The Situation
I am an ex-musician/ex-budget audiophile (see my intro). I live in a fairly small apartment (on a noisy street) with a pretty tight listening space in my living room area. It is split between a content creation/streaming/gaming studio and sofa/tv area. It has been many years (about 20) since i've had a proper HiFi setup. I moved around so much here in the States and abroad over the last couple of decades that it became practical to get rid of big heavy HiFi equipment in favor of smaller more practical stuff (headphones, small speakers etc).
Now i'm in a city that I will likely settle down for awhile and possibly buy property in the future. Since i'm currently working from home, i've started to reevaluate my HiFi situation, a 60" 4k tv, using built in speakers. That's pretty much it! Paltry, I know. This needs remedying...
My needs as an audiophile
I'm not the super esoteric type. I desire crystal clear, accurate, efficient, spacious sounding audio with a nice wide soundstage and good imaging. If I can achieve this in the small space I have, with a small to medium sized (bookshelf or free standing towers with a small footprint) setup, I would be totally happy. I have some light electronics engineering experience in my distant past, so the idea of DIY appeals to me.
Possible Solution(s)
I want to do one of two things:
Question to the community
I'd like to hear some opinions on the way forward here. I'm going to need the solution to work well at low, as well as normal volume listening with very low distortion. I have not given too much thought to amplification yet as I wanted to focus on the speakers first. Off the top of my head i'm thinking either a class A/B or D solid state amp in the $300 - $400 range.
Any ideas? 🙂
I am an ex-musician/ex-budget audiophile (see my intro). I live in a fairly small apartment (on a noisy street) with a pretty tight listening space in my living room area. It is split between a content creation/streaming/gaming studio and sofa/tv area. It has been many years (about 20) since i've had a proper HiFi setup. I moved around so much here in the States and abroad over the last couple of decades that it became practical to get rid of big heavy HiFi equipment in favor of smaller more practical stuff (headphones, small speakers etc).
Now i'm in a city that I will likely settle down for awhile and possibly buy property in the future. Since i'm currently working from home, i've started to reevaluate my HiFi situation, a 60" 4k tv, using built in speakers. That's pretty much it! Paltry, I know. This needs remedying...
My needs as an audiophile
I'm not the super esoteric type. I desire crystal clear, accurate, efficient, spacious sounding audio with a nice wide soundstage and good imaging. If I can achieve this in the small space I have, with a small to medium sized (bookshelf or free standing towers with a small footprint) setup, I would be totally happy. I have some light electronics engineering experience in my distant past, so the idea of DIY appeals to me.
Possible Solution(s)
I want to do one of two things:
- Build a DIY flat pack/break down speaker kit with possible mods to achieve my goals. I don't have the space or tools for woodworking, so pre-built cabinets are required. I am currently considering 3 kits:
A - The Swan/HiVi 3.1 with a modded crossover to tame the slightly bright nature of that AMT tweeter.B - TriTrix MTM Transmission Line Kit. These are much larger than the first option, but chances are I would have option 1 on stands anyhow. These may actually be too big for my space, but i'll be moving into a larger space sometime later this year or next, so the solution needs to be scalable to some degree...C - The Dinas - These are powered and seem like they would be a bit on the bright side, but an intriguing option. I'm not sure yet if I can buy the cabinets pre-built or flat pack. Have contacted the designer of these to find out... - Restore and/or rebuild some vintage speakers with updated crossovers and drivers. This appeals to me only because many of the great vintage models that existed when I was young. I had the experience of hearing many of these having worked in the HiFi retail industry in the late 1980's as a teenager.
Question to the community
I'd like to hear some opinions on the way forward here. I'm going to need the solution to work well at low, as well as normal volume listening with very low distortion. I have not given too much thought to amplification yet as I wanted to focus on the speakers first. Off the top of my head i'm thinking either a class A/B or D solid state amp in the $300 - $400 range.
Any ideas? 🙂
Last edited:
Except for rfficient, my goals as well. But given the examples you have shown, really efficient isn’t the goal.
I have not found any traditional multi-ways (at least at reasonable pricing) that do image/soundstage really well. As long as you don’t need to play all that loud, a good FR will fill your needs.
Bob Berner (in PA) is doing flat-paks and adding new designs to his potfolio all the time. And unlike the PE flat-pak, properly made with quality plywood (IMO MDF is a last choice for speaker enclosures)
Not many vintage speakers compete with the best of the modern stuff, and if you are considering swapping drivers, you are best to just start from scratch.
Learning how to EnABL the drivers enhacing the soundstage/imaging (sometimes dramatically).
As to amps, i am really partial to the Pass ACA, not a lot of power, but clips very gracefully so sounds more powerful than it is, and sounds really good. There are also some good chip amps, Tom’s Neurochrome is a stand out. And a growing number of Class D amplifiers. You can start wilh a board or buy a full kit.
What ar eyou currently using as the res of your kit?
dave
Really? I've heard some amazing multiway speakers that provide a great soundstage. Mind you my listening is around 30 years out of date, so I haven't got around to hearing allot of the modern stuff aside from The Orb Mod2's. I owned a pair of KEF 103/4's in the 90's that had great imaging/soundstage, but these were not classic multiway speakers. The reason I am drawn to that Swan/HiVi setup is that it employs a dome midrange. Those tend to really open up the soundstage depending on the design.
I assume by FR you mean full range. In kit form, most of the full range solutions i've seen have pretty small drivers. I haven't really seen anything larger than 5.25" unless i'm missing some?
Hmm, will check those out. Thanks for the tip.
Good point. Though principles have not changed, design and manufacturing processes have advanced quite a bit. The sound from a speaker system that cost over $1k each in 1988 can be had in a system nowadays for $500 it seems.
Not sure what you mean there...
Thanks, will check these out.
A samsung 60" 4k LED Tv. That's it. For music listening i'm using a pair of Bose NC700 headphones tethered to my iphone 11 pro max and some lossless music. So i'm wide open for a solution here 🙂
If I had to split a budget of around $800 between amp and speakers, I would spend $750 on the speakers and $50 on a good but used amp. Even then the amp could be overkill 😉
$50? Where? In a cursory glance at craigs list and ebay, decent used amps start at around $100. For example: This one, and this one. Thanks for the advice though.
If I stick with a 2 speaker setup, then it will likely be an amp like the examples above, or will check out some of planet10's suggestions above...
Something like this: HiFi Receiver YAMAHA RX-V480 & Radio Tuner, Power Amplifier RX-V 480 27108901183 | eBay
I'm not familiar with that particular model but you get the idea.
I have heard 100s of multiways going backbefore the KEF 103. Each time i heard a speaker thta imaged better my criteria as to what great imagingsoundstage changed. Even then the KEF 104 and KEF 105 did not image that well.
While there are 100s of designs, kits on the ground are not that common. One of the reasons i mentioned BOB as he has been addingg designs to his portoflios as peopel request them.
In my experience 4-5 1/4” is th esweet spot for FRs and it is really smile bringing to see people’s faces when they hear the bass that can come out of some of those 4 FRs. But for most the extra kick a 5 1/4” can provide are better suited to most people.
A lot of develoment has happened since your 103s, and standards have been raised.
check out the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3 or 10p in Pensil (i expect Frugel-Horn XL might have too big a foot-print.
Larger drivers either have whizzers or need mods and that reduces their imaging capability and does not necessarily bring lower bass, they can just move more air.
If one finds more bass is needed, as per Toole, add subwoofers or look at a WAW (Woofer Assisted Wideband), but that usually pushes cost up quite a bit if one does not want to sacrifice quality, althou there are some exceptions.
And that does not take inflation into account.
Do a search. You willfind lots of controversy. Mainly between those that have heard it, and those who are making judgements without hearing it (so tey are just guessing).
More pictures here:It's not easy being green -- just pictures
You will need something to drive the speakers. For now the iPhone can be a reasonable source, but the small size typically means some compromises on the DAC and the analog circuitry after it (hard to fit decent caps in such a small package). I use one (an iPod actually) in my briefcase system.
Don’t believe what James said about amps. They are every bit as important as the spaeaker and speakers and amp are a system and should not be considered separately. One could put together a reasonable $50 amp, but it would take some diy, a donor chassis, heatsinks, and power supply gotten free or cheap, and some luck. The ACA kit is just over $300 and gives you everything you need, one could take more effort and likely put one together for $100.
dave
The 2 amps you linked are probably fine, likely not up to a smaller diy job, the Yamaha got good reviews but is built cheap, heavily compromised because of all the features, and likely does not match the others.
dave
dave
Are you saying if I DIY the amp it would likely result in a better quality amp than the 2 examples (Rotel & Audiosource)? That's a strong statement, esp at the $100 - $200 price point...
I have not considered doing a DIY amp build. Hmm, interesting.
DIYing an amp very quickly becomes expensive compared to buying one. Speakers are a little different, it can be worth while making them. PS, don't believe everything Dave says 😉 if you like bass a "fullrange" (no such thing 🙂) is going to have intermodulation distortion.
Yes, a diyamp can be better, particularily if we are talking vintage vrs current.
As Matt says, one can easily go over the top, particularily tube amps, and why i would suggest a full kit as opposed to digging deep into diying it from scratch.
dave
As Matt says, one can easily go over the top, particularily tube amps, and why i would suggest a full kit as opposed to digging deep into diying it from scratch.
dave
Interesting to hear the communities' opinions on this. I'll consider all suggestions offered. Though an amp is not really the focus of the thread. It was more on what type of speaker solution I should go for based on the listening space I have. Once I know for sure which type/kit of speaker I will build, then I will consider the amp since impedance, power requirements and sensitivity will set an overall narrative as far as amp class and type.
lots of my friends asked me to recommend speakers if they do not want to go crazy expensive
i do recommend sony ss-cs5, not only i heard them, i measured them, they are exceptional for the money
add sub and you are there
i do recommend sony ss-cs5, not only i heard them, i measured them, they are exceptional for the money
add sub and you are there
Thanks, I looked into your suggestion. Those look pretty decent for their price, though i'm leaning towards a DIY build. I found that much higher quality sound is possible for a given price point this way. Not to mention more flexibility as far as finish and other build parameters...
Dont bother with the dinas. For me I initially loved full range drivers but the positives were quickly outweighed by the negatives.
Look for sb acoustics based designs, you get a lot for your money with that brand.
Look for sb acoustics based designs, you get a lot for your money with that brand.
Thanks, checked those out. Most of those kits are more than I would spend on a DIY solution. If I was going to spend that kind of money, there are some truly superb speakers in the $800 - $2000 price range.
If i'm going to DIY it, i'm thinking $300 - $400 at the very maximum. My small, noisy space would not likely benefit from anything beyond that range, at least for now...
If i'm going to DIY it, i'm thinking $300 - $400 at the very maximum. My small, noisy space would not likely benefit from anything beyond that range, at least for now...
Last edited by a moderator:
We DIYers have a budget problem in that manufacturers buy drivers by the thousand and in some cases by the hundreds of thousands and get huge discounts for doing so, That $50- midrange might only cost a big company a couple of dollars; we can't compete so we have to be smarter and we seem to do that by building better cabinets and being specific to our own particular situation.
Rather than start a speaker build now; I would be looking to improve the room you are listening in as the first step.
Most of us don't DIY to save money; I was disabused of that aspect on the very first set of speakers I built but what I built is still after 20 years a very good pair of speakers, just not WAF friendly
Unfortunately, I don't have that option for at least the next year or so. I have to make due with the space I have. I could conceivably wait another year to address the HiFi issue, but why? If I can put together something that scales out to my next listening space, I feel like I should go for it.
I have some Mark Audio full range drivers on my desk in front of me right now and wouldn't recommend them. They are remarkable for a full range driver but you can't overcome the physics that a small full range driver just can't do undistorted bass and has a small sweet spot due to narrow high frequency dispersion. The most budget option would be a second hand pair of Behringer Truth B2031A (amps included):
Behringer Truth B2031A Review
then add an outboard DSP to perform correction and possibly subs.
Behringer Truth B2031A Review
then add an outboard DSP to perform correction and possibly subs.
In the rush to push the great answers, a lot of key questions unasked:
what instrument do you play and who genre of music do you listen to?
what are you sources - old vinyl or newer CDs, or... ?
how big is your room and do you sit in one location and need only good quality only in one spot?
ambience matters?
handy with a table saw? Handy with a soldering iron?
how's your treble hearing?
what instrument do you play and who genre of music do you listen to?
what are you sources - old vinyl or newer CDs, or... ?
how big is your room and do you sit in one location and need only good quality only in one spot?
ambience matters?
handy with a table saw? Handy with a soldering iron?
how's your treble hearing?