Steve,
Probably it's best to assume that one can never really hope to understand the logic of which patents are granted. Recall, it involves lawyers, whose job it is to confuse the facts of the matter! I'm an inventor on several patents, and by the time the lawyers finish writing the applications I don't even understand them.
I must admit that I'm curious about the software that one got with the NXT license. It does seem that it would be outdated by now, some 20 years later, but all the same I would be interested to have a copy, if it were available.
To be sure, the FEA software that I use is not really a substitute for the NXT software. I use a primitive, general purpose FEA code that can predict the natural frequencies of a panel given its elastic properties and boundary conditions, and nothing more. It certainly does not even attempt to predict the SPL vs. frequency response of a panel. Like Christian and Paul, I can wish for such a thing, but I fear that it's outside of my grasp.
Eric
The most interesting part of Ammos product is the triangular down-firing woofer box, rather than the glass sheet protruding above, when I think about it more and more. True, the up-firing two actuators/transducers firmly touching 4mm glass sheet became the subject of interest due to our DML interest here, so few experiments with up-firing transducer with different materials. Sony, by the way, showed that a top closed glass (or similar) tube gives omni sound with at least 3 up-firing actuators under the edge. Two actuators connected to two stereo channels gave quite full room filling sound when a tall drinking glass was held tightly over them at opposite edges. I placed a heavy book over the drinking glass, so I can take my hands of it, so walk around. Well, anyone who has two actuators can do this experiment. Tall drinking glasses and heavy books are normally available. 🙂
Now, as I mentioned above, the triangular down-firing woofer box became the subject of interest. You see, instead of "actuators" there could be two smallish tweeters placed just under the open groove, and that triangular box becomes a speaker. The space below the tweeters can be sealed so whatever back sound would only go through the curved bass-reflex tube.
The Ammos people were trying to prove that a vertical glass sheet would transfer sound out from an up-firing actuator. This is true, but it also becomes a sales gimmick -- you can put some LED lights underneath, like Sony. I know for sure that up-firing tweeters doesn't change the sound you hear, in a normal room that most of us have. Mine is 4.8m x 3.8m, 3m high. Contrary to the general belief, I think the thinner sounds come at you (attacks you) faster than the boom sounds.
Now, as I mentioned above, the triangular down-firing woofer box became the subject of interest. You see, instead of "actuators" there could be two smallish tweeters placed just under the open groove, and that triangular box becomes a speaker. The space below the tweeters can be sealed so whatever back sound would only go through the curved bass-reflex tube.
The Ammos people were trying to prove that a vertical glass sheet would transfer sound out from an up-firing actuator. This is true, but it also becomes a sales gimmick -- you can put some LED lights underneath, like Sony. I know for sure that up-firing tweeters doesn't change the sound you hear, in a normal room that most of us have. Mine is 4.8m x 3.8m, 3m high. Contrary to the general belief, I think the thinner sounds come at you (attacks you) faster than the boom sounds.
In addition to above post #7342, a bit off topic, but connected.
I believe, we have been trying out DMLs in search of omnidirectionality of sound. I've been placing commercially available speakers up-firing to get that feeling for last few years, the speaker plane more or less in the ear height when sitting. I have few speakers sets to experiment with. Lately, I bought LG speakers quite cheap by chance, not from ebay and very much cheaper. The thing is I cannot place them up-firing, as there is a hole in the back, most probably bass reflex. I can't find any info/video about anyone dismantling such speakers to see what's inside. So, placed them normally, that is, tweeters at about ear level, 92cm above floor, 8cm from the wall. There's still 208cm to the ceiling from the top of the speakers.
Now, the interesting fact. Music appears to come halfway above the speakers, filling the room. Very interesting hearing classical music, with orchestra before you. It is as though there are no speakers in the room. My wife, a former music teacher, finds this situation interesting.
Sure, this is sort of off topic, but...
The question is, why the sound/music appears to come halfway above the speakers and behind the wall, and why the speakers get lost...and the back wall too.
I believe, we have been trying out DMLs in search of omnidirectionality of sound. I've been placing commercially available speakers up-firing to get that feeling for last few years, the speaker plane more or less in the ear height when sitting. I have few speakers sets to experiment with. Lately, I bought LG speakers quite cheap by chance, not from ebay and very much cheaper. The thing is I cannot place them up-firing, as there is a hole in the back, most probably bass reflex. I can't find any info/video about anyone dismantling such speakers to see what's inside. So, placed them normally, that is, tweeters at about ear level, 92cm above floor, 8cm from the wall. There's still 208cm to the ceiling from the top of the speakers.
Now, the interesting fact. Music appears to come halfway above the speakers, filling the room. Very interesting hearing classical music, with orchestra before you. It is as though there are no speakers in the room. My wife, a former music teacher, finds this situation interesting.
Sure, this is sort of off topic, but...
The question is, why the sound/music appears to come halfway above the speakers and behind the wall, and why the speakers get lost...and the back wall too.
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Hello Steve,
The posts around software (FEM software) are related to general FEM tools (not dedicated to DML) and free (Lisa, Elmer...)
Chdsl.
We are presuming that the actuators are upwards firing, but they could just as well be rocking motions actuators ?
And how well does the thicker rear glass prevent sound passing through?
Helium in this air gap would be interesting.
Steve.
We are presuming that the actuators are upwards firing, but they could just as well be rocking motions actuators ?
And how well does the thicker rear glass prevent sound passing through?
Helium in this air gap would be interesting.
Steve.
I had noticed that the older patients are enjoyable to read and very informative.
As you say the NXT patients are mind numbingly boring and painful to read and 90% of the patent seems to be just a stream of words just put together to confuse ?
That is why I try not to read any new patents unless I have to.
Steve.
Chdsl.
What they actually say is the actuators are placed invisibly close to the edges ?
Whatever that means?
We do not know what type of exciter or method they use to excite the glass.
Hitting the side of the glass seems a very inefficient way of exciting the glass ?
Steve.
What they actually say is the actuators are placed invisibly close to the edges ?
Whatever that means?
We do not know what type of exciter or method they use to excite the glass.
Hitting the side of the glass seems a very inefficient way of exciting the glass ?
Steve.
In my recordings I have noticed a phazy sound in the treble.
It sounds like it has been through a phase machine.
I now find it is the conversion to 128kb.
I have tried 256kb and it sounds a lot better.
In future I will be using 256kb.
Steve.
It sounds like it has been through a phase machine.
I now find it is the conversion to 128kb.
I have tried 256kb and it sounds a lot better.
In future I will be using 256kb.
Steve.
They say,
That was just an entry for an award, not yet a commercial product. If it ever happens, we'd know, that is, until someone takes them apart. Or, you have to contact Martin Steffner for details.
chdsl,
The Ammos speakers use a PLZT element to drive the glass and the Glass becomes a SAW transducer (Surface Acoustic Wave). Since the PLZT is a piezo-electric element it needs a voltage amplifier to drive it rather than the usual current amplifiers used to drive voice coils. One should note to that the piezo-electric is pretty efficient in driving the glass. so the voltage will be in the 12-24 volt range. The PLZT element is most likely from TDK as the produce the piezo-listen elements and I have had them make special elements for a Acoustic Optical elements for a laser project.
The Ammos speakers use a PLZT element to drive the glass and the Glass becomes a SAW transducer (Surface Acoustic Wave). Since the PLZT is a piezo-electric element it needs a voltage amplifier to drive it rather than the usual current amplifiers used to drive voice coils. One should note to that the piezo-electric is pretty efficient in driving the glass. so the voltage will be in the 12-24 volt range. The PLZT element is most likely from TDK as the produce the piezo-listen elements and I have had them make special elements for a Acoustic Optical elements for a laser project.
Chdsl.
They are now saying the actuators are placed subtly close to the edge of the glass ?
Steve.
They are now saying the actuators are placed subtly close to the edge of the glass ?
Steve.
tagis,
Are you sure they're not just regular old bending/flexural waves in the Ammos? I have to admit that I don't know much about SAWs, but I do find it hard to imagine that such a surface wave (despite its "acoustic" name) could move as much air as a bending wave. The animations shown in the Ammos video sure look like bending waves to me.
Concerning their decision to use edge excitement, I actually don't find that too surprising. A free edge will be an antinode for virtually all modes of vibration, so driving a free edge will excite a lot of modes.
It's interesting how we all see different things of interest in their design. For me, the thing I'm most curious about it why they chose to put a thick glass layer on one side. What did that actually achieve, beyond blocking (partially) the sound on one side? Is the gap small enough to get some effect like in the NXT patent for sealed enclosures?
I had to laugh when I caught this brief image in their video. Apparently a sharp pencil is critical!
Eric
Steve,
Like you, I'm not convinced that the actuators are upward firing, They could easily be side firing on the very edge. I'm not saying that I know, rather, just that I'm not convinced one way or the other yet.
Eric
In this Ammos matter, the contact person is Martin Steffner. He can be found at LinkedIn. https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-steffner-7446a1139 (link given by Dyson Award. He is an Industrial Designer from Austria. The image given by the Ammos, the actuators are up-firing. And the woofer is bottom firing.
They were actually students, when they entered the contest. It could be just one time effort, as students.
They were actually students, when they entered the contest. It could be just one time effort, as students.
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Do you have any pictures or drawings of the PLZT driver as I can find no information about them ?
Steve.
In the exploded view of the Ammos panel you can see the actuators screwed on to the bottom of the top aluminium bar.
The class slides down onto the bar and is held in place by the frame.
Is this the only contact the actuator has with the glass, through the aluminium bar?
Although to me it looks like there is a pin in the actuator that could go through the aluminium bar (or not) to the glass?
Which would make the actuator a type of solenoid?
This is why I an a little suspicious when they elude to the actuator being subtly close to the edge of the glass?
Steve.
https://www.yankodesign.com/2020/12...tal-clear-audio-was-designed-for-disassembly/
The class slides down onto the bar and is held in place by the frame.
Is this the only contact the actuator has with the glass, through the aluminium bar?
Although to me it looks like there is a pin in the actuator that could go through the aluminium bar (or not) to the glass?
Which would make the actuator a type of solenoid?
This is why I an a little suspicious when they elude to the actuator being subtly close to the edge of the glass?
Steve.
https://www.yankodesign.com/2020/12...tal-clear-audio-was-designed-for-disassembly/
@spedge
This Ammos "product" is a contest entry, not a commercial product, done by industrial design students at Deft University of Technology, quite surely with the help of university technical teachers. They won the James Dyson award in 2020. As with all student projects, they end with the final result. The university archives are full of all kinds of super student projects all over the world. Most probably, you might be able to get some info on this speaker from the Delft Technical University, info@tudelft.nl Maybe, the results are not all that secret.
The link I posted in post #7357 is from the university itself. The fact that they won the James Dyson award says that they had achieved something. I'll be dismantling an old photo frame to get the thin glass sheet to experiment later.
This Ammos "product" is a contest entry, not a commercial product, done by industrial design students at Deft University of Technology, quite surely with the help of university technical teachers. They won the James Dyson award in 2020. As with all student projects, they end with the final result. The university archives are full of all kinds of super student projects all over the world. Most probably, you might be able to get some info on this speaker from the Delft Technical University, info@tudelft.nl Maybe, the results are not all that secret.
The link I posted in post #7357 is from the university itself. The fact that they won the James Dyson award says that they had achieved something. I'll be dismantling an old photo frame to get the thin glass sheet to experiment later.