I went through this exercise with my Pass B1. I started with Wima, then onto the AudioPhiler and then onto Obbligatto. There is an audible difference but it is very small.
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It's not the W or the A or the O stamped into the insulation that changes the sound.
It's the different parameters and different values that change the signal and thus the sound.
It's the different parameters and different values that change the signal and thus the sound.
One of the toughest proves are those that should prove something that does not exists really does not exists.
I will try to give you some indirect proves. In my 30+ years working with audio, I never heard cheap and good audio capacitor. If you do, let me know, I am willing to buy a big lot of them.
Capacitor is in use to prevent DC come through allowing AC (audio) to go hopefully unchanged. Since none of the capacitors are perfect by many properties - there are good links at the start of these thread to read about those properties, some add more and some add more coloration or/and has non-linear capacitance regarding frequency. Last property is often notable when some capacitors are used, so the high-mid and high tones are muddy or simply cut off. For example, electrolyte capacitor has declared capacitance for low audio frequency but as the frequency raise, capacitance drop and for the highest audio frequency capacitance is so low that AC cannot even go through.
And if you open any audio capacitors review, there are few good and big, you will see that best capacitors are those expensive. (proof #1) Simply, materials used to produce those capacitors are expensive, they cannot make it cheap by using expensive materials. Again, I am not talking there are not expensive and bad parts. There are.
Do you know why gold plated RCA's are more expensive than those that are not?
Best capacitor is no capacitor at all, but sometimes capacitors must be used. In best designed circuits (preamplifiers) there are maximum 2 capacitors since every additional capacitor just degrade sound. Capacitor never NEVER make up something from sound, it just degrade it more or less. Capacitors does not produce sound.
Cheap Audiophiler capacitor is proof #2 that there are no cheap and good audio capacitors for audio. We can talk for anything else, but since this is Audiophiler thread, we talk about it and other audio capacitors.
Finally, proof #3 is market. When something is good and cheap (if such exists), demand will be high and price will go higher until balance between production and demand has been set. I will assume you are young and you did not learn this in school yet, but this is how this world works.
Now, you prove me there are good and cheap capacitors, I really want to buy some of them and use them in my circuits.
You have to prove it to yourself. Try constructing the Bastard Box from my Linear Audio article (here) and do an ears-only test. In a properly designed circuit (that is, one in which there is effectively no significant signal across the capacitor), you are highly unlikely to hear the difference by ear alone. I was surprised that neither I nor anyone else who tried was able to tell a cheap bipolar electrolytic from an expensive V-Cap when used in a coupling application as long as they did not know which of the choices were in circuit at any time except by listening.
If not shunted with PP or something else, no electrolyte has such linear capacitance over all audio frequencies which really cannot be heard. Working with those 30 or more years with audio circuits I can say I don't believe this "test". I don't need to build this up, many listeners that even does not know what capacitor is told me what sounds better when I was trying different parts.
You can try the experiment yourself or believe that you don't have to be bothered and can rely on faith and preconceptions rather than actual listening. Your choice.
You might want to think about voltage divider operation.
You might want to think about voltage divider operation.
Guessing a single file is not very significant one way or another.
It's an easy thing to rig up in real time with no questions about ADC capabilities, level matching, or whatever; you can take the trouble to test your beliefs or not. It's up to you.
It's an easy thing to rig up in real time with no questions about ADC capabilities, level matching, or whatever; you can take the trouble to test your beliefs or not. It's up to you.
You might like to review the theory of potential dividers.branislavm said:
I wonder how many journalists 'review' capacitors while blind to their identity and cost?
Because gold costs more money than nickel? And a sufficiently thick layer provides a good contact surface? A more interesting question might be: why are RCAs with very thin gold plating still more expensive than those without, when the gold plating is merely cosmetic as it wears off very quickly?
Is that so? Potential dividers again?
True of every component in every (reproduction) circuit. However, omitting these components may degrade sound even more.
Not true:
1. standard commercial capacitor prices are not set by the audio fashion business but by people who are building communications, military or medical equipment.
2. in a fashion business you can increase sales by increasing the price - cosmetics for ladies have always worked like this, more recently audio for men works partly in this way.
I have tried a similar test (single 10uF Panasonic cap followed
by 20k input impedance) with four people so far, and everyone
could easily detect when it was switched in.
BTW a Wima MKS (mylar cap - definitely not "audiophil") was not reliably detected.
I think while mylar might be already sufficient as coupling cap
any good industrial polypropylene cap (Cornell, Sprague, Roederstein etc.)
is certainly "good enough" (and exotic caps might in realty be of lesser
quality than those from experienced manufacturers).
Could you detail how the test was set up and the controls? Thanks.
edit: What was the 10u cap? Bipolar?
edit: What was the 10u cap? Bipolar?
Just a simple blind test, not intennded to proof anything to someone. The Panasonic cap was a normal polarized electrolytic and deliberately choosen because that's what you find quite often in consumer equipment. A bipolar and / or larger value might probably be OK as well.
BTW, I found the cap from the thread title on eBay and it has "Audiophiler Mkp-kondensotor" printed on it, apparently in an attempt to sound "German", the correct spelling would be "MKP-Kondensator" though. Not a product I would trust.
BTW, I found the cap from the thread title on eBay and it has "Audiophiler Mkp-kondensotor" printed on it, apparently in an attempt to sound "German", the correct spelling would be "MKP-Kondensator" though. Not a product I would trust.
When "any" capacitor is employed as a "coupling" capacitor, there should be virtually no AC voltage drop across it over the frequency range of interest. The capacitor should be sized accordingly. No voltage drop= no distortion. When the voltage drop begins to become significant, then it is no longer a coupling capacitor, rather a filter. Possible non-linearity, related to ceramic and polarized capacitors, when AC voltage is developed across them, is well known, and must be taken into consideration when used under such conditions. Such as is the case in "filter" design.
The only valid "subjective" evaluation is double blind testing under very carefully controlled conditions. The auditioning audience should not even be able to "see" the equipment being evaluated. Such is the power and influence of subjectivity and experimenter expectancy bias.
The only valid "subjective" evaluation is double blind testing under very carefully controlled conditions. The auditioning audience should not even be able to "see" the equipment being evaluated. Such is the power and influence of subjectivity and experimenter expectancy bias.
This is an audio myth, capacitor linearity has nothing to do with applied AC voltage across it, but with its intrinsic characteristics. 😉
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Note I said "AC" voltage drop not DC. AC voltage dielectric non-linearity is easily measured and well documented. People have tried to use non applicable AC drop testing to assess the possible "sound" of capacitors, however, it is not applicable to "audio"coupling capacitors "properly" chosen for the task.
The logic and basic analysis has already been discussed. Some people will just not accept it nor care about basic principles or evidence.
Remember Heinlein's quote about teaching a pig to sing.
D. Self made some distortion measurements of electrolytics as coupling caps which indicate that you should oversize them substantially for low distortion. Unfortunately the bean counters at large companies will prescribe 10u at places where it rather should be 47u and would nicely fit in the available space.
Sorry, I edited my post almost simultaneously with yours. 😱
More details here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/207544-ecc82-12au7-line-preamp-36.html#post3974352
And here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tube...pot-hidden-villain-preamp-13.html#post3975128
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