I wasn't clear (thank you, 5th element, for previous clarification: just talking about stereo but using a 4-amp A/V receiver to drive 4 drivers. Amps are all the same, just "commodities" as the economists say.
I take for granted nobody would make a system today without DSP. Just weird trying to cobble together a good quality crossover when you can just dial and re-dial and re-dial choices on a Behringer DSP or Mini.
Hence, you have a stereo system with two speakers which requires a total of 4 amps plus a self-powered sub.
As a musician, no way you can make a superior system of full-range speakers to meet your taste. But remove the low bass, and you can easily make two very high quality and small size speakers and put them on speaker stand poles.
So you have two little speakers and a sub which you can hide anywhere in your room. Or piece of cake making a good sub from mail order with a plate amp and shaped so as to be hidden under a couch, over a bookcase, or anywhere.
For $50 you can buy great amps at the thrift store. Using REW, an honourware app (and without needing anything but an 8-Ohm load resistor, light bulb, or toaster), you can test it for S/N, THD, and FR.
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It is. And its very graceful clipping makes it sound like it has way more power than its 8w would suggest. Probably similar to a hard clipping 40w A/B amp.
Eagerly awaiting the arrival of the companion ACP+ preamp (for a 2nd system) and the B4ish XO (for the big rig upstairs).
dave
Chrisjmartini, within the constraints of your budget, and the type of music you listen to, I don't think you could do much better than getting a pair of JBL 308P mkII for $380.
These have amplifiers built-in so you don't need to worry about spending extra on that. An upshot of this is also that the internal crossover is active, which has sonic benefits.
They also have a DSP onboard for doing boundary EQ which is useful for adjusting for location, e.g. when placed up against a wall.
The tweeter is also in a waveguide which helps control wall reflections in a small room.
These have a great frequency response and polars and there are plenty of rave reviews online of this one and its predecessor LSR 308 (I've got a pair of those), pretty much all agreeing they are steal for the money and the best budget speaker at this price level.
The little brother, the 305P, is perhaps a little bit more refined but would force you to give up quite a bit of bass and SPL. However, if size is an issue, this is your best option.
The predecessor came in white as well if that's important to you. The successor only comes in black.
Then get a Raspberry Pi with a really good top hat DAC, like the AUDIOPHONICS DAC I-Sabre ES9038Q2M, and use this as your source and client for Roon.
Volumio is a cheaper alternative to Roon but Roon in combination with a Tidal subscription is pure bliss, both from a SQ and music-discovering perspective. Very convenient as well as you can control your source/client (RPi + DAC), including volume, using Roon's mobile app.
Future upgrades could be Audiolense to generate FIR filters (room correction) that you can run inside Roon (easy) and/or a subwoofer (especially if going for the 305P over the 308P).
These have amplifiers built-in so you don't need to worry about spending extra on that. An upshot of this is also that the internal crossover is active, which has sonic benefits.
They also have a DSP onboard for doing boundary EQ which is useful for adjusting for location, e.g. when placed up against a wall.
The tweeter is also in a waveguide which helps control wall reflections in a small room.
These have a great frequency response and polars and there are plenty of rave reviews online of this one and its predecessor LSR 308 (I've got a pair of those), pretty much all agreeing they are steal for the money and the best budget speaker at this price level.
The little brother, the 305P, is perhaps a little bit more refined but would force you to give up quite a bit of bass and SPL. However, if size is an issue, this is your best option.
The predecessor came in white as well if that's important to you. The successor only comes in black.
Then get a Raspberry Pi with a really good top hat DAC, like the AUDIOPHONICS DAC I-Sabre ES9038Q2M, and use this as your source and client for Roon.
Volumio is a cheaper alternative to Roon but Roon in combination with a Tidal subscription is pure bliss, both from a SQ and music-discovering perspective. Very convenient as well as you can control your source/client (RPi + DAC), including volume, using Roon's mobile app.
Future upgrades could be Audiolense to generate FIR filters (room correction) that you can run inside Roon (easy) and/or a subwoofer (especially if going for the 305P over the 308P).
Update: Pulled the trigger on an amp! It's a NAD C328 Hybrid Digital DAC Amplifier.
I decided against the DIY route for the amp. I felt as though it was more important to build the speakers myself as I really think building the speakers is potentially a much higher value proposition. Additionally building the amp would be a bit too ambitious at this point. I also needed the amp to have optical digital inputs (hence a built in DAC) along with the regular analogs to support my current setup. I also needed it to be scalable and somewhat future proof with a line level sub out in case I want to add a sub later after I move.
I also decided against something vintage or older used equipment as I really couldn't find anything with the features that I needed. If I were more patient, I could keep searching over several months, but I don't want to build the speakers and then have them sit there for months while I wait until the right used amp comes along.
The reason for choosing the NAD was that it really places itself well at the price point in features and sound quality. It straddles the line between what is considered mainstream and audiophile quality. It is higher cost than I was budgeting for, but models in the lower price ranges ($200 - $400) made me hesitate for one reason or another in terms of lacking a feature or some other compromise in build or sound quality. I was really close to choosing the Yamaha A-S301 or A-S501 integrated amps, but the NAD reviewed better in terms of sound, build & component quality (It has a very impressive DAC and amplifier section).
I have also ordered all the DIY tools for building the speakers: soldering/electrical and basic wood finishing stuff.
Now onto the speakers. Taking another look at all the kits I previously researched and will make a decision later today or tomorrow...
I decided against the DIY route for the amp. I felt as though it was more important to build the speakers myself as I really think building the speakers is potentially a much higher value proposition. Additionally building the amp would be a bit too ambitious at this point. I also needed the amp to have optical digital inputs (hence a built in DAC) along with the regular analogs to support my current setup. I also needed it to be scalable and somewhat future proof with a line level sub out in case I want to add a sub later after I move.
I also decided against something vintage or older used equipment as I really couldn't find anything with the features that I needed. If I were more patient, I could keep searching over several months, but I don't want to build the speakers and then have them sit there for months while I wait until the right used amp comes along.
The reason for choosing the NAD was that it really places itself well at the price point in features and sound quality. It straddles the line between what is considered mainstream and audiophile quality. It is higher cost than I was budgeting for, but models in the lower price ranges ($200 - $400) made me hesitate for one reason or another in terms of lacking a feature or some other compromise in build or sound quality. I was really close to choosing the Yamaha A-S301 or A-S501 integrated amps, but the NAD reviewed better in terms of sound, build & component quality (It has a very impressive DAC and amplifier section).
I have also ordered all the DIY tools for building the speakers: soldering/electrical and basic wood finishing stuff.
Now onto the speakers. Taking another look at all the kits I previously researched and will make a decision later today or tomorrow...
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Congrats on the new amp!!
Maybe I can help you out, or act as sometime to workout your thoughts with on choosing a kit. I'm sure some other members will chime in too
What are your priorities?
Maybe I can help you out, or act as sometime to workout your thoughts with on choosing a kit. I'm sure some other members will chime in too
What are your priorities?
How nice of you to offer!
These are my requirements (if possible)
* appropriate for the room size yet somewhat scalable in that when I move into a larger space, the speaker won’t get lost. Room size is 11’x17’ but I only have just over half that for listening.
* I’m thinking a larger bookshelf or small tower size, 2 or 3 way design, planar tweeter if possible, 5.25 - 6.5 woofer, ported or sealed.
* as flat and accurate as possible for the budget. I want to avoid a speaker that calls attention to itself sound wise. It should output what is put into it. I am going for an open, decent soundstage despite the room limitations.
*I don’t have the tools or space for advanced woodworking, so I was looking for one of those flat pack knock down type cabinets with 45 degree angle cuts for easy assembly.
* they need to be able to play well at low to normal volume as the back wall behind my sofa is shared with a neighbor.
* Budget is $300 to $400.
I am treating the room today with some acoustic panels to help alleviate reflections. I am also using some dense acoustic foam panels behind where the right speaker will be placed as it will be very close to a back and right wall. The left speaker will be sticking out in front of an archway.
Sorry, I know that is allot of requirements...
I think for the OP, a bookshelf kit with flatpack is now the best option if i read this tread. The C-Note and Overnight sensation are 2 easy to build kits availeble on several shops, and part express has the flatpacks also. They are very well designed and tested and build a lot by starters in this speaker building hobby and in general considered very good and neutral sounding. I'm more a fullrange fan, like Dave, but i don't think there are kits availble with flatpacks that fit the OP's wishes. So that may be the best solution now.
And what is also possible, is to let the cabinet be build by a carpenter. I'm building speakers myself, but as i have no real wood workshop, i go to a cnc workshop in my region and let them do the cutting of the wood, so i have my own (custom) flatpack with my own design. It's not that expensive to do that.
I’ve read several accounts of those who have built and/or reviewed the c-notes. They are a pretty solid option for sure. However, since I will not be adding a sub right now (waiting until after I move probably later this year or next year), that little 5” woofer doesn’t seem like it would produce low enough bass extension. It’s tough to say really as my current listening space is small.
DIYSG Apollo kit (has flat pack): Apollo Speaker Kits
DIYSG Helix kit (has flat pack):
Helix Speaker Kits
Those above options are great If you want bass without a subwoofer. If for some reason you want less bass for now, I'd go with one of their HT/HTM kits
Denovo Home Theater Speakers
GR Research kits seem good. I'd personally go for the X-Series kits or the A/V-O kit if you want a really unique experience that you couldn't buy.
Speaker kits, loudspeaker design services, sub-woofers and amplifiers. - DIY loudspeaker Kits
I doubt you could go wrong with any of the kits I listed.
Dont forget full rangers are an option too. Markaudio's newest Pluvia Seven drivers seem pretty good. I forgot who makes a Frugal Horn flat pack in the US, but I know someone on this board knows.
DIYSG Helix kit (has flat pack):
Helix Speaker Kits
Those above options are great If you want bass without a subwoofer. If for some reason you want less bass for now, I'd go with one of their HT/HTM kits
Denovo Home Theater Speakers
GR Research kits seem good. I'd personally go for the X-Series kits or the A/V-O kit if you want a really unique experience that you couldn't buy.
Speaker kits, loudspeaker design services, sub-woofers and amplifiers. - DIY loudspeaker Kits
I doubt you could go wrong with any of the kits I listed.
Dont forget full rangers are an option too. Markaudio's newest Pluvia Seven drivers seem pretty good. I forgot who makes a Frugal Horn flat pack in the US, but I know someone on this board knows.
Btw, my personal opinion for what you are looking for, price, and ease of build I'd totally go for the DIYSG Helix with a flat pack. Great SB tweeter, and I've had great experiences with DIYSG's flat packs. You can see my day 1 (unboxing) and day two (putting one enclosure together) of my current HTM-12 build here. I think pictures really speak for themselves.
Let's Build: DIYSG New HTM-12 (2020): Build Log
Let's Build: DIYSG New HTM-12 (2020): Build Log
I am leaning heavily in the direction of the Swan/HiVi DIY 3.1 kit. It did get a little criticism in this thread as it is an MDF cabinet that was said to be inadequately braced. I have now gone over the plans for this with a fine toothed comb. Though i'm no expert on enclosure design, it does seem up to the job of avoiding unnecessary vibrations to enough of a degree that I wouldn't notice. The quality of the drivers is superb. There are a couple of great community resources around this speaker. Several reviews have also noted that there is a noticeable bump in the upper mid-range. The community has also come up with some detailed plans on how to substitute different capacitors and inductors to smooth out the response. it's called the 'perfectionist' option and at least on paper, the specs look like it would be a perfect fit for my situation:
* Great quality drivers (HiVi 6.5" kevlar woofer, 2" fabric dome midrange, isodynamic ribbon tweeter)
* Easy assembly - MDF panels cut with 45° angles - I can assemble these with a minimum of tools.
* They are a perfect size - A large bookshelf speaker that will scale well when I move. They should be versatile enough to play well in the current, as well as future listening space.
* They come with crappy black vinyl veneer, which I wouldn't use. I was planning on a white satin finish to match my tv stand anyhow.
The ONLY issue I am seeing with that particular kit is that they are rear ported. The reason this is an issue is that rear ported designs need more space behind them (typically 2 to 3 feet). I will only have 6" -12". So, not ideal. If that was my biggest concern, then the C-notes would fit the bill. So far I feel like the Swan/HiVi kit has more positives than negatives though...
It is not a good idea to judge based on the size. We use 2 x Silver Flute W14 (5 1/4”) in a Woden ML-TL and they go plenty low.
dave
Saw your day1/day2 build logs. Wow! Those HTM-12's remind me of the Klipsch Heresy. Looks like a nice kit as well.
I looked at those Helix Dome MTMs you mentioned. A decent looking kit. I like the driver configuration.
Good point. I was more concerned with scalability. However, since i'd likely be adding a sub once I move to a larger space, it lessens the issue somewhat.
Adding subs or helper woofers is a solid direction when growing an existing satelite. I do full-range boxes, and if i need more then it is a WAW (Woofer Assited Wideband) where ones adds woofers to the FR box. They make few excuses.
And do keep in mind that if you find a box you like but no flat-paks are available i would suspect Bob Berner would be happy to add them to his portfolio. The ones he has done are at a high level of quality.
You might add Tysen V2 to the list of suggestions, it is the example with a pair of W14 woofers. Comes with a passive XO design and can be bi-amped if you grow in that direction. It is a 2nd generation design, i am quite proud of it, and the drivers are fairly inexpensive.
(From before the old acronym [FAST] was abandoned for the more descriptive WAW, i should fix that)
dave
And do keep in mind that if you find a box you like but no flat-paks are available i would suspect Bob Berner would be happy to add them to his portfolio. The ones he has done are at a high level of quality.
You might add Tysen V2 to the list of suggestions, it is the example with a pair of W14 woofers. Comes with a passive XO design and can be bi-amped if you grow in that direction. It is a 2nd generation design, i am quite proud of it, and the drivers are fairly inexpensive.
(From before the old acronym [FAST] was abandoned for the more descriptive WAW, i should fix that)
dave
I haven't heard that one before, I wonder what the reasoning behind it is? because it has nothing to do with the physics, which tells me that at the frequencies the port operates the wavelengths are much larger than the speaker, so response is omni directional, ie, it doesn't matter which way the ports point.
I could possibly see airflow issues if it were an inch or two from the wall, but other than that the only other reason I could think it might be a problem is if there was interference between the wave from the driver and the wave from the port reflecting off the rear wall... And 2-3 ft wouldn't eliminate that, just move it lower in frequency. The real thing to consider would be whether the crossover has baffle step compensation built in or not. If it doesn't, you're better off closer to the wall actually.
I actually only discovered this controversy during my current research. I actually have not noticed this as an issue with the KEFs I used to own (different era, different apartment). Granted, they were front ported and about a foot in front of the wall. They also were at least 3 feet from either side walls.
I don't have experience with rear ported speakers, only sealed enclosures and front ported.
I found articles here & here & here.
Reading into this further, it seems like the 5 or 6 inches the right speaker will be placed from the front wall may not really be a problem. However, it will be very close to the right side wall (only a couple of inches). I just acoustically treated the room today and there is a large acoustic panel on that right wall. I am also adding 5 acoustic foam panels on the front wall directly behind the right speaker. My biggest issue with the room is actually the rear wall. My sofa is right up against it. So my listening position is about a foot from the rear wall. I have placed several acoustic panels across this wall. It's not a perfect solution as I cannot reposition the sofa, but I think this may help alleviate the issues to some extent. I don't have enough space for bass traps, but the sofa is one of those overstuffed types. A bit large for the room, but it may also help a little. I can already tell the acoustic treatment has made a difference in the room. I noticed it with normal speaking conversation. There is much less reverberation off walls. Those are good panels for sure.
Once I am finished I will post some photos.
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