Steve, am I wrong or you are using what I suggested above to add a dome tweeter to the fabric panel? Crossed at what freq?
Can you show pictures on how yo are using the wood foils?
Your second photo looks quite straight. What program are you using for measuring?
carlmart,
It's page 88, post 877. Spedge is the one to follow, though, for the current state of the art. I had just made the Nautaloss I and the XKi, both designs by XRK on this forum, and very responsive speakers, and I use mainly my canvas panels and a subwoofer (for the sub-40Hz notes, and the bass volume). I occasionally will combine all 3 sets. Mine is a bedroom setup, and is more than satisfactory. I must tell you that my hearing range is 20-8kHz, so I can't counsel you on the high frequency response. Spedge would be your best bet there. He is my guru on canvas panels, and a genius. If you are interested in very good sounding box speakers, see XRK (also a genius) over on the foamcore section. The 2 speaker setups I mentioned cost about $10 over the cost of the drivers, for the combined costs of both sets of speakers, and sound very good.
It's page 88, post 877. Spedge is the one to follow, though, for the current state of the art. I had just made the Nautaloss I and the XKi, both designs by XRK on this forum, and very responsive speakers, and I use mainly my canvas panels and a subwoofer (for the sub-40Hz notes, and the bass volume). I occasionally will combine all 3 sets. Mine is a bedroom setup, and is more than satisfactory. I must tell you that my hearing range is 20-8kHz, so I can't counsel you on the high frequency response. Spedge would be your best bet there. He is my guru on canvas panels, and a genius. If you are interested in very good sounding box speakers, see XRK (also a genius) over on the foamcore section. The 2 speaker setups I mentioned cost about $10 over the cost of the drivers, for the combined costs of both sets of speakers, and sound very good.
Thanks, Jaxboy. I found it.
I thinks it's in order for you to show me some images of your system, Nautaloss I and XKi. Is it possible?
I already wrote to Spedge, hopefully he will comment on my questions.
He seems to be using a dome tweeter, or am I wrong?
OffGridKindaGuy seems to use two different kinds of wood.
1) 3mm thich, 2" wide piece of some kind of wood (plywood?) to hold the DML in place. It's placed in an angle.
2) Probably a similar wood (?) for the round solid plate for the DML to vibrate.
3) Two 2" wide 11" long wood foil pieces, one he is not sure of, to dampen the canvas.
BTW, the DML seems not to be in the center of the canvas, is it?
The "flutter" he talks about that has to be controlled, in his using glue beads. seem to be the vibrant points the YouTube guy found and damped using sugar and a frequency sweep. Is that so?
I thinks it's in order for you to show me some images of your system, Nautaloss I and XKi. Is it possible?
I already wrote to Spedge, hopefully he will comment on my questions.
He seems to be using a dome tweeter, or am I wrong?
OffGridKindaGuy seems to use two different kinds of wood.
1) 3mm thich, 2" wide piece of some kind of wood (plywood?) to hold the DML in place. It's placed in an angle.
2) Probably a similar wood (?) for the round solid plate for the DML to vibrate.
3) Two 2" wide 11" long wood foil pieces, one he is not sure of, to dampen the canvas.
BTW, the DML seems not to be in the center of the canvas, is it?
The "flutter" he talks about that has to be controlled, in his using glue beads. seem to be the vibrant points the YouTube guy found and damped using sugar and a frequency sweep. Is that so?
Carlmart.
From my experience with thin ply in general and canvas, no tweeter is needed for HF ,the response from a ply canvas panel should easily reach from 40hz to 20k and above.
I'm only using the soft dome to try and cure a problem (I alone) have with the coil area and rear cavity.
Although it would be very simple to use a more efficient material for the dome to help increase the hf on a panel with a poor hf performance , which I have done to good effect in the past.
This is not a separate driver by the way, this is using the exciter coil to drive the dome.
I think you are looking at my photo's of the canvas panel without the ply panel in the middle.
I'm going back to the basics , and starting with a naked panel to see what is needed and what isn't.
So far the naked panel performs very well above about 300hz ,so if anyone only wants to use a panel above this frequency ,this is all that is needed.
For a strong output down to at least 40hz to produce a fullrange driver, a ply panel or something similar is needed to stiffen the central area.
This is an on going experiment at the moment ,altering things a little at a time to see or should I say hear what works and what does not.
This is the method I have used on all my various panels with good success.
I'm happy to answer any questions, if I can ,you just need to ask.
Steve.
From my experience with thin ply in general and canvas, no tweeter is needed for HF ,the response from a ply canvas panel should easily reach from 40hz to 20k and above.
I'm only using the soft dome to try and cure a problem (I alone) have with the coil area and rear cavity.
Although it would be very simple to use a more efficient material for the dome to help increase the hf on a panel with a poor hf performance , which I have done to good effect in the past.
This is not a separate driver by the way, this is using the exciter coil to drive the dome.
I think you are looking at my photo's of the canvas panel without the ply panel in the middle.
I'm going back to the basics , and starting with a naked panel to see what is needed and what isn't.
So far the naked panel performs very well above about 300hz ,so if anyone only wants to use a panel above this frequency ,this is all that is needed.
For a strong output down to at least 40hz to produce a fullrange driver, a ply panel or something similar is needed to stiffen the central area.
This is an on going experiment at the moment ,altering things a little at a time to see or should I say hear what works and what does not.
This is the method I have used on all my various panels with good success.
I'm happy to answer any questions, if I can ,you just need to ask.
Steve.
Jaxboy.
Sorry, I ment to get back to you a couple of days ago ,but thought I'd better look on YouTube and listen to some Dessay videos.
As usual after watching some of her old excellent videos I got side tracked with other links and the next thing I know ,like Microsoft ,but in a good way,two hours had gone by and it was time for bed😀
There is such good new stuff on YouTube ,such beautiful music and performances , some done in very simple settings,it's very hard to stop watching.
Steve.
Sorry, I ment to get back to you a couple of days ago ,but thought I'd better look on YouTube and listen to some Dessay videos.
As usual after watching some of her old excellent videos I got side tracked with other links and the next thing I know ,like Microsoft ,but in a good way,two hours had gone by and it was time for bed😀
There is such good new stuff on YouTube ,such beautiful music and performances , some done in very simple settings,it's very hard to stop watching.
Steve.
Steve,
My name is Carlos. I don't know why some assume is Carl, because of my chosen name.
Very nice idea to go to the beginning, and start all over again. I do need to get down to 40Hz, for the bedroom speakers I need to build. So I will follow your experiments on the ply panel necessary to stiffen the central area.
Why is it that your design can get up to 20K? Because of the canvas material?
The measurement on page 1 takes a dive after 5K, but he was using a different material.
Which is the new stuff you found in YouTube? I would like to look at it too.
Carlos
carlmart,
Spedge had posted a recording by Lorraine Hunt that really portrayed the emotion that she would put into her interpretation of arias she sang. I put up a recording by Natalie Dessay that I think shows a lot of emotion, too. He said he went on Youtube to hear more of her work.
Spedge had posted a recording by Lorraine Hunt that really portrayed the emotion that she would put into her interpretation of arias she sang. I put up a recording by Natalie Dessay that I think shows a lot of emotion, too. He said he went on Youtube to hear more of her work.
Carlmart.
Hi Carlos .
I have alway found ply to have a very good hf response, although not my favourite sounding panels ,they can still sound very good.
I initially thought the ply was producing the hf for the canvas panel , so was surprised when the hf was still present on the naked canvas panel, obviously it's more localised around the exciter area,but it is there.
This is where going back to the basics helps you understand how the panel really is working !!
The material on page one is foamcore and has a very poor hf response, it is basically xps which also has a poor response and is coated in paper which damps the xps even more.
The response would be better if you removed the paper ,lightly sanded the xps and gave it a coat of 50x50 pva.
Sorry if I miss understood you about the stuff I found on YouTube ,but are you talking about the new music I found on YouTube?
As I have not found any new materials?
Steve.
Hi Carlos .
I have alway found ply to have a very good hf response, although not my favourite sounding panels ,they can still sound very good.
I initially thought the ply was producing the hf for the canvas panel , so was surprised when the hf was still present on the naked canvas panel, obviously it's more localised around the exciter area,but it is there.
This is where going back to the basics helps you understand how the panel really is working !!
The material on page one is foamcore and has a very poor hf response, it is basically xps which also has a poor response and is coated in paper which damps the xps even more.
The response would be better if you removed the paper ,lightly sanded the xps and gave it a coat of 50x50 pva.
Sorry if I miss understood you about the stuff I found on YouTube ,but are you talking about the new music I found on YouTube?
As I have not found any new materials?
Steve.
I just took a quick photo of the full frequency response of the naked canvas panel.
This is so I know what happens when I apply the pva mix.
As it is ,you can see that applying a little eq to drop the response in the 500hz region will give you a pretty flat response from 20k down to 150hz.
And surprisingly the low end now goes down to 25hz admittedly this is at 12inches distance.
So the ply could be blocking the response below 40hz are well as increasing it above this?
mmmmmm interesting.
There must be a compromise somewhere?
This is so I know what happens when I apply the pva mix.
As it is ,you can see that applying a little eq to drop the response in the 500hz region will give you a pretty flat response from 20k down to 150hz.
And surprisingly the low end now goes down to 25hz admittedly this is at 12inches distance.
So the ply could be blocking the response below 40hz are well as increasing it above this?
mmmmmm interesting.
There must be a compromise somewhere?
Please, both of you please put the URLs of both YouTube songs? I didn't know that is what were talking about.
Bad Luck: I can't apply any eq with the D Breezy amp I'm using. Perhaps I should get another TPA amp with tone controls.
The problem is how to go up to 60dB in the 40 to 400 Hz. Even the system I'm using now, with full range Philips speaker probably gets down to 200, though I haven't measured it yet.
What are you using for you measurements? So we can sync watches. I don't have a measuring mic, but I have high quality professional mics, like AKG Blue line, which could work too. I also have a Tascam 4-channel pro recorder which I can use as preamp. But I need to use a program that generates the sweep and records it.
Bad Luck: I can't apply any eq with the D Breezy amp I'm using. Perhaps I should get another TPA amp with tone controls.
The problem is how to go up to 60dB in the 40 to 400 Hz. Even the system I'm using now, with full range Philips speaker probably gets down to 200, though I haven't measured it yet.
What are you using for you measurements? So we can sync watches. I don't have a measuring mic, but I have high quality professional mics, like AKG Blue line, which could work too. I also have a Tascam 4-channel pro recorder which I can use as preamp. But I need to use a program that generates the sweep and records it.
carlmart,
Just go to our posts over the last week or so to see the songs we posted. Try page 343, post 3429 for the Hunt song, and the Dessay one is on page 346, post 3459. Click on them and you can play them. Alternatively, go to Youtube and type in Lorraine Hunt and Natalie Dessay to see lists of their songs. The Dessay song was the Ophelia scene (end) from Hamlet. The Hunt song is "With darkness deep as is my woe". If you can use your computer to run your music through, you can download an equalizer software to use. I use Equalizer APO (Peace).
Just go to our posts over the last week or so to see the songs we posted. Try page 343, post 3429 for the Hunt song, and the Dessay one is on page 346, post 3459. Click on them and you can play them. Alternatively, go to Youtube and type in Lorraine Hunt and Natalie Dessay to see lists of their songs. The Dessay song was the Ophelia scene (end) from Hamlet. The Hunt song is "With darkness deep as is my woe". If you can use your computer to run your music through, you can download an equalizer software to use. I use Equalizer APO (Peace).
Last edited:
Steve,
Have you seen the YouTube videos where the person (I don't remember the name of) puts sugar over the surface, and then sweeps along several FR points until he finds resonance points, damping it and eliminating the resonance?
This could be used to add wood foil or thin plywood in small pieces. What about balsa wood? It's available in small pieces and thickness, and is very light.
Have you seen the YouTube videos where the person (I don't remember the name of) puts sugar over the surface, and then sweeps along several FR points until he finds resonance points, damping it and eliminating the resonance?
This could be used to add wood foil or thin plywood in small pieces. What about balsa wood? It's available in small pieces and thickness, and is very light.
Carlmart.
I have posted many recordings of my various panels and music on this site,you might be interested in pages 310 to 317 in which I talk and move the art panel around the room,on page 317 there is a full range plot at about 3ft i think ?
It's not easy trying to find posts on this site,even if they are yours .
No I have not seen that YouTube video.
I've lost track of how many times I've watched this video.
Agnes Obel - The Curse (Berlin Live Session) - YouTube
Steve.
I have posted many recordings of my various panels and music on this site,you might be interested in pages 310 to 317 in which I talk and move the art panel around the room,on page 317 there is a full range plot at about 3ft i think ?
It's not easy trying to find posts on this site,even if they are yours .
No I have not seen that YouTube video.
I've lost track of how many times I've watched this video.
Agnes Obel - The Curse (Berlin Live Session) - YouTube
Steve.
Steve,
Since everybody else calls you Steve, so will I. I just went to the Agnes Obel music video. Nice! I am in the process of downloading many of her other recordings now. Thanks for turning me on to her. She kinda reminds me of Sarah Slean, the Canadian singer
Since everybody else calls you Steve, so will I. I just went to the Agnes Obel music video. Nice! I am in the process of downloading many of her other recordings now. Thanks for turning me on to her. She kinda reminds me of Sarah Slean, the Canadian singer
Jaxboy.
Is there any chance of a recording from your phone of your panels ,if you have a smart phone that is ?
There are very good free apps you can download and some phones will record in stereo with very high quality ,such as my old galaxy note 4.
As for the video, I love watching the performance and listening to every click and pop noise they make ,so much detail,I love live music and I've missed it so much over the last few years.
I love such intimate performances,it's like you have your own personal performance just for you.
Carlos.
There is no problem getting down to 40hz with the ply and canvas panel at realistic levels,as long as you do not mount close to the wall ,but it you are into heavy loud rock you will probably have to reduce the LF below 40hz or so,to stop unnecessary exciter excursions.
EQ should not be necessary if designed correctly,
Your microphones should be great for recording your panels😀
But not sure about how accurate they would be for measuring ?
You could download pink noise to your computer ?
Not sure if audacity has test tones ?
Steve.
Is there any chance of a recording from your phone of your panels ,if you have a smart phone that is ?
There are very good free apps you can download and some phones will record in stereo with very high quality ,such as my old galaxy note 4.
As for the video, I love watching the performance and listening to every click and pop noise they make ,so much detail,I love live music and I've missed it so much over the last few years.
I love such intimate performances,it's like you have your own personal performance just for you.
Carlos.
There is no problem getting down to 40hz with the ply and canvas panel at realistic levels,as long as you do not mount close to the wall ,but it you are into heavy loud rock you will probably have to reduce the LF below 40hz or so,to stop unnecessary exciter excursions.
EQ should not be necessary if designed correctly,
Your microphones should be great for recording your panels😀
But not sure about how accurate they would be for measuring ?
You could download pink noise to your computer ?
Not sure if audacity has test tones ?
Steve.
Have you seen this YouTube:
How To Build DML Panel Speakers with Hidden Wall Mounts Fully Suspended - YouTube
Now I'm looking for the series of articles on this matter, where the guy tried several materials to apply vibration devices on.
It seems that you didn't read them.
How To Build DML Panel Speakers with Hidden Wall Mounts Fully Suspended - YouTube
Now I'm looking for the series of articles on this matter, where the guy tried several materials to apply vibration devices on.
It seems that you didn't read them.
I don't have access to the Dayton devices you seem to be using. Only these ones, through AE:
Aiyima mini alto falante portatil, coluna de 44/50mm, alcance completo, vibracao, portatil, ressonancia, para computador|vibration speaker|portable speakerresonance speaker - AliExpress
Alto falante baixa frequencia, vibracao, subwoofer, plano, ressonancia, som grave, musica, diy 8ohm 10w 30w, 1 peca|Alto-falantes portateis| - AliExpress
Answering your question: these speakers are to put in my bedroom to watch movies and series. They do seem to have low frequencies, but 40Hz it's my limit.
Power is an issue, so I would never ever go above 20W, that's why these devices seem ideal.
The Sub device I put I imagine should have its own panel, and it's own power channel. Those 2.1 TPA amps would do the job. Please tell me if this might be a way to achieve what I imagine.
Aiyima mini alto falante portatil, coluna de 44/50mm, alcance completo, vibracao, portatil, ressonancia, para computador|vibration speaker|portable speakerresonance speaker - AliExpress
Alto falante baixa frequencia, vibracao, subwoofer, plano, ressonancia, som grave, musica, diy 8ohm 10w 30w, 1 peca|Alto-falantes portateis| - AliExpress
Answering your question: these speakers are to put in my bedroom to watch movies and series. They do seem to have low frequencies, but 40Hz it's my limit.
Power is an issue, so I would never ever go above 20W, that's why these devices seem ideal.
The Sub device I put I imagine should have its own panel, and it's own power channel. Those 2.1 TPA amps would do the job. Please tell me if this might be a way to achieve what I imagine.
Last edited:
I was thinking that another area where vibrating panels might work is as surround speakers on my main HT room, don't you think?