course, it can work but not very good, stock Stages needs a lot of power. I have 200W/8Ohm or close to 400W/4Ohm only on MRT and that works GREAT (active setup, so without passive XO ). Previously had amp with 120W/8Ohm on MRT and that was not enough.
WOW!
Both problems solved!
The bass ribbon was easy to fix(and it has a hole in it made by a kid, both sides of alu foil interupted). Anyone interested PM if interested.
I put the Quad amp to work (because it has overload protection) and it works perfectly. The Stage suck a lot of power (compared to JMLabs) and at full power the amp goes in protected mode.
The sound is very clean, voice is like real, chords instrumennts perfect.
I use Quad 99 amp, Rega Apollo cd player, Townshend Allegri pre, F1 Fractal interconects.
Apogee is incredible!!!
Both problems solved!
The bass ribbon was easy to fix(and it has a hole in it made by a kid, both sides of alu foil interupted). Anyone interested PM if interested.
I put the Quad amp to work (because it has overload protection) and it works perfectly. The Stage suck a lot of power (compared to JMLabs) and at full power the amp goes in protected mode.
The sound is very clean, voice is like real, chords instrumennts perfect.
I use Quad 99 amp, Rega Apollo cd player, Townshend Allegri pre, F1 Fractal interconects.
Apogee is incredible!!!
The difference between your 120W amp and your 200W amp is only 2.2dB. That doesn't sound enough to make any significant difference unless the 120W amp was barfing into a 4Ohm load, but as the MRT is almost totally resistive? Something else must be going on.
most dont realize that the Apogee bass panel is the star of the show in these designs. many think the mrt is great and it is BUT the bass panel is the real talent. i spent 5 yrs developing two bass panel designs to try to compete. They were not at all like anything I have seen on market and they simply didnt reach the level of sonic that the App bass panel did so I shelved it. For now 😉. During this time I also worked on cone bass units and found that anything over about 8 inch just didnt do it justice. The finess that panel has as it transitions above about 700 hz is critical. You need a very well behaved woofer to compete. Yes big woofers are nice for moving air but they simply dont have the mids coverd well enough to compare to the App bass.
The easyest fix I found to "the buzz" was the "flowable silicone". It soaked into the roted foam and solidly but flexibly terminated the edge of the diaphragms. AND I didnt have to do both sides as the silicone adhears well enough and holds well enough that the foil cant move enough to slap the other side sooo no magnet removal nessasary.
If I get a chance I may post one of the woofer protos just for a laugh ha...
The easyest fix I found to "the buzz" was the "flowable silicone". It soaked into the roted foam and solidly but flexibly terminated the edge of the diaphragms. AND I didnt have to do both sides as the silicone adhears well enough and holds well enough that the foil cant move enough to slap the other side sooo no magnet removal nessasary.
If I get a chance I may post one of the woofer protos just for a laugh ha...
I agree, but these 2,2dB was just what 120W amp was missing at the higher levels. According to my experience, 400W/4Ohms on MRT and the same power on the bass panel is the right measure for active setup. Every of about ten pairs of Apogee with stock xo I have opportunity to hear, were with under-powered amps.
I only have a small listening room so will see. IF you are right I need 5x the power for my ribbons. We shall see.
If you read the beginning of this thread I think you will find most DO realise this, but fact remains no replacements available from anywhere. So if the bass ribbon is stuffed and tape, prayer and silicon can't fix it, something else has to be tried 🙂.
In my experience power alone is not the end all to good sound in these designs. Sure solid current dilivery can play a bit louder but...
The silicone "fix" is a band aid that works as far as the buzz goes. In fact it works so well many will say that band aid is not a good word. However that in no way means the issues associated with an old diaphragm are fixed too. Typically problems with the frame and the diaphragm possibly being tweeked a bit result in a diaphragm thats simply not tensioned uniformly anymore, nore can it be and therfore will not have the motional control of a freshly installed diaphragm. Fortunatly for the ave DIY guy they still have a great midrange and reasionable bass tune dispite this.
My own development work on ribbons show that the silicone termination does have issues BUT its effect on sonics is small. Its not as well damped at the edge as the foam will be. However this is really more to do with long term reliability than sound quality. Terminating the edge of the diaphragm with the viscus foam helps tame distructive resonance energy that tends to concentrate in this area. The silicone is less "lossy" and will likley reflect the energy more. In my own design work a well matched foam will increase the life of the ribbon.
Some believe there is somthing wrong with the App design as the magnets dont cover the wwhole diaphragm area. This is actually a good thing for the midrange. Its better damped this way and less tensioned film resonant. However dynamics are a bit softer as a result.
Billshurv, what mean " stuffed and tape" ?
The silicone "fix" is a band aid that works as far as the buzz goes. In fact it works so well many will say that band aid is not a good word. However that in no way means the issues associated with an old diaphragm are fixed too. Typically problems with the frame and the diaphragm possibly being tweeked a bit result in a diaphragm thats simply not tensioned uniformly anymore, nore can it be and therfore will not have the motional control of a freshly installed diaphragm. Fortunatly for the ave DIY guy they still have a great midrange and reasionable bass tune dispite this.
My own development work on ribbons show that the silicone termination does have issues BUT its effect on sonics is small. Its not as well damped at the edge as the foam will be. However this is really more to do with long term reliability than sound quality. Terminating the edge of the diaphragm with the viscus foam helps tame distructive resonance energy that tends to concentrate in this area. The silicone is less "lossy" and will likley reflect the energy more. In my own design work a well matched foam will increase the life of the ribbon.
Some believe there is somthing wrong with the App design as the magnets dont cover the wwhole diaphragm area. This is actually a good thing for the midrange. Its better damped this way and less tensioned film resonant. However dynamics are a bit softer as a result.
Billshurv, what mean " stuffed and tape" ?
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well as Lucian had a break in his bass panel he probably taped it and people are stuffing silicone sealant in. You have to bodge fix Stage panels.
lowmass,
You must be new. 🙂
I realized the bass panel was the star of the show when I first listened to a pair of Apogee's in the mid 80's. Re-confirmed when I listened to a set of Duetta's a couple of years later...which I purchased. I believe nearly all Apogee owners understand this performance aspect.
Your bass panel failures are beside the point regards the topic of this thread. Apogee Stage bass panel deterioration and foam deterioration are simply not 100% fixable by Apogee owners. Thus, we are left with only two options to keep the Stage speakers on the air. Turn them into a hybrid system as some have done (my example is for a Duetta), OR perform some type of foam repair/refurbishment. Olaf's silicone procedure is, by far, the best effort I've seen for the second option. Nobody is saying there aren't some trade-offs involved when introducing the silicone.....but it remains an excellent "band-aid" procedure.
If you/anybody has something (potentially) better in mind for Stage repair, please offer it up in this thread.
Cheers,
Dave.
You must be new. 🙂
I realized the bass panel was the star of the show when I first listened to a pair of Apogee's in the mid 80's. Re-confirmed when I listened to a set of Duetta's a couple of years later...which I purchased. I believe nearly all Apogee owners understand this performance aspect.
Your bass panel failures are beside the point regards the topic of this thread. Apogee Stage bass panel deterioration and foam deterioration are simply not 100% fixable by Apogee owners. Thus, we are left with only two options to keep the Stage speakers on the air. Turn them into a hybrid system as some have done (my example is for a Duetta), OR perform some type of foam repair/refurbishment. Olaf's silicone procedure is, by far, the best effort I've seen for the second option. Nobody is saying there aren't some trade-offs involved when introducing the silicone.....but it remains an excellent "band-aid" procedure.
If you/anybody has something (potentially) better in mind for Stage repair, please offer it up in this thread.
Cheers,
Dave.
took me a while to understand that
failure?? not really sure how to respond Davey.
I believe I referd to the "band aid" as a very good one.
Are we free to talk in this forum or is there too much tension for that?
billshurv, ok I see. Yea my Stages never had a hole. Did the flow silicone thing to the foam about 8 yrs ago. Foam was almost dust in many places.Buzz gone BUT there were warps in the panels that could not be tensioned out so limited volume possable. Made a few flat diaphragms of various film and foil thicknesses from 4 micron up to 1 mill. None were great but did preety good if used nodal buttons like on the Maggies. Eventually I built corrugated bass panels. these were much better than the flat panels and didnt need the buttons BUT the App panel was a tad better especially in the 200 to 400 hz range where panels tend to go crazy.
failure?? not really sure how to respond Davey.
I believe I referd to the "band aid" as a very good one.
Are we free to talk in this forum or is there too much tension for that?
billshurv, ok I see. Yea my Stages never had a hole. Did the flow silicone thing to the foam about 8 yrs ago. Foam was almost dust in many places.Buzz gone BUT there were warps in the panels that could not be tensioned out so limited volume possable. Made a few flat diaphragms of various film and foil thicknesses from 4 micron up to 1 mill. None were great but did preety good if used nodal buttons like on the Maggies. Eventually I built corrugated bass panels. these were much better than the flat panels and didnt need the buttons BUT the App panel was a tad better especially in the 200 to 400 hz range where panels tend to go crazy.
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