Hi Dean,
We're doing well thanks. I have blood tests every 6 months and a scan every year and everything is still clear. How are you ?
My eldest daughter & her family should be back in the UK from Okinawa in April 22, so that will be 2 years since we last saw them. 😀
One of my friends lent me a Rotel power amp to try instead of one of Nobsound amps - it works really well, so I managed to find one on Ebay, just waiting for it to arrive.
Here is latest set up, I'll take some photos at the weekend in the light.
What progress have you made in restoring Wharfdales / selling equipment, etc?
Kind Regards, Barry
We're doing well thanks. I have blood tests every 6 months and a scan every year and everything is still clear. How are you ?
My eldest daughter & her family should be back in the UK from Okinawa in April 22, so that will be 2 years since we last saw them. 😀
One of my friends lent me a Rotel power amp to try instead of one of Nobsound amps - it works really well, so I managed to find one on Ebay, just waiting for it to arrive.
Here is latest set up, I'll take some photos at the weekend in the light.
What progress have you made in restoring Wharfdales / selling equipment, etc?
Kind Regards, Barry
Attachments
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Technically it's a 3 way horn speaker plus sub-bass of another principle, right? I would be very interesteed of the comprimise implied by having the midbass horn downfiring, maybe it's not such a big one, but who knows until a proper audition. Thank you for these pics, very inspiring to experiment.
Compromise ?
Ideally the midbass would be horizontal, but I don't have the space in my room for this.
With it vertical it is also useful to fasten the other horns to.
I targeted 50 Hz, but knew corner loading would help and there was always the possibility of adding a subwoofer or two.
I'm happy with the sound, I sit ~ 6m away so the drivers have distance to integrate.
I started with Snell Type K and Audio Innovation series 300 (10W class A) and have nearly always had valves, so I tend not to have chest thumping bass.
I keep looking at K402 horn and at some stage I may make something to replace the white paper horn & black horn.
Ideally the midbass would be horizontal, but I don't have the space in my room for this.
With it vertical it is also useful to fasten the other horns to.
I targeted 50 Hz, but knew corner loading would help and there was always the possibility of adding a subwoofer or two.
I'm happy with the sound, I sit ~ 6m away so the drivers have distance to integrate.
I started with Snell Type K and Audio Innovation series 300 (10W class A) and have nearly always had valves, so I tend not to have chest thumping bass.
I keep looking at K402 horn and at some stage I may make something to replace the white paper horn & black horn.
You could try running the DSP with different power supplies.
It takes 5-24V, so there are plenty of options.
In my experience:
- plugged into a PC, it is noisy
- plugged into any independent supply (e.g. a leftover from a dead laptop), it is just fine
- plugged into a battery, it is also fine
I've used a mini DSP on a battery powered horn rig outdoors, with 12V (car) and 18v (power tool) batteries, and it worked well.
For people worried about resolution, but wanting to stick to a budget, you can could use the mini DSP in a hybrid form.
e.g. use the DSP for crossover, eq and delay for the LF drivers, and analogue for everything else.
In the voice range where your hearing is most sensitive, you can maybe pick the difference between DSP and analogue filters, if your system, recordings, ears and attention levels are all on point.
...but I doubt anyone would be able to pick the difference at 40Hz.
For what it is worth, I think that you made the right call.
a) There are a lot of ways it can go badly, particularly if you have multiple health issues yourself. Rolling the dice on another human's life is a big deal.
b) If all goes well, you can change your mind later. Adoption exists and (anecdotally) seems to work well. I know several people who were adopted, and they are just as loving + bonded to their families as "natural" children are.
Hi DorinD, Are you familiar with Tune Audio Horn speakers? One of their models the Anima, uses a down firing woofer and has been reviewed Very favorably by many Online reviewers, and Print Magazine reviewers. Also several diy audio people have had favorable things to say about it too. Have you or any of your audio buddies had a chance to here it at any Audio shows?
- Here are just a few comments - -- ( I'm not saying that the Audio Press is always to be believed about everything but I haven't seen very many negative impressions - at least that I can remember. And Lots of Positive ones) .
-- Jonathan Valin, of The Absolute Sound wrote “the system sounded fantastic on concert grand – very natural with superb timbre and scale. It was also sensational on trumpet, choir, and organ … indeed, these may be the best horn speaker I’ve ever heard!” while James Palmer from HiFi Wigwam simply wrote on his show blog “Seriously amazing speakers”. The Hifi Pig review site commented: “The Tune loudspeakers are a 3 way horn design distributed by Jack at BD Audio in the UK with whom we had a good chat in the beer garden…in the rain. The sound in the room was very impressive indeed being deep, controlled and insightful and “sweet” with solo instruments – my notes say beautiful!”, and 6moons stated “Tune Audio’s Anima would be on the top of my list of horn speakers to review. I still remember them that fondly from the 2011 show. The fact that their design remains unaltered suggests that on that count nothing has changed”.
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Hi hollowboy -- yes, I Agree adoption is a good option but I just turned 61 -- ( I can't believe it sometimes ) ....
- and have 4 major medical conditions , as well as cancer now too - so not much chance of doing any adoptions.... LOL, LOL
- Here are just a few comments - -- ( I'm not saying that the Audio Press is always to be believed about everything but I haven't seen very many negative impressions - at least that I can remember. And Lots of Positive ones) .
-- Jonathan Valin, of The Absolute Sound wrote “the system sounded fantastic on concert grand – very natural with superb timbre and scale. It was also sensational on trumpet, choir, and organ … indeed, these may be the best horn speaker I’ve ever heard!” while James Palmer from HiFi Wigwam simply wrote on his show blog “Seriously amazing speakers”. The Hifi Pig review site commented: “The Tune loudspeakers are a 3 way horn design distributed by Jack at BD Audio in the UK with whom we had a good chat in the beer garden…in the rain. The sound in the room was very impressive indeed being deep, controlled and insightful and “sweet” with solo instruments – my notes say beautiful!”, and 6moons stated “Tune Audio’s Anima would be on the top of my list of horn speakers to review. I still remember them that fondly from the 2011 show. The fact that their design remains unaltered suggests that on that count nothing has changed”.
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Hi hollowboy -- yes, I Agree adoption is a good option but I just turned 61 -- ( I can't believe it sometimes ) ....
- and have 4 major medical conditions , as well as cancer now too - so not much chance of doing any adoptions.... LOL, LOL
-- Hi Barry your Horns are looking very NICE!!
- Do you plan on doing anything more to them or are you just kiken back enjoying the tunes now?
- I haven't finished the Wharfedale W70 Restoration and Mods quite yet , so what's the hold up.....
--- the first thing that slowed me down was that after we let some of our best friends know about my cancer two couples that we hadn't seen in many years decided to come spend a couple weeks visiting us. One couple that came down that we knew from our days in California now is living in Washington State stayed for about 10 days - we hadn't seen them in 10 or 15 years. And the other couple came later to visit us from Chicago - we hadn't seen them in over 20 years, but it was so great , with both couples it was like no time had passed - we had a Really Great time!! -- But Unfortunately my wife wanted a major over hall of the house , and some serious top to bottom cleaning - LOL ... LOL - so that took a while!!!!
Back to the Wharfedale W70's - I have most of what I need to do it , I just need a couple more caps and the game will be A-foot , I plan on trying a good Dayton audio Polypropylene Cap which I have already purchase... and then trying a Russian POI Capacitor too, if one sounds much better then the other then that's the one I'll use. But if both sound good , I am going to figure out a way to toggle between them or maybe - build the crossover board on the back so you can just exchange the caps like the - " Leonidas " Crossover Boards that they developed over at Pure Audio Project - here are a couple of pictures of the way they built them below. The main idea is that each element can easily be changed out in the crossover to dial in the exact voicing that you want, granted this is much easier if you are using a relatively simple crossover like they were - but the crossover in the w70 is simple too so it will work out well if I go that route.
- I could buy better caps but this is mostly a experiment for me to see how much I can improve the sound of a Vintage Wharfedale Speaker , if it goes well with the W70's - then I may move on to Replicating their top of their line the SFB3 Open Baffle Speaker...... but unless I find a very well informed buyer most will not want to pay much over the price of other w70s that may be out there - (even with my fancy sales pitch) - so I can't go too crazy on big buck capacitors - LOL
-- here are a couple of pictures of different Leonidas crossovers
This last example below is a major upgrade to the parts in the original crossover - LOL ...... there are $2,400.00 worth of High End Parts on this board, Stacked Copper and Wax Capacitors........ etc. - The cool thing is that since the guy already had dialed in the original Xover - with this design he could make the Speaker even more transparent by just physically attaching the leads from each of the parts to each other , no extra wires and no solder - He said it made a significant upgrade to the overall transparency of the speaker by doing away with the solder joints.
-----------------
-- There is a buzz out there about some of the new speaker terminals available now and how much of a difference they can make , but of coarse they are BIG Bucks - the best ones are around $595.00 , Ouch.... but.......... That gave me a New idea for my Speaker wires and Terminals - I'm going to do something similar to the idea on the crossover above, hopefully it will make a decent improvement to the sound of this speaker and the other ones I am planning on building after it too. I'll have to draw you a picture of what I have in mind I'm not sure I can describe it well enough...
-- I also have my Zenith Open baffle Speakers to build, and my new Purifi Audio ptt6.5w04-01a Woofers to use in a pair of Speakers -- and of coarse Horn speakers, originally I was thinking maybe going with the Anima or Volti Vittora style Horns , but lately I'm thinking of maybe trying my hand at a MEH Horn! ( Information to follow) --- so much to do so little time - 🙂
- Do you plan on doing anything more to them or are you just kiken back enjoying the tunes now?
- I haven't finished the Wharfedale W70 Restoration and Mods quite yet , so what's the hold up.....
--- the first thing that slowed me down was that after we let some of our best friends know about my cancer two couples that we hadn't seen in many years decided to come spend a couple weeks visiting us. One couple that came down that we knew from our days in California now is living in Washington State stayed for about 10 days - we hadn't seen them in 10 or 15 years. And the other couple came later to visit us from Chicago - we hadn't seen them in over 20 years, but it was so great , with both couples it was like no time had passed - we had a Really Great time!! -- But Unfortunately my wife wanted a major over hall of the house , and some serious top to bottom cleaning - LOL ... LOL - so that took a while!!!!
- Then with covid and all the crazy stuff that's going on in the US...... we have gotten very concerned. Some folks seem hell bent on doing what they can to send us back to the dark ages.... So I have decided to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. So I've had spend a lot of time learning what I can in case we have to go into "Survival Mode" - the supply chain in the US. is severely damaged , and it looks like the store shelves are going to be pretty bare very soon,.
- They have also said to prepare for the worst winter that most of us have ever seen in our lifetimes , which means freezing temps and major power outages here in Texas again, only most likely worse than last time. Because the new administration hasn't put their new "green energy" plans in place before shutting down much of the coal and natural gas production, not only is it going to have a major impact on prices - ( Gas prices have double already in many places, And our electricity rates are Way up too!) - - - - if they are right about the coming winter many folks may freeze to death too. Soooo - we have stocked up on food , water , and multitude of other things, and I've had to find new ways to cook if the grid goes down , and we are making plans to figure out how to not freeze to death when the gas and electricity stop, but since we are both on disability- my wife has MS, ( and I have a number of issues ) -- we don't have much money to buy lot of stuff so I'm trying to do this all on a very small budget...
- Crime is skyrocketing too all across our country, there have been videos of Police officers saying that they aren't going to be able to protect us.... that's scary ..... And it will only get much worse if the food runs out - which is a real possibility too. I am thinking of selling my AR15 Target rifle to get something lighter and more tactical. ................ So much craziness happening here and other places too , people don't realize what's going on but the stock market is going to crash big time.... and the real scary thing is that the administration is talking about needing to know how we spend every dollar , so they want access to all of our bank accounts...... and that can't end well. -- With the amount of money they have dumped into the economy the dollar is crashing too, (they have dumped 30 to 40 trillion dollars into the economy this last year alone) - anyway enough of that stuff ------ that's all just to say I have had a lot of other stuff on my mind besides just audio - LOL -
Back to the Wharfedale W70's - I have most of what I need to do it , I just need a couple more caps and the game will be A-foot , I plan on trying a good Dayton audio Polypropylene Cap which I have already purchase... and then trying a Russian POI Capacitor too, if one sounds much better then the other then that's the one I'll use. But if both sound good , I am going to figure out a way to toggle between them or maybe - build the crossover board on the back so you can just exchange the caps like the - " Leonidas " Crossover Boards that they developed over at Pure Audio Project - here are a couple of pictures of the way they built them below. The main idea is that each element can easily be changed out in the crossover to dial in the exact voicing that you want, granted this is much easier if you are using a relatively simple crossover like they were - but the crossover in the w70 is simple too so it will work out well if I go that route.
- I could buy better caps but this is mostly a experiment for me to see how much I can improve the sound of a Vintage Wharfedale Speaker , if it goes well with the W70's - then I may move on to Replicating their top of their line the SFB3 Open Baffle Speaker...... but unless I find a very well informed buyer most will not want to pay much over the price of other w70s that may be out there - (even with my fancy sales pitch) - so I can't go too crazy on big buck capacitors - LOL
-- here are a couple of pictures of different Leonidas crossovers
This last example below is a major upgrade to the parts in the original crossover - LOL ...... there are $2,400.00 worth of High End Parts on this board, Stacked Copper and Wax Capacitors........ etc. - The cool thing is that since the guy already had dialed in the original Xover - with this design he could make the Speaker even more transparent by just physically attaching the leads from each of the parts to each other , no extra wires and no solder - He said it made a significant upgrade to the overall transparency of the speaker by doing away with the solder joints.
-----------------
-- There is a buzz out there about some of the new speaker terminals available now and how much of a difference they can make , but of coarse they are BIG Bucks - the best ones are around $595.00 , Ouch.... but.......... That gave me a New idea for my Speaker wires and Terminals - I'm going to do something similar to the idea on the crossover above, hopefully it will make a decent improvement to the sound of this speaker and the other ones I am planning on building after it too. I'll have to draw you a picture of what I have in mind I'm not sure I can describe it well enough...
-- I also have my Zenith Open baffle Speakers to build, and my new Purifi Audio ptt6.5w04-01a Woofers to use in a pair of Speakers -- and of coarse Horn speakers, originally I was thinking maybe going with the Anima or Volti Vittora style Horns , but lately I'm thinking of maybe trying my hand at a MEH Horn! ( Information to follow) --- so much to do so little time - 🙂
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Fascinating thread, just wanted to say…
I’ve been skulking around for awhile thinking about cloning the Anima, maybe next year.
I’ve been skulking around for awhile thinking about cloning the Anima, maybe next year.
I've thought about it too. DIYers might consider a corner horn. In comparison this one is more versatile on placement being upright like a conventional speaker.. but it can also be tuned not being restricted to the corners or a wall.
After reading the first page I was thinking about corner horns but came here to post my comment on AllenB's post below. Serendipity.
Olson Corner Horn
Was just looking at the above blue-linked page and wondering if they are quaint old antiques or actually competitive with more modern designs.
In a room with hard walls where space is at a premium would they be worth considering for use from say something like 600-700Hz down with a suitable horn on top for everything higher? (With a different woofer)
Limited experience with back loaded horns makes me think the LF would sound sluggish or transient soft/indistinct at lower frequencies and perhaps hard to integrate with the HF system. But then again Olson knew what he was doing. So, great for the time but now dated ? . . .or still viable? Anybody know anything about them?
Thanks
(Originally posted this question here )
Olson Corner Horn
Was just looking at the above blue-linked page and wondering if they are quaint old antiques or actually competitive with more modern designs.
In a room with hard walls where space is at a premium would they be worth considering for use from say something like 600-700Hz down with a suitable horn on top for everything higher? (With a different woofer)
Limited experience with back loaded horns makes me think the LF would sound sluggish or transient soft/indistinct at lower frequencies and perhaps hard to integrate with the HF system. But then again Olson knew what he was doing. So, great for the time but now dated ? . . .or still viable? Anybody know anything about them?
Thanks
(Originally posted this question here )
That's the easiest to visualize explanation I've ever seen. Clear as a bell ! Thanks
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Personally I like corner horns for a number of reasons.. but in saying that I'm not saying that you can't make a good speaker either way. They will be quite different when you do. Their environment presents the needs and limitations that will drive the design.
I should have said corner waveguides, but you can transition to a horn like this below some frequency. It isn't perfect but at these frequencies you have some allowable leeway. You will want multiple subs for dealing with modes due to the corner placement.
Working into the corner is a difficult environment to design for.. however the 600Hz region you mention is one that is often not experienced at its best due to the challenges of the common baffle step.
I should have said corner waveguides, but you can transition to a horn like this below some frequency. It isn't perfect but at these frequencies you have some allowable leeway. You will want multiple subs for dealing with modes due to the corner placement.
Working into the corner is a difficult environment to design for.. however the 600Hz region you mention is one that is often not experienced at its best due to the challenges of the common baffle step.
The DI shifts considerably and there are many modes with various effects. There is much tactile information in this region which is often reproduced less realistically than it should be.
There is more detailed information behind this statement than is as appreciable to this reader as he'd like it to be.
Where does a body find writing on this specific topic? Have you posted on this elsewhere? I find your way of putting things as images, like the horn mode description I referred to above, easy to understand.
Thinking a little more, maybe a better way to ask the question is :
If "often reproduced less realistically than it should be", what/where are the most common mistakes or oversights that lead to this fault?
If "often reproduced less realistically than it should be", what/where are the most common mistakes or oversights that lead to this fault?
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Well, they give things/ further questions to think about.
The first describes the results (phase / interference) which I get as a basic concept, and the primary source (baffle) the nature of which I need to understand more than basically.
The second makes clear what you meant by tactile.
The third expands on the tactile thing while helping me relate to what you're listening for by the car door example. Also gets me to visualize the sound radiating out from the corners. A bit weird as I've seen countless illustrations that never seemed to sink in. Your straightforward (maybe call it tactile) wording makes it easy to see it clearly in mind.
The finishing question I would answer as yes but hybrid, at the throat of a sort of giant radial horn with conical expansion on the sides . It could sound very generally ok, but not great .
That should tell you how little I know about nomenclature and theory. Yet I hope to learn enough here to avoid the common insufficiency you're talking about.
The first describes the results (phase / interference) which I get as a basic concept, and the primary source (baffle) the nature of which I need to understand more than basically.
The second makes clear what you meant by tactile.
The third expands on the tactile thing while helping me relate to what you're listening for by the car door example. Also gets me to visualize the sound radiating out from the corners. A bit weird as I've seen countless illustrations that never seemed to sink in. Your straightforward (maybe call it tactile) wording makes it easy to see it clearly in mind.
The finishing question I would answer as yes but hybrid, at the throat of a sort of giant radial horn with conical expansion on the sides . It could sound very generally ok, but not great .
That should tell you how little I know about nomenclature and theory. Yet I hope to learn enough here to avoid the common insufficiency you're talking about.
If you want to pop over to Norfolk, just drop me a line & we'll arrange a convenient time for you to listen to these
Worth noting that before DSP time delay, only 'full-range' (co/tri-ax), (sub) woofer apps were suited for BLH loading.
Also, for the times, Olson's was SOTA and it still would be if accurately replicated today, but in general we have a much different signal chain, which requires a significantly different driver design. If wanting to use his basic design, then do a T/S designed one using this driver as the closest I'm aware of the LC-1A and adjust its internal dims, if any.
Re corner horn baffle step, note in this interactive chart what all can ruin a speaker's performance in the critical ~250 - 1 kHz BW.
Also, for the times, Olson's was SOTA and it still would be if accurately replicated today, but in general we have a much different signal chain, which requires a significantly different driver design. If wanting to use his basic design, then do a T/S designed one using this driver as the closest I'm aware of the LC-1A and adjust its internal dims, if any.
Re corner horn baffle step, note in this interactive chart what all can ruin a speaker's performance in the critical ~250 - 1 kHz BW.
With the mid bass design as I have it, I was advised in the early days to limit the vertical horn to a max of 250 Hz,. In particular, I was warned about male vocals not coming from the vertical horn. By using a corner horn, such as the Olson one, there is not this limitation and there are more drivers available to work from 600 / 700 upwards and the horn is smaller. Attached image was an idea to reduce the overall footprint, but I decided the woodwork was too complicated 🙂
