For me, the core is an inexpensive all-singing all-dancing Behringer DCX2496 DSP and using a crossover like 100 Hz, 24dB/8ave.
Given you are musician and singer in a modest sized space, (my starting point in the requirements spec), I'd buy two small speakers of the highest quality (single or two-way) and mount on mic stands*. Something little like the old BBC LS3/5a. No need for super treble or much bass. Can be small box but will play in its band big but clean because you are not stressing it and because the manufacturer spent a lot of time sorting out their speakers.
Almost any old self-powered sub box at the Salvation Army will enhance the bass about right. Put it anywhere in the room that sounds good and looks OK. Ditto to buy old amps.
B.
* the DIY equivalent would be a single full-range driver of the highest quality in a small box or open baffle (if you have the space and aesthetics) - no tuning or bracing or any fuss needed since you are wisely not playing it across its resonance or box tuning frequencies and not intending to make it handle bass
Given you are musician and singer in a modest sized space, (my starting point in the requirements spec), I'd buy two small speakers of the highest quality (single or two-way) and mount on mic stands*. Something little like the old BBC LS3/5a. No need for super treble or much bass. Can be small box but will play in its band big but clean because you are not stressing it and because the manufacturer spent a lot of time sorting out their speakers.
Almost any old self-powered sub box at the Salvation Army will enhance the bass about right. Put it anywhere in the room that sounds good and looks OK. Ditto to buy old amps.
B.
* the DIY equivalent would be a single full-range driver of the highest quality in a small box or open baffle (if you have the space and aesthetics) - no tuning or bracing or any fuss needed since you are wisely not playing it across its resonance or box tuning frequencies and not intending to make it handle bass
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You should watch Steve Guttenberg's video on YouTube. Audiphile on 500 Bucks. He goes up from there. Has some good speaker recommendations in the lower ranges. Also check out the Encore XL's on web. Flatpack enclosure can be purchased for 175 shipped.
Just don’t use any of the analog bits, they are not good. I had all the transformers to fix mine, but the box dissappeared while i was in hospital. No loss.
dave
Thanks for the tip re: Steve Gutternberg's "$500 or a lot less complete budget audio systems" YouTube
I've watched quite a few of his videos. I like his personality and his reviews, though it's weird. He essentially just stands there and talks. He doesn't really sit with the equipment and review features, do any measurements etc.
I am going to look into some of his recommendations on amplifiers. I am now all over the damned map on this! From a < $100 mini class A/B amp to an $800 network Yamaha receiver and everything in between. I was previously leaning towards something used/older and slightly more high end, barebones 2 channel with great specs and just updating it by adding a decent DAC. But now i'm seeing some pretty nice mainstream integrated amps out there with good specs that are new.
RE: Encore X-LS - Beautiful looking speaker. Probably a little small for my needs. I'm likely going for something slightly bigger as I want better low bass extension. I don't plan on adding a sub anytime soon, and because of the broad range of music in this household, I need the speakers to be versatile, accurate and handle a variety of formats (streaming, hd lossless audio, movies mainly).
That's normal behaviour for an audiophile guru. They often just reel off phrases from the special dictionary they all own 😉
With DSP, if your satellites are two-way, look for a 4-channel A/V amp at the Salvation Army store. With a separately powered sub or subs, you won't need much power, maybe 40 watts a channel at the most. Anything made since 1980* will be sonically indistinguishable from today's boutique amps on conventional drivers.
B.
* I'd say 1970 but that might be contentious.
B.
* I'd say 1970 but that might be contentious.
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Have you checked the Iotavx? I think mr Gutenberg amongst many others speaks fondly of it.Or build a chip amp, like the Neurochrome Modulus 86 or the The Folsom 7293. Soldering is fun! 🙂
If you want bigger badder bass in your budget range buying used and recapping the crossovers, maybe completely rebuild them if you could get a good deal on a nice pair of speakers, is a good way to go. If clean and fast deep bass without subs is important: Be prepared to pay! 😛
If you want bigger badder bass in your budget range buying used and recapping the crossovers, maybe completely rebuild them if you could get a good deal on a nice pair of speakers, is a good way to go. If clean and fast deep bass without subs is important: Be prepared to pay! 😛
I'm focusing on a good quality 2 channel system (and no sub) instead of multi-channel & surround. The mutli-channel route is too complicated for the small space I listen in at the moment. I did have a surround setup in the late 90s but sold it decades ago.
I have considered vintage late 70s/early 80s amps/receivers. They are all very pretty and nostalgic. One problem is most of those units would need refurbishing by now as their capacitors would have gone bad with age. I have seen some nicely refurbished models, but for the price they are asking, I can just buy something current. The nice thing is i've been there and done that as far as owning vintage equipment. But it was actually current tech when I owned it (Now I feel old). Aside from some nice aesthetics, there is not much value in investing in that stuff any longer. With sound quality, the high end equipment of yester-year aligns pretty much with mainstream stuff these days as technology and manufacturing processes have improved to the point where you can buy an integrated amp from Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, NAD etc in the $300 - $500 range that will easily equal or outperform many of the highest end stuff from the 70s and 80s. There's even a trend now where many of these manufacturers are offering models with that vintage silver metallic aesthetic.
So yeah i'm probably no closer to a decision in choosing the amplifier part, but I now have at least updated myself on the state of the current ecosystem.
I did see 1 review on one of the IOTAVX amps. Very nice. Certainly a consideration.
I was also considering the DIY route like the two you mention. I haven't researched those yet, but will do this weekend.
Haha I actually have a half-completed audiosector kit that I never completed. It's fully stuffed with components, I just never put it in an enclosure
So looking at the Encore XL's they also make a larger version in a tower config that extends the bass another 10HZ. Also If buying an amp I purchased a Yamaha integrated for about 300 2 years ago definitely a nice sounding amp. If DIY one of the best sounding of all the amps I have is still my Pass A40. Just beautiful sounding.
No one is recommending you go for surround sound. Just that if you have multichannel DSP available to you then using a multichannel amplifier, two channels for the mains, then two for the subs, using the DSP to integrate them, makes a lot of sense.
Means you can buy a small pair of mains and be far less concerned with their bass extension. Choosing them specifically for their ability to give you what you want in the midrange and above. Then use a sub to give you the bass you want. This could be something as simple as a small sub from eBay. You'll probably be able to find a bunch of 10" subs sold as spares/repairs because of a broken internal amplifier. Just open them up and wire the internal sub directly to your multichannel amplifier. Then DSP them to get the bass you want.
You say you liked those old KEF Uni-Q speakers but KEF haven't stood still when it comes to their Uni-Q driver. They've made tremendous progress in this department over the years and the current generation is leaps and bounds above what they were doing in the 80/90s. Other driver tech has also improved but new drivers or not, you cannot replace what a good coaxial can do regardless of how good a new driver might be.
Just looking at this from a pragmatic point of view Q150, plus random subs, plus multichannel amp, plus DSP to integrate everything and give you a tonal balance you want. Second hand stuff...you will not get better value for money. Plus you get to DIY by opening up broken subs and designing DSP crossovers.
By the way there are several DIY guys who've actually bought KEF speakers just to get the Uni-Q drivers for their own designs.
Means you can buy a small pair of mains and be far less concerned with their bass extension. Choosing them specifically for their ability to give you what you want in the midrange and above. Then use a sub to give you the bass you want. This could be something as simple as a small sub from eBay. You'll probably be able to find a bunch of 10" subs sold as spares/repairs because of a broken internal amplifier. Just open them up and wire the internal sub directly to your multichannel amplifier. Then DSP them to get the bass you want.
You say you liked those old KEF Uni-Q speakers but KEF haven't stood still when it comes to their Uni-Q driver. They've made tremendous progress in this department over the years and the current generation is leaps and bounds above what they were doing in the 80/90s. Other driver tech has also improved but new drivers or not, you cannot replace what a good coaxial can do regardless of how good a new driver might be.
Just looking at this from a pragmatic point of view Q150, plus random subs, plus multichannel amp, plus DSP to integrate everything and give you a tonal balance you want. Second hand stuff...you will not get better value for money. Plus you get to DIY by opening up broken subs and designing DSP crossovers.
By the way there are several DIY guys who've actually bought KEF speakers just to get the Uni-Q drivers for their own designs.
Ah ok, I get you now. That would be a good option if I were adding a sub, but i'm not. I really just want a high quality 2 speaker system.
All excellent points. If I consider retail (non DIY kits), that is a good suggestion. The Klipsch R-51M and sub combo that Steve Guttenberg recommends seems like a very nice setup. I keep running into these as well as the ELAC b6.2's during my research. I still find the DIY route more compelling though.
Those KEF 103/4s were sweet. I have not heard the modern models yet, but another KEF model that keeps popping up in my research is the KEF LS50. I'll probably go out and hear these once this 'shelter in place' thing is over.
"you cannot replace what a good coaxial can do regardless of how good a new driver might be"
Well, that depends on where in frequency you like your crossover point. Some swear by Xover at 3, 5 or 800 Hz and any KEF coax likely isnt going to cross that low. That said, I've owned a few KEFs over the years and do generally like them. I like my "WAW" OB, crossed at ~100Hz, better.
You can get some nice bargains at thrift stores, yard sales - but just not immediately - such finds come to you on their own terms. Someone here in another thread suggested the Sony SS-CS5 speakers, which is an immediately purchasable, inexpensive and apparently highly regarded $150 speaker. As has been said, maybe coupled with an equally inexpensive sub...
I'd buy a set just to hear it, but am afraid of starting up a closet speaker collection again. I'm down to owning just 3-4 pairs.
Well, that depends on where in frequency you like your crossover point. Some swear by Xover at 3, 5 or 800 Hz and any KEF coax likely isnt going to cross that low. That said, I've owned a few KEFs over the years and do generally like them. I like my "WAW" OB, crossed at ~100Hz, better.
You can get some nice bargains at thrift stores, yard sales - but just not immediately - such finds come to you on their own terms. Someone here in another thread suggested the Sony SS-CS5 speakers, which is an immediately purchasable, inexpensive and apparently highly regarded $150 speaker. As has been said, maybe coupled with an equally inexpensive sub...
I'd buy a set just to hear it, but am afraid of starting up a closet speaker collection again. I'm down to owning just 3-4 pairs.
I have pulled the trigger on a solution for the room. So I followed your advice there, thanks! Sunday I am going to treat the room with acoustic panels. Each panel is 12"x12" in packs of 6. I've ordered 36 of them (Amazon.com: BUBOS Decorative Acoustic Panels,NRC Sound Proof Padding Wall Panels,Acoustic tiles, Good for Soundproofing and Acoustic Treatment,Beveled Edge(12"x12"x0.4"),6 Pcs: Musical Instruments). I will create 6 groups of 6 (2wx3h). Four 2wX3h groups will be fixed to the back wall behind the sofa and 2 groups will be fixed on the right wall right beside where the right speaker will be. I also have 5 square acoustic foam panels that will be fixed to the wall behind the right speaker (left speaker has no wall behind it) in strategic positions (probably around the listening height). I think the combo of the acoustic panel groups on the walls and the acoustic foam behind the right speaker should improve the room to some degree.
I think someone mentioned it earlier, but an SBAcoustics based design will offee great value for the money. From what you've said, I'd look at SB17 variants on the woofer, and take your pick of any SB tweeter. $150 for a pair of woofers, $100 for tweeters, figure $150 for crossover components, and $200 - $300 for some custom cabinets that you could design, $50 in other misc costs. Puts you at $650 to $750 for a set that should rival commercial options costing over $3000. There's an excellent pair of Revel speakers that use (possibly modified) SB17NBAC woofers in that few thousand dollar range. Sound great, I've heard them. Also my favorite set I've built is a 2 way bookshelf using the SB15NAC woofer. Great drivers, great price.
If you don't want to spend that much, I'd look at peerless or dayton for drivers. Both are good budget options with good value at a lower price point (usually) than SBAcoustics. I recently built a bookshelf using $20 peerless woofers, $12 peerless tweeters that sound decent. After crossovers and cabs that I built, total cost was around $150.
Guess what I'm trying to say is if you want to try your hand at it, there are lots of great options if you can find someone to build the cabinets for you, whether you design the full thing yourself or use someone else's design.
Also, my main amp is a NAD C372 that I picked up on eBay for $300. Great sound, tough to beat at that price, so I totally agree with those suggesting buying gently used second hand options there. In my opinion, buying audio electronics new is a waste of money - buy ysed and get a way better system for the price!
Nelson Pass's ACA is great too if you want to diy an amp, as others have said.
If you don't want to spend that much, I'd look at peerless or dayton for drivers. Both are good budget options with good value at a lower price point (usually) than SBAcoustics. I recently built a bookshelf using $20 peerless woofers, $12 peerless tweeters that sound decent. After crossovers and cabs that I built, total cost was around $150.
Guess what I'm trying to say is if you want to try your hand at it, there are lots of great options if you can find someone to build the cabinets for you, whether you design the full thing yourself or use someone else's design.
Also, my main amp is a NAD C372 that I picked up on eBay for $300. Great sound, tough to beat at that price, so I totally agree with those suggesting buying gently used second hand options there. In my opinion, buying audio electronics new is a waste of money - buy ysed and get a way better system for the price!
Nelson Pass's ACA is great too if you want to diy an amp, as others have said.
I'm actually flattered. Those look to be good panels and will probably work better than my old woollen blanket solution. If you haven't already read them there are several threads here on LEDE rooms. Live End Dead End
Wow, didn't realize there's an entire forum dedicated to that amp. Hmm a stereo version of that could be interesting. Initially I was thinking to just go for a used or new class A/B amp, but this 'PASS ACA' in a stereo configuration might be cool...
It works great! I use it as a portable amp too if I want to bring a set of speakers somewhere to demo them for someone. I pair it with a Schiit Magni 3 as a preamp, and whatever DAC I happen to feel like grabbing. It's only 6 watts, but I've never had an issue playing loud enough, even with relatively inefficient speakers.