...From what I see in the room it was already pretty good acoustically, and the listening position (in the conditions you have) is not bad. As you can see the room is:
-Pretty irregular, as the stuff is not symmetric
-You have big heavy sofa and in wall closet pretty much in the corner, which acts as bass trap
-Listening space is furthest from outside noise.
No offense, but I also somehow feel that you may have ruined relationship with landlord, blowed the budget, ruined your room, as in some specific frequencies (I guess 1k-3kHz) you will have strange feeling of the sound reflection coming from the top which is probably the most annoying thing and to make matters worse, they will have the most delay, as the ceiling is furthest from the sound of source and your ear. There will be no "ambience" feeling, but the single annoying echo... The simplest way would have been not to put those health hazards on the walls but to put fluffy thick carpet under that coffee table and one skyscraper/linear type diffuser behind your head... And another improvised "bass trap" in the any other (lets say random) room corner.
The speaker placement just around tv near ear level will work I think.
I lived in very very noisy apartment, and I totally agree that you cannot deal with the noise coming from inside the building but you can be VERY effective with dealing from noises coming from the window. Lines of defense:
-Keep the window closed, if you can. Even the tiniest gap in the window is making things much worse. Look in window construction, maybe there is something to do to tighten it with screwdriver or smth. Also, depending on the geographical region, there may be winter/summer setting, in "winter" setting the window will close tighter. This is the most important and cheapest thing to do.
-Put heaviest, thickest curtains possible
-If the wall is thick and window is in pronounced arc - glue those mats you bought there.
-You cannot deal easy with the lowest frequency sounds, so the real or improvised bass traps as the big fluffy armchairs, beds, sofas and similar inside room make huge difference.
-Pretty irregular, as the stuff is not symmetric
-You have big heavy sofa and in wall closet pretty much in the corner, which acts as bass trap
-Listening space is furthest from outside noise.
No offense, but I also somehow feel that you may have ruined relationship with landlord, blowed the budget, ruined your room, as in some specific frequencies (I guess 1k-3kHz) you will have strange feeling of the sound reflection coming from the top which is probably the most annoying thing and to make matters worse, they will have the most delay, as the ceiling is furthest from the sound of source and your ear. There will be no "ambience" feeling, but the single annoying echo... The simplest way would have been not to put those health hazards on the walls but to put fluffy thick carpet under that coffee table and one skyscraper/linear type diffuser behind your head... And another improvised "bass trap" in the any other (lets say random) room corner.
The speaker placement just around tv near ear level will work I think.
I lived in very very noisy apartment, and I totally agree that you cannot deal with the noise coming from inside the building but you can be VERY effective with dealing from noises coming from the window. Lines of defense:
-Keep the window closed, if you can. Even the tiniest gap in the window is making things much worse. Look in window construction, maybe there is something to do to tighten it with screwdriver or smth. Also, depending on the geographical region, there may be winter/summer setting, in "winter" setting the window will close tighter. This is the most important and cheapest thing to do.
-Put heaviest, thickest curtains possible
-If the wall is thick and window is in pronounced arc - glue those mats you bought there.
-You cannot deal easy with the lowest frequency sounds, so the real or improvised bass traps as the big fluffy armchairs, beds, sofas and similar inside room make huge difference.
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Hmm... The calendar shows year 2020 and we, as species in general are looking for comfort and laziness... So my suggestion would be
Option1. Avoid restoration of vintage stuff. They are best to be left for museums, nostalgic talks in the forums of other non-audio purposes. Current systems $ for $ blow out of the water pretty much everything from old times. Restoration is expensive hobby, much more than building it from scratch, if you are unlucky - it is close to a factor of 10. I think the only way to go restoration route is if there is drop-in replacement of known price and only in condition "new" for the parts and you know which exact part/driver is malfunctioning. In one of the worst cases you will end buying 4 or 6 units of the same speaker with exactly the same problem... I think you will not want to go into restoration of suspensions and similar stuff.
My last project was to restore old soviet Vega 15ac-109, 15W, 2-way , made in ~1980 (similar to another "classic" S-30). The reason of this was purely nostalgic, as those are my fathers in law and it was done to please old man. Total cost was ~twice if I bought another the same speakers of the better condition and 3-4times than folded full range MLTL build, with the of the shelf Dayton/Vifa/Visaton/FaitalPRO/younameit affordable driver. I was doing my MLTL project at the same time, so I had chance to compare speakers in the same conditions, there was pretty much none of the things where Vegas were better or at least in the same level... It was rubbish then it is much bigger rubbish now. Besides, I am building another MLTL for my father in law... Lesson learned, case closed.
Option2. There are many of nice speakers in the 200-400EUR range in Europe that translates to 180-350 USD in US as stuff is cheaper out there. Recently a friend bought big Heco 3way with discount (I feel the are 2.5 with 4 drivers per cabinet) floor standers, the model is Victa Prime smth - they are surprisingly good for ~400EUR
Option3a. Build full-ranger, as you can spend everything for CNC service and just the pair of the speakers. No crossover (!!!). I dont know your local CNC prices, but I guess 50% for drivers, 30-40% for CNC is in worst case, so for 150-200USD for drivers you can chose from pretty much everything non-exotic on the market from 3-4 inch range or even some smart 5-6'.
I am very very impressed with the TABAQ, to be precise - my designed MLTL, which is similar in dimensions. It has some shortcomings, but the advantages are very very unexpected: deep non-boomy bass, natural sound, pinpoint accuracy, and what is the most surprising - it has some punch!
If you go for tower straight line shape and have some patience to build in small steps - you will need only 4 small clamps for one cabinet. Definitely go for variable length vent, it is the one of the best investments.
Option3b. Build 2 pairs... CNC pricing will be relatively lower for the bigger amount, the second pair will take less time to build, probably the result will be more pleasing to the eye and you can entertain yourself till the worlds end by trying to feel the tiniest differences between them.
I did exactly that with RS100-8 and PS95-8... In your case you can even build one TABAQ and one WIBAQ, with bigger driver and still be under budget.
It has separate thread which is worth to read, even if it takes 4days...
Option 3c. The same as 3a - CNC shop + drivers, but do not do anything to bare plywood. You will lose looks, but after you relocate another time, take just drivers with you.
Well I started my DIY audio path out of curiosity. Was trying to get why everyone is talking so much about Cyburgs and TABAQ. I had no chance to listen to them so the only way was to build one of them myself. It was worth it! 😉
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How would I have affected my relationship with my landlord? All panels were installed with gel tape. Easy to remove and won't damage walls. I did spend more than I budgeted in room correction alone, but I feel it was worthwhile as I can hear the difference even before building the speakers. Outside noise no longer bounces around like it used to, so the perceived noise level is lower. The nice thing is that once the speakers are placed, I can test the room properly and either remove or move various panels to get the desired affect. You have to understand, the room serves more than a single purpose. It has to be versatile enough to accommodate entertainment (music, movies, relaxation), as well as serve as a content creation/streaming studio. For the studio part, a very sensitive vocal microphone is used for recordings, so that part of the room needs to be more sound-proofed than the rest. This is why you see more panels on one side of the room than the other.
Possibly, although I can already tell from the sound of voices, the tv & the permeation of outside noise, the sound characteristics of the room have already improved. I won't know for sure until everything is in place and tested. I guess we'll find out.
How are the panels health hazards? They are constructed of low density polyester fibre. It is both safe to breathe in and touch. 230kg/m3 Density. With a NRC rating of .95. B1 level flame retardant.
Good suggestion on the carpet. I was planning to add another area rug like the dark blue one on the other side of this room, but smaller.
As far as bass traps, there really isn't enough space to add these unfortunately. Bass traps require some depth to be effective.
* Windows will be closed when studio is being used or critical listening to some types of music. However, Most apartments here in SF do not have central A/C. The weather is mild and comfy most of the year, aside from 2 or 3 months in late spring/summer. There is a large window a/c unit in the bedroom, but it's only effective in the bedroom. It gets hot in this room. So airflow from open windows throughout the unit is important to keep a level of comfort. Also, the windows are double paned, but very old. RE: Winter/Summer Setting - LOL! I wish.
* Curtains are already the heavy, noise reduction type. It does make a dent in the noise, but you really have to experience this street to believe it! Not only a busy street right outside the window, but a freeway beside that! Thank god the bedroom is not on this side of the unit!
* Agreed about the furniture and closet as bass traps. They do act in that way to some degree.
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If you do notice ceiling reflections, could always put a panel or two on the ceiling... and hope that your gel tape is REALLY sticky 😀
Its a bit hard to talk this in my non-native language but I will try:
Most of what I can say is related to the "listening room" part of your apartment. My background is construction, and know a thing or two in sound dampening, but the "recording studio" part is out of my league...
If you can remove those panels without damaging paint - its probably not a problem. Anyway, this is not a acoustic problem.😉 Or you have a good landlord...
You spent money on those carpet like tiles, but anyone who understands physics knows they in this exact usage are not primary or even secondary for acoustic treatment. Why?
1.Because they are THIN and they are LIGHT and POROUS. That is only 1cm (!!!) of thickness and 230kg/1m3, so it is 4 times lighter than water. Of course you can hear the difference, because they dampen only some of the sound spectrum, as I already wild guessed 1-3kHz, but I was very generous - you are lucky if they dampen something at 3kHz, as the wavelength of 3kHz is ~11cm, which is more than five times your panel effective thickness. Instead of having only one problem - non-optimal room, you created another: distorted some narrow spectrum of, another very wild guess, from 8kHz to your listening limit. As somebody said - there is dramatic difference of carpet behind your back. I also can hear the difference if there is the carpet on the wall behind my back, but I am not sure I can call it "improvement".
2. The SHAPE stayed the same. It is still the same almost perfectly flat surfaces, with only 90 degree angles....
3. Your listening position is pretty much in the room corner, with walls very close together and you are putting those tiles on the closest possible walls. So it seems you are fighting the very early reflections, which, as somebody already said, our brain easy "combines" into one sound. I somehow think that it would be better to treat the exact opposite part of the room. But this is wild guess, as you already understand I am against carpets on the wall.
4. No MASS+SPRING principle. It may be called different in English. Those tiles have no mass element, and somehow feel that they act just as little tiny spring, way too little to have serious impact. All the best damping/absorption products in the market use this principle, for example thick, heavy panels covered/layered with perforated wood or metal. This is not rocket science. Soft furniture is exactly mass+spring: soft fluffy pillow-like stuffing and hard frame, clothes in the closet + wooden shelves and so on. You can see how that rule works by knocking empty drywall and filled with rock/glass wool. There is also heaps of knowledge on the internet, especially on the construction engineering.
5. We are used to live/work in some kind of similar environments: stuff, carpets, furniture, ourselves on the floor, nothing on the ceiling, a little or pretty much nothing on the walls. Lets call it home environment. We are used to how it looks, smells, feels and how the sounds travel. If you change something which has impact on those reflections - it is not an environment we are used to, it will sound different and most likely we will feel discomfort. But it depends what you were trying to achieve and is 100% subjective.
6. I am 50.0001% sure that you are doing room improvement thing a bit too early. Speaker placement is better first. No?
7. What is the goal of your room improvement? Can you define the goal in measurable digits (believe, this is very hard...)? Is it subjective and definable, subjective and not definable, combination of subjective/objective? For example if recording engineer has the task is to replicate normal home environment - maybe there is nothing you need to do?
I am not talking about the room itself. It is as it is. It is fully understandable that life goes on in there besides some occasional listening to the music.
If it was my apartment, and I would respect 20/80 rule and start with:
-Do as much as I can to reduce outside sound. This is the most important thing to do and will improve not just everyday listening but life quality in general
-Improvised or specially made bass traps in as many 3-corners as I can. You wrote that there is not possible to add more - this is very sad, this probably is in 10/90 rule.. There is already sofa+closet in one, so the acoustics in the lower Hz already may be not that bad. By the way, ceiling corners count too!!!
-I would guess that another pretty cheap and important thing to do is thick acoustic panel or big large piece skyscraper/linear type diffuser behind your listening position (my vote for thick panel, but my knowledge and experience about diffusers is very limited).... An entire wall shelf full of random size and properties things may be even better, but this is not much doable in your case. The good thing is that you can cover acoustic panel with some kind of painting reproduction, so it may even look nice.
-Some thick acoustic panels in specific places after measurements.
-Carpet on the ground near the sofa, for naked feet to be comfortable... 😎
-Put those tiles you already have one on another, like 100 of them and then put them in specific place, like corner or in the closet. 😉
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In our side of the pond we call systems or natural flow of air in/out of the building - ventilation. So, if your place does not have alternative air circulation only window in the noisy street... my condolences.
I live pretty much still in 3rd world country and the most popular windows are plastic frames, with double or triple layer sealed glass packet and it really has setting winter/summer. It is not a do-it-button, but it takes ~3-5min for one window to rotate special holders in its frame. The difference is how tight it squeezes sash to the frame. Almost everyone in my country got rid of old windows, as climate is cold, heating is expensive and heat losses through the old windows are big. During strong winds it is possible to see if there are cracks and use simple fluffy sealing tape. If air passes through - sound will too.
I multiple times checked, if we are talking about the same Polyester. It may be that it is general naming, as the exact material can be, from PET to PBS or PLA or whatever else. I would stick to my knowledge that most plastic things tend to burn, o to be more precise - they tend to release black smoke full of HC compunds when under heat/fire. My trust in some government defined ratings is minimal. In your case fire is not a hazard, as people get poisoned with carbon monoxide and fumes long before most of the things around them start to burn with open fire. The thing is that those tiles are open-porous, and you live near busy street. The effective surface area may be even 100 square meters or more. Every surface have tendency to be covered with oily residues from street, food cooking, which combined with dust, carbon particles will make a nice place for bacteria and fungi to grow. If you are extremely unlucky and climate zone is favorable - it may be nice home for younameit bugs. You do home cleaning yourself? How often do you plan to clean them? They need to be vacuumed the same way like normal carpet... And probably removed for washing every year or two. Fibers tend to dissolve under time, sometimes into tiny particles much thinner than your hair and if you very very extremely unlucky as that 0.01% of population, you may have direct allergy to it...
Everything being said, I wish you the best results!
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For the panels to receive a NRC rating of 0.95 (95% of the sound energy that contacts that material is absorbed and is not reflected back into a room) rating, they are measured at 4 test frequencies: 250, 500, 1,000 and 2,000 hz. Frequencies above 2khz are generally easy to absorb, so I have no doubt that these do fine above 2khz. Bass frequencies (below 250hz) are another matter. I know they don't really help in that range, aside from some very slight diffusion because of the low density of the poly fiber.
Yes agreed, still a flat surface for the most part. Though each panel has a beveled edge which acts as a diffuser (I realize the diffusion is very minimal).
Agreed, not ideal. But for a temporary solution in a small room, i'm not looking for miracles, just a few tweaks to reduce reflections in general and some absorption to prevent transmission through walls.
Yes, understood.
Good point! However, i'm an ex-musician who spent time in recording studios and various other acoustic environments with various methods of aacoustic treatments. My solution here is what I believe to be a compromise between the environment required for recording voice and listening to music in a normal home space. My partner wanted to cover the entire room with those panels, but I reasoned that it would be a good idea only if the room was for the single purpose of a recording studio and nothing else.
Yes agreed. I am 'jumping the gun' a bit as they say. But only because I've been living in apartments for most of my adult life and have had plenty of experience with noisy neighbors, loud music, etc. I know that since I have a neighbor just on the other side of the sofa wall, as well as a neighbor below me. Since I can hear when they play music, I know they will hear mine. So while this solution will not be a magic bullet, I feel as though i'm doing my due diligence to anticipate the problem before there is one. I'm probably over-thinking it (i do that sometimes).
I can't define it in technical specs. If I were in a house that I purchased, then I would bring out the sound meter, mirrors and more thorough and detailed solutions depending on the listening space. I did take background noise measurements before and after treatment with windows open and closed:
Before treatment:
* Windows open - 55 db average across a wide range of frequencies from below 62hz up to around 8khz.
* Windows closed - 46 db average across same range but frequencies beyond 500hz begin to roll off quite a bit.
After treatment:
* Windows open - 47.4 db average across same frequency range rolling off above 500hz
* Windows closed - 37.1 db average across same range, but a sharper roll off above 500 hz.
This is not bad considering how noisy the street and freeway in front of my window is.
These are all great suggestions. Again, i'm not planning to stay here to renew the lease in November, so I am hesitant to go too far with this treatment.
Those diffusion panels are beautiful, but expensive! I will probably invest in one or more of those in my next listening space depending on size and acoustics.
It is part of the plan to place another carpet under the coffee table in front of the sofa.
Yes, it's not ideal. The room connects to a dining room and kitchen, which have windows, but the main source of ventilation for the listening room are the large front windows which open to the busy street. It was 90℉ (32℃) in here yesterday afternoon. And that was with 2 large fans on full power! I escaped into the bedroom for the A/C.
Wow, very cool. We might have those here in the States, but I can't be sure. These old windows in my place are either open or closed, LOL!
To be honest, I gave very little thought to cleaning them. I do have to constantly vacuum and dust in this room every couple of weeks as ventilating the room from that front window brings some of the road dust inside. So it makes sense that I would need to pass the vacuum dust attachment over them every so often. As far as mold and bacteria, this area has pretty low humidity (<50%) compared to cities i've lived before, so not much of an issue with mold and the complications it can bring.
Again, many thanks for your advice, suggestions and taking the time to articulate your thoughts 🙂🙂
We do agree on most things, but this with this one the seller got you:
NRC rating is for the material itself, not the exact product. It is coefficient for material, not its measurement for the exact piece of material 😉 I think in English it is called dimensionless or smth and is a created thing for better naming, like electricity consumption ratings from A+++ to G(?). The thickness of sound proofing products decide how much of the energy will be reflected. They both can have rating of pure 1 but the thicker one (or two stacked together) will work better. You cannot bend physics laws.
I'm contacting the manufacturer as I think it would be an important detail for them to disclose. The test should be done on the product itself and not simply a material sample. I'll report back my findings.
The measurements you took do seem to indicate that the product as installed is working tho.
Not relevant to your current situation but in a different house I used cheap pressed wood pallets as a ceiling and as wall lining and those seemed to have excellent diffraction properties
Not relevant to your current situation but in a different house I used cheap pressed wood pallets as a ceiling and as wall lining and those seemed to have excellent diffraction properties
BUILD UPDATE:
Started preparing the enclosure MDF panels by sealing the interior sides with 2 coats of Rust-Oleum Bulls Eye Sealcoat Universal Sanding Sealer. I did this to add some rigidity to the panels. I know it's not necessary, but I didn't want to leave the interior unfinished (knowing that would have tweaked my OCD)! I avoided sealing the mitred edges so that they could remain porous. It gives the glue a perfect surface to adhere to. I will seal the exterior of the panels after the enclosures are assembled.
Also began mounting components to the crossover boards. Changed the default orientation of this particular inductor as it is fairly close to another coil and I wanted to avoid cross talk. It was a bit tricky to mount at that angle on the coil's edge rather than with it's air core facing upwards. I also had to add extensions to the leads, so that they would reach the contact points on the pcb:
EDIT - That second photo's aspect ratio is a bit skewed. If you click on it, it will display the image in it's correct aspect.
Next, i'll be gluing the cabinets together.
Started preparing the enclosure MDF panels by sealing the interior sides with 2 coats of Rust-Oleum Bulls Eye Sealcoat Universal Sanding Sealer. I did this to add some rigidity to the panels. I know it's not necessary, but I didn't want to leave the interior unfinished (knowing that would have tweaked my OCD)! I avoided sealing the mitred edges so that they could remain porous. It gives the glue a perfect surface to adhere to. I will seal the exterior of the panels after the enclosures are assembled.
Also began mounting components to the crossover boards. Changed the default orientation of this particular inductor as it is fairly close to another coil and I wanted to avoid cross talk. It was a bit tricky to mount at that angle on the coil's edge rather than with it's air core facing upwards. I also had to add extensions to the leads, so that they would reach the contact points on the pcb:
EDIT - That second photo's aspect ratio is a bit skewed. If you click on it, it will display the image in it's correct aspect.
Next, i'll be gluing the cabinets together.
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Looking good. I think that sanding sealer is the ingredient I was missing when I tried to do a high gloss finish on the last set I built - thanks for the tip!
The sealer also dries amazingly fast, even on the edges of the MDF, where it is soaked up like a sponge. I was able to apply coats twice within 10 minutes.
BUILD UPDATE:
Began assembling enclosures. I taped along exterior edges of all panels to avoid excess glue squeezing out and making a mess. Damn, that glue is messy. I felt like a pre-schooler learning arts & crafts, LOL!
Ratchet straps for tight, rigid bonding of panels:
Now, time to wait 24 hours...
Began assembling enclosures. I taped along exterior edges of all panels to avoid excess glue squeezing out and making a mess. Damn, that glue is messy. I felt like a pre-schooler learning arts & crafts, LOL!
Ratchet straps for tight, rigid bonding of panels:
Now, time to wait 24 hours...
The straps worked great. They had to be cut shorter as they were 12 foot and the ratchet mechanism couldn't handle so much of the strap being wound.
The blue is just painter's tape to secure and align the edges of the panels, prevent the glue from making a mess and lightening my sanding duties. 🙂