Because buying another smaller driver to go in between the one you already have for a limited bandwidth doesn't make sense when the existing driver is already very capable of filling that role.
There is still the spectre of this post for me, re dedicated mid:
https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=14207460&postcount=6
https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=14207460&postcount=6
That's a Schrodinger poison bet when you can not test both. But I surmise fluid would agree with you sheeple... 74 mm horned dome in a 3 ways mid tweeter horned !
Notice I should have simply copied the OSMC design, but both the 3" Bliesma and the Volt are out of my budget... while I was not far to trigger on Audiotechnology for the midrange in more classic 6" size cone... but something says me it will marry not so good with a paper below like the 12PR320. The two ways are atractive passive cause the budget too in passive parts. and 3" again... are you all confortable with so few Sd to let it play lower than 800/900 hz ? Everyone is not an ATC loaded driver, ah !
Notice I should have simply copied the OSMC design, but both the 3" Bliesma and the Volt are out of my budget... while I was not far to trigger on Audiotechnology for the midrange in more classic 6" size cone... but something says me it will marry not so good with a paper below like the 12PR320. The two ways are atractive passive cause the budget too in passive parts. and 3" again... are you all confortable with so few Sd to let it play lower than 800/900 hz ? Everyone is not an ATC loaded driver, ah !
I think a DIY version of the KH420 is reasonably practical. I have investigated the possibility of using a Bliesma mid dome, I think it would work. Maybe the Scanspeak would work too for a much reduced price, but with the need to make a rear enclosure.
...some experienced production concinstency problems with the SS dome : mismatch of fine voice coil centring... certainly an outsourced production. The front bafle is maybe also hanging the dome... not easy for an external WG... at least tricky !
yest the one around 90 euros... you may have luck or not, better to test it rigth out of the box I have read and eventually get back it if needed... so reliable vendors only ! 🙂
The Vifa/SS dome is not going very low - Bliesma is doing way better here. And you have the option of a hard dome material which was benefitial in my listening test (at least for my use case - studio monitoring and mastering).
A HighEnd, high power main monitor is not come for super cheap ... I'm ok with that.
A HighEnd, high power main monitor is not come for super cheap ... I'm ok with that.
But not the op 😉 . It must stay within a budget. Hence the 2 ways or at least as an option a 3 ways with same requirement. Indeed not too much normal priced 3" domes are confortable below 900/800 hz and good enough transcient peaks for home living (109 to 112 dB max is usual for home use).
Maybe the new iteration of the TangBand in 3" or a more classic 2 incher domes from 900 hz (Visaton, Morel petit model). They all have a defaut : sensivity is a little weak for them with 90 db really usable and or verry narrow usable band... again not everyone is a Volt, ATC or Biesma.
The joker being how is sounding the Faital 12pr320 till the thousand hertz. Here the change is not possible as I own them.
As fluid is saying I have to test for real to know what please me best between the horn patern (narower spread) and a classic 3 ways ( larger spread)
Maybe the new iteration of the TangBand in 3" or a more classic 2 incher domes from 900 hz (Visaton, Morel petit model). They all have a defaut : sensivity is a little weak for them with 90 db really usable and or verry narrow usable band... again not everyone is a Volt, ATC or Biesma.
The joker being how is sounding the Faital 12pr320 till the thousand hertz. Here the change is not possible as I own them.
As fluid is saying I have to test for real to know what please me best between the horn patern (narower spread) and a classic 3 ways ( larger spread)
For 8-900Hz you can use the Dayton alu 2" mid dome. These are fantastic - when you get a good one ;-) (They where very stable for a long time but I think they had a bad charge a few years ago. Didn't bought a recent one, still have a few as backup).
These are the best 2" on the market, good sensitivity, great frequency response. For lower levels you can cross over even deeper - but that's not your goal.
The Tangband 3" (I know the old version) is also great and takes a lot of power. But sensitivity is way lower as a Bliesma. And they got more expensive, they where cheap in the beginning.
If you want a wide spread - there are PHL 5" midrange speaker which can go very loud and are not to expensive.
These are the best 2" on the market, good sensitivity, great frequency response. For lower levels you can cross over even deeper - but that's not your goal.
The Tangband 3" (I know the old version) is also great and takes a lot of power. But sensitivity is way lower as a Bliesma. And they got more expensive, they where cheap in the beginning.
If you want a wide spread - there are PHL 5" midrange speaker which can go very loud and are not to expensive.
thanks for your feedback. Yes read HTGuide fun guys that indeed the Dayton has heavy concistency problems. TangBand as well but I do not know about their newest products !
Visaton is a good company but its 2" dome is ferro fluided... PHL are made local in my country so I expect concistency and quality control if also the new line is still made there as the plant is a good industry cones makers that work oem too. Finally they went lower than their usual 6.5." ... I surmise they maybe made the aerogel in that plant for Audax they can not use anymore for patents reasons.
I regret not to see more often Peereless working on new products with more sensivity. Their pro line is more classic choice....paper !
well perhaps the wise is to go for larger horn to reduce the crossover cut-off with a 1.5" throat... not so many 1.5" compression has 600/700 hz low end and at the same time good behavior enough to avoid a treble unit... Smooth enough : maybe the new Faital 1460, expensive as a Bielsma though and horn remain in the bill. Not an option here.
Visaton is a good company but its 2" dome is ferro fluided... PHL are made local in my country so I expect concistency and quality control if also the new line is still made there as the plant is a good industry cones makers that work oem too. Finally they went lower than their usual 6.5." ... I surmise they maybe made the aerogel in that plant for Audax they can not use anymore for patents reasons.
I regret not to see more often Peereless working on new products with more sensivity. Their pro line is more classic choice....paper !
well perhaps the wise is to go for larger horn to reduce the crossover cut-off with a 1.5" throat... not so many 1.5" compression has 600/700 hz low end and at the same time good behavior enough to avoid a treble unit... Smooth enough : maybe the new Faital 1460, expensive as a Bielsma though and horn remain in the bill. Not an option here.
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TLHP has plenty of them on stock and they are not expensive: https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/brands-page/phl-audio/grave-medium/haut-parleurs-13-cm-5-pouce.html
If you cross over at 3-400Hz and need sensitivity their mid range model looks pretty good. And if you cut the front plate of the Bliesma you could get them very close together.
I used and still have the Daytons in a reference design and they do great! I think the silk version had bigger problems? As far as I know the actual ones are good again ... would give it a try if they fit, they are not expensive too.
If you cross over at 3-400Hz and need sensitivity their mid range model looks pretty good. And if you cut the front plate of the Bliesma you could get them very close together.
I used and still have the Daytons in a reference design and they do great! I think the silk version had bigger problems? As far as I know the actual ones are good again ... would give it a try if they fit, they are not expensive too.
If budget is important, just ask in swapmeet or some speakerbuilder group on Facebook, if someone in your country has some tweeter to sell for cheaps. If postage wasnt so expensive from my country I could sent you some CDs. If you get some dome tweeters, you can have some waveguides printet. Many people as I have way too much nice drivers laying around, that they know wont get used😄. Cheers!
I am afraid that you really do, the presentations will be different and without knowing ahead of time which of those you prefer makes it hard.
I am sure that you could make a nice speaker with the cheap Peerless compression driver and an ST260 to go with your 12PR320. I am also sure that you can make a nice top speaker in the vein of the Nova Andromeda with one of the 5 to 6" pro drivers, PHL, BMS, B&C etc.
You could make something like this for not much at all
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=6762
Test a couple of options actively with what you have in electronics so you don't waste much on passive crossover revisions.
If not pick a direction and optimize it the best you can with what you decide on.
Try and start with a design goal instead of picking a Fantasy Football team of drivers 🙂
Diyiggy, I agree with fluid when he says this...
However I understand it isn't that easy. It takes an understanding of how the system goes together, for example imagine that the individual parts don't mean anything at a system level as long as they come together to meet that system goal.
Sorry Diyiggy...I haven’t read this thread all the way through but what strikes me first is reaffirming your goals here with this system.....are we talking midfield home high fi?......is the space reasonably acoustically treated?
These things matter TREMENDOUSLY when considering a system, particularly when horns/waveguides are employed.....the use and purpose has been bastardized to fit goals than can often be overcome in other ways that make far more sense in a home environment
One only need examine mix and mastering studio photos to see what and how you’re favorite recordings are generated.....have you found mostly pix of horn loaded two way systems used in these environments?.....or do you see more traditional two and three ways in well treated spaces?
This all being said and considered, there’s a LOT of unverified acoustic theory thrown around these days as principle to prescribe to........most of it nonsense once you start playing complex musical material beyond test tones and sweeps....measurements become useless as the iterations become exponential quickly introducing more and more variables. What DOES NOT change is the room or environment and THIS is what matters most.
So considering your FP woofers.......these are intended as midbass drivers for high power handling, projecting systems ideally, BUT because they have some favorable uncharacteristic behaviors it’s use can be adapted to work favorably beyond that design parameters if you reconsider the room and use. It’s clear by the verified measures of this driver is that it is EXTREMELEY smooth in the 1-3khz range and only down 5db off axis......at at a relatively wide 45 degrees off axis.......not sure who listens within a stereo triangle at 45 degrees from each LP......sounds like some nonsensical audiophile gymnastics to me......within a typical triangle (like the one used for decades in mastering studios around the universe!) i’d expect more like 1-3db variations in this range.....or in other words, not something your hearing can perceive in a closed space at 88db or more with a typical noise floor.
Since you have the drivers already, I’d start off with building the ideal box for bass response using Qts and Vas as your parameters. Get those boxes built and placed in your space with the drive units on your listening vertical axis and start listening and measuring. Is the bass adequate?....resonant?...peaks or bulls within your listening position?.......or are we talking about smooth bass throughout the entire room because? Lol. Since the FP will be playing unfiltered, what does the most critical telephone bandwidth sound like?......you’ve physically removed all other frequency influence st this point so everything is revealed with a driver like this playing to 3khz and beyond. It’s at this point you can begin to identify offensive behaviors from the native system (woofer/box/room) and start to address those behaviors........floor bounce, cabinet resonance, room reflections, bass peaks and nulls....ALL exposed in their glory. You can start here with adjusting port length, enclosure stuffing, early room reflections, etc. Working from the bottom up, once optimized now is the time to add some low pass filtering to determine use how high up you can I use the driver where it’s pleasurable with no offensive response anomoly to volume.....but remember....listening fatigue is REAL.....limit your exposure to below the threshold while evaluating
These things matter TREMENDOUSLY when considering a system, particularly when horns/waveguides are employed.....the use and purpose has been bastardized to fit goals than can often be overcome in other ways that make far more sense in a home environment
One only need examine mix and mastering studio photos to see what and how you’re favorite recordings are generated.....have you found mostly pix of horn loaded two way systems used in these environments?.....or do you see more traditional two and three ways in well treated spaces?
This all being said and considered, there’s a LOT of unverified acoustic theory thrown around these days as principle to prescribe to........most of it nonsense once you start playing complex musical material beyond test tones and sweeps....measurements become useless as the iterations become exponential quickly introducing more and more variables. What DOES NOT change is the room or environment and THIS is what matters most.
So considering your FP woofers.......these are intended as midbass drivers for high power handling, projecting systems ideally, BUT because they have some favorable uncharacteristic behaviors it’s use can be adapted to work favorably beyond that design parameters if you reconsider the room and use. It’s clear by the verified measures of this driver is that it is EXTREMELEY smooth in the 1-3khz range and only down 5db off axis......at at a relatively wide 45 degrees off axis.......not sure who listens within a stereo triangle at 45 degrees from each LP......sounds like some nonsensical audiophile gymnastics to me......within a typical triangle (like the one used for decades in mastering studios around the universe!) i’d expect more like 1-3db variations in this range.....or in other words, not something your hearing can perceive in a closed space at 88db or more with a typical noise floor.
Since you have the drivers already, I’d start off with building the ideal box for bass response using Qts and Vas as your parameters. Get those boxes built and placed in your space with the drive units on your listening vertical axis and start listening and measuring. Is the bass adequate?....resonant?...peaks or bulls within your listening position?.......or are we talking about smooth bass throughout the entire room because? Lol. Since the FP will be playing unfiltered, what does the most critical telephone bandwidth sound like?......you’ve physically removed all other frequency influence st this point so everything is revealed with a driver like this playing to 3khz and beyond. It’s at this point you can begin to identify offensive behaviors from the native system (woofer/box/room) and start to address those behaviors........floor bounce, cabinet resonance, room reflections, bass peaks and nulls....ALL exposed in their glory. You can start here with adjusting port length, enclosure stuffing, early room reflections, etc. Working from the bottom up, once optimized now is the time to add some low pass filtering to determine use how high up you can I use the driver where it’s pleasurable with no offensive response anomoly to volume.....but remember....listening fatigue is REAL.....limit your exposure to below the threshold while evaluating
Many thanks. That a refreshing post that put on the table some essential things I haven't wondered.
Yes hifi in a living room...no room to say to mode it. But it hasnot too bad behavior and if not treated for bass, it is however not resonant in the mid treble...oak parquet on sand, etc.
Coming from a classic hifi tower with a 5 + 1 for the mid treble, I can say indeed I am a little impressed by the 12" .
The loudspeakers are 2 meters apart...and halas my listening position is too much far at 3 meters. They breath though as they are beyond the meter from the front wall and 1.2 m from a side wall and 1.5 m from the other side wall. Length of the room is circa 11 meters with a 2.7 m ceilling...
The bass cabinet should not be a problem as some designs are made already between 77L to 112L. Qts is a little mystery as very near from the theorical 0.39 Qts to tune below or higher the Fb. But I am confifent as Mbrennwa member here tuned it at the end by ears for the port length with good result for his living room at 77 liters and Fb 45 hz IIRC.
A little bigger circa 90 to 100 L netto is appealing to winn a little low end and plans had been shared too here. But yes, the room modes, etc... something to do certainly with REW to try to measure my room modes. Never did that !
I have to put the hand into active amp and dsp diy. Big home-works to learn and do on this side of the project. I have to finish the tunning of the filter of a little Harbeth 3 ways passive that is my first diy,made for a sleeping room. But I have more the head in that project and a tubed I/V stage almost finished.
Thanks fellow members for your nice reassurance...
Yes hifi in a living room...no room to say to mode it. But it hasnot too bad behavior and if not treated for bass, it is however not resonant in the mid treble...oak parquet on sand, etc.
Coming from a classic hifi tower with a 5 + 1 for the mid treble, I can say indeed I am a little impressed by the 12" .
The loudspeakers are 2 meters apart...and halas my listening position is too much far at 3 meters. They breath though as they are beyond the meter from the front wall and 1.2 m from a side wall and 1.5 m from the other side wall. Length of the room is circa 11 meters with a 2.7 m ceilling...
The bass cabinet should not be a problem as some designs are made already between 77L to 112L. Qts is a little mystery as very near from the theorical 0.39 Qts to tune below or higher the Fb. But I am confifent as Mbrennwa member here tuned it at the end by ears for the port length with good result for his living room at 77 liters and Fb 45 hz IIRC.
A little bigger circa 90 to 100 L netto is appealing to winn a little low end and plans had been shared too here. But yes, the room modes, etc... something to do certainly with REW to try to measure my room modes. Never did that !
I have to put the hand into active amp and dsp diy. Big home-works to learn and do on this side of the project. I have to finish the tunning of the filter of a little Harbeth 3 ways passive that is my first diy,made for a sleeping room. But I have more the head in that project and a tubed I/V stage almost finished.
Thanks fellow members for your nice reassurance...
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Actually - many bigger palces have horn loaded main speakers in the front wall (fig. 4 of the link). Only when distances get smaller (the other pictures) you get something like a big PMC (3" mid dome speakers).
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/sos-guide-control-room-design
https://www.westlakestudios.com/studio-e-control-room-1/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/studio-five--362821313712663314/
A living room is a very reverbant room compared to these rooms and most of the time we sit far from the speakers.
(Reverberation radius in living rooms is often less then a meter. And reflectins are very early and dense. So you hear the soundfield of the room, not the direct speaker.)
They are very efficient. With the PHL 3411 that I had downsized to from the Faital, I do not hear no hiss from the Hypex Plateamps anymore. The hiss was not so much transmited by the compression driver, but by the 12PR320!
If you have no concerns building big speakers, stick to the two-way and make your life a bit easier. They can sound fantastic. Mine are crossed at 1.25 kHz, and I do not know if you really need to cross as low as you think you do. If you get yourself able compression drivers, you can try it both ways.
The only concern with this topology for me is still pattern width: I experience the sweetspot to be a bit narrow with my JBL-clone Dayton 90x40 waveguides.
My room is reflective and I cannot insert acoustic treatment, so I will avoid a very wide pattern. However, in the schematic triangle that Earl Geddes posited, where imaging is improved by reduced early reflections (for the ms threshold, you would need to check his writings), but spaciousness to the same degree, and spaciousness is improved by (lateral) early reflections, but imaging diminished, I am still inclined to accept a lesser imaging and get a moderately wider waveguide for my speakers.