You're not letting me help you with the Epos M12i, are you Karl! I could do something with that one. A series crossover I think. It has some narrow baffle issues around 600Hz IMO. 😀
This is a super design that Troels did: TQWT-
You can really play with that one. I'd use a SEAS CA22RNY which is the same chassis. Perhaps 60 litres reflex? Some efficient 90dB tweeter. The filter is really quite simple, and you can do it other ways.
I think because Troels has his own 8" JA8008 proprietary designs, he doesn't explore much else along the same lines. 😉
This is a super design that Troels did: TQWT-
You can really play with that one. I'd use a SEAS CA22RNY which is the same chassis. Perhaps 60 litres reflex? Some efficient 90dB tweeter. The filter is really quite simple, and you can do it other ways.
I think because Troels has his own 8" JA8008 proprietary designs, he doesn't explore much else along the same lines. 😉
Haha sorry. I would want to move the M12i on really. I've had them for years and I would like something completely different. And I would really like to build some cabs myself as I know I could do a very good job of them.
That TQWT is a smart looking design but as you say the proprietary drivers where an instant turnoff.
How about this? Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
Dayton drivers aren't all that expensive, and Zapf characterizes this as a "high value" system.
Dayton drivers aren't all that expensive, and Zapf characterizes this as a "high value" system.
Who says you have to use the same drivers as the TQWT? It's a simple design that will work with lots of stuff. I've built designs like it myself. The bass filter is dead easy, the treble filter has a few variations. I used a KEF third order variant. 😀
I did learn that you need a good cast bass chassis for these sort of revealing designs. But otherwise a doddle. 😎
I did learn that you need a good cast bass chassis for these sort of revealing designs. But otherwise a doddle. 😎
Get your tools ready. 😀
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/212738-sb-acoustics-3-way.html
diVine Audio | Khanspire
Little Princess - March 2013 - Loudspeakermagazine 2013 | Loudspeakerbuilding
Statements
For a small room and moderate SPL levels, I don't think you have to have 2 x 8" woofers - 1 should be more than enough or 2 x 7" should do if they go low enough:
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy-sunflowers
Speaker Project - Amaroso -- 7/21/2013
diVine Audio | Garnacha
And you can easily turn any of the following smaller 3-ways into a floorstander, just fill the extra volume with sand and/or simply partition it off from the rest of the cabinet:
Speaker Design Works
Statements_Monitor
3-Way Classic
Some of these have already been suggested to you. I second those recommendations. I would expect all of these to have very, very good sound quality, although some will be a bit better than others. Some are going to cost more too. One objective way to make comparisons is to look at harmonic distortion and cone resonance measurements (in CSD charts) for each driver. You'll find a lot of the drivers in these projects measured at Zaph|Audio if you can figure out how to read them.
Don't forget that the baffles can be changed a little if you want. And it sounds as though with your skills and tools available, you could even change almost any rectangular cabinet into a curved sided one if you so desired. Like this for eg. - https://www.flickr.com/photos/91180571@N05/sets/72157632282529826/. Just keep the baffle dimensions and the internal volumes about the same.
Clearly btw, I'm suggesting sticking to a proven design - your chances of success with 1 of these is going to be much higher than playing around with a design yourself.
sadly, there doesnt exist a lot of DIY kits 3-way that have been heard by enough people and compared to enough successful commercial design to be certain of the quality of that said kit.
The diyhifisupply crescendo system is a 2 way + stereo sub and could be considered a 3 way, was designed bu Thorsten loesch a reknown designer: he's the main designer at AMR!!! and Ifi audio. You can be sure this would be SOTA. The kit will cost you though, around 2k with everything included even the plate amps though and could be the end of the road for anyone. Definitely hi- end
Jeff bagby is a good diy designer and one you can trust, but has not build any 3-way kit.
2 way + subwoofer is definitely a good way to go, but not the ultimate as the bass will still be mostly produce by a small woofer (5.5 or 6.5 '').
I really wish there's more 3-way offered in kit, but I think the reason theres not much is because its really hard to make a amazing 3-way, well much harder than to build a good 2-way.
I tend to agree with this. Even found that with a suitably high XO point a notch filter for the 2905-9900 (ScanSpeak Revelator) was not required.
To much XO means you are listening in part to the XO components and less to the drivers (and this robs many drivers of their dynamics). To little and you don't have adequate protection or roll off (so the nasty breakups are reduced). 2nd order LR is 6db down at XO which gives you a nice power response and adequate roll off.
Now getting back to the issue at hand...
Karl, 2 years ago I was in exactly the same boat. I wanted better speakers and though I had built speakers in the past my boxes never had the finish the commercial speakers have. I heard everything from Focal's 836W and Electra 1038 to KEF Q900 and R900 to B&W's 683 and CM9 to Monitor Audio's GX300 to Paradigm's Studio 100 and more including the Martin Logan ElectroMotion series. These speakers all left me wanting and many were more that what I wanted to spend (I live in India which has high import duties).
So I turned to designs from Troels, Zaph, Jeff B, Tony Gee etc. My search ended with Jim Salk and Rick Craig. I chose Rick Craig as he was willing to ship kits (drivers and crossovers) and I would save on the shipping and duties of the big heavy speaker cabinets.
This is my thread from that time.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/208311-selah-audio-ex-diyer.html
If you can build nice boxes any of the designs suggested earlier will give you more bang for the buck than commercial designs. If you intend to live without a subwoofer I would strongly recommend a design with dual 7-8" (narrows the baffle) woofers so you have move enough air for the bass. The SB Acoustics 3 way linked earlier is a good design and should fit your budget (not including wood, veneer and labour).
Between SB and Dayton I would take SB's drivers. Rick's Peridot system may also fit your budget. See more here. Peridot
I built much the same thing but with Excel woofers.
I wouldnt build any of those, but thats just me. I want to absolute best, and as long as any speaker hasnt been compared to enough other reknown speakers, I couldnt bring myself to spend 1k blindly.
That is the reason I went wth the continuum by bagby's. Those speakers as won every diy events they showed up too. So compared to probably 100 speakers, the continuum was pretty much always the most prefered design. I love the continuum and will never sell them. I'm still raising money to buy reference 3a de capo though. hehe
That is the reason I went wth the continuum by bagby's. Those speakers as won every diy events they showed up too. So compared to probably 100 speakers, the continuum was pretty much always the most prefered design. I love the continuum and will never sell them. I'm still raising money to buy reference 3a de capo though. hehe
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I understand you want something better. The older Epos were much better. Something like the epos 14 is said to be really really good, much better then epos newer line like your speakers.
Bagby's Continium is a very good speaker but it might not suit Karl's requirement for more bass slam. It's 5" woofer would be limited in that and Karl would need to pair this speaker with a subwoofer (or 2).
While I did not ABX test the Peridot (Excel) I built against the KEF, Focal, Monitor Audio etc. systems I do believe they surpass these speakers in performance and cost me a little LESS than half of what a pair of GX300 or R900 would have cost me in India.
BTW I never got the chance to compare the GX300 vs the R900 vs the Electra 1038 head on head either as they were all auditioned with different dealers, with different electronics (of similar pedigree) and in different rooms.
Are they better speakers, most surely. PMC, Tidal, come easily to mind, and I even heard a big Canton that was super but these were all 5-10x or more in price. Are they alternates to the Peridot, sure there are many, of the top of my head I would consider ScanSpeak's B741 (available as a kit from Madisound) as another contender. What Rick offers is: For anyone with some knowledge of carpentry, a full kit, designed to work together, with a pre wired crossover, with the savings you get from the transportation of heavy speaker cabinets (and any import duties on the same - Karl in in the UK).
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To echo what was said above, I think this is poor advice. The Continuums are small 2 ways in a sealed box that require a subwoofer to even begin comparing with a full range speaker. They may be good speakers for what they do but they are inappropriate for the OPs stated requirements.
Given the OPs budget it may be more a case of keeping the standard range woofers and replacing the expensive midrange and, perhaps, tweeter with standard range ones. Unfortunately this would require some crossover work which I suspect the OP does not want to do. But it is good to see at least one example of what I had wrongly assumed would be a popular DIY configuration.
Out of curiosity how have you handled the crossover of a metal midrange to a ribbon?
The crossover is Rick's design and though he did share the design with me (at a later date) I would be wrong to disclose that in public.
The double 8" + mid + tweeter is a rather common configuration and for good reason. A pair of 8s can satisfy most except HT requirements and some real low bass requirements.
However having speakers that can do more 95db @ <50hz at 3m (who sits 1 meter in front of a speaker anyway) also means one must have a suitable room (and preferably some degree of room treatment). So speakers like the Dave Wilson's Watt-Puppy, Jeff Joesph's Pearl, or Jim Salk's SoundScape 8, the "double 8" seem to be cater to a sweet spot for good bass from midsized speakers in a midsized room. The double 8 has one added advantage, the 2 bass drivers being different distances from the floor (often the nearest room boundary) will normalise each other's peaks and valleys in bass response (double 6 or double 10 would do the same thing but double 6s are often a tab too small and double 10s often a tad too big - OMG I am sounding like Goldilocks) 🙂
However having speakers that can do more 95db @ <50hz at 3m (who sits 1 meter in front of a speaker anyway) also means one must have a suitable room (and preferably some degree of room treatment). So speakers like the Dave Wilson's Watt-Puppy, Jeff Joesph's Pearl, or Jim Salk's SoundScape 8, the "double 8" seem to be cater to a sweet spot for good bass from midsized speakers in a midsized room. The double 8 has one added advantage, the 2 bass drivers being different distances from the floor (often the nearest room boundary) will normalise each other's peaks and valleys in bass response (double 6 or double 10 would do the same thing but double 6s are often a tab too small and double 10s often a tad too big - OMG I am sounding like Goldilocks) 🙂
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Dayton drivers are a lot more expensive in Europe. For example, the OP might consider 4 x RS225-8 for this project. From Parts Express that is $54.67 each (list $75.99) but from the European importer they are €71.30 ($96.64) plus postage from Germany. It is not twice as expensive but not far off.
And from what I remember SEAS and ScanSpeak are almost the same as US prices or maybe a little less hence a SEAS or ScanSpeak design might be more VFM. SB is made in SE Asia (Sinar Baja Electric - Indonesia) so might also have the same prices in the US and EU. Companies like Hiquaphon, Wavecor, SB, and even Gamut (Lars Goller of Gamut is also former ScanSpeak), I believe were all born out of the turmoil in the Peerless-VifaSpeak-ScanSpeak-DST-Tympany saga.
see post 35 here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/241363-best-7-mid-woofer-around-4.html
I know David Stephens of SB is an active member here and will know more.
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I have not propose to the op the continumm really, just pointing to build a reknown diy design.
Your advise to the op about building his own 3 way is really not the way to go. For someone that has no experience, I wouldnt recommend him to build a 3 way.
The crescendo from diyhifisupply is said to be even better in the midbass then the huge bastanis open baffle. Its a 8 inch mid, so that should be enough for the op.
But seriously, I would go with a used reference de capo 3 a mm. extension down to 40hz, ultra dynamic, can be had for 1.2 k used. mondially reknown, but its not diy though.
Why? The OP would seem to have considerable experience at cabinet building given his job.
The op has no experience at crossover design, but maybe you recommended to him to build a 3 way kit? if so, the user could build his own
but there no 3 way kit I would build since not enough reviews.
I have look a lot for a 3 way kit without much sucess. At least a 3 way that more then 5 person have heard and reviewed.
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