2-way: Waveguide + Cardioid-like

[doug20]

Probably so, but thats not my interest. I have done audio all my life and I want to pass on what I have learned. (Can't teach it, that's not possible!) I think that the audio community could benefit greatly from the knowledge that I have gained. I am not really into it for the money actually (contrary to popular belief). Compared to past salaries that I have had, or my current consulting rate, making speakers is chump change. But still, I am not about to take a loss or not get paid for my time. That would just be stupid.

FWIW, you have taught an entire generation of DIYers about horns and taught them to call everything waveguides too Honestly there wouldn't be active threads on 4 different forums where the term waveguide, constant directivity, etc isnt bantered around without the ground work you did over the years.

Education and subjective banter can be completely separated online. The education has never been a problem for so many and it isnt ignored although the "Noise" moves the discussion away from what is important.

 

[Tytte71]

Hi Keyser,

Do you have any news on the project, new measurements taken or listening impressions that you can share with us?

Cheers

 

[keyser]

Hi Keyser,

Do you have any news on the project, new measurements taken or listening impressions that you can share with us?

Cheers

It's been a while since I posted here, but doesn't mean I've been resting on my laurels! To begin with, I've finally generated a burst decay and I've done distortion measurements.

As I already said, the burst decay does not look nice. However, it doesn't really bother me. I've recently edited some sound files with an EQ-curve that looks more or less like the frequency response of the Selenium with the waveguide. The effect is very hard to discern in an ABX test, and only on specific material.

The distortion measurements were done in my room, but with the speaker set up as far as possible from the walls. The mic was at 1 meter. The level at 1 khz was about 100 dB, +/- 3 dB (calibrated SPL meter). The peak at 6.5k is real. It is audible on a sine-wave too. It is probably caused by a resonance, because there is an irregularity in the frequency response and impedance as well. It is also hardly dependent on level. I doubt it is audible on most music, but I may experiment with another driver in the future. I've got some BMS drivers on the shelve.



A more important development is that I've made some damping panels with a 4" layer of fiberglass, to damp early reflections. There's one on both sidewalls, two behind me and one at the frontwall. The effect is huge! RT went down from about 0.6 to 0.4, but what's probably more important, is that the ITDG is now almost 20 ms (ignoring the floor-reflection and ceiling reflection at -16 and -26 dB respectively)!

With the right recording the sound is now much more spacious and the direction of the speakers becomes difficult to identify. The room sounds as if it is much wider. Dry recordings sound a bit drier than they used to, but not to a disturbing extent. I'm a happy camper .

@Earl

Did you have a closer look at the data Keyser has send you. I would really like to hear your opinion about them...

I tried to open your polar program on your website (to see if you had mayde uploaded keysers data), but the program is not working (see attached error log)

He has looked at it, but he hasn't mailed his polar plots to me yet. I've received no replies after my last few emails to him. He's mentioned several times in these forums lately that he's currently very busy. Maybe that's why.

By the way, I've never been able to look at the polar program either. Although I have windows and microsoft explorer, it just won't run.

 

[gedlee]

He has looked at it, but he hasn't mailed his polar plots to me yet. I've received no replies after my last few emails to him. He's mentioned several times in these forums lately that he's currently very busy. Maybe that's why.

By the way, I've never been able to look at the polar program either. Although I have windows and microsoft explorer, it just won't run.

Busy is half the story, the other half is that I screwed up. I started making some major changes to the software and its become unstable and won't run. That means that I have to go back through my backups and find a point where it was OK and start again. A lot of work, and I just have not found the time to do it. I intend to and even looked at the problem the last couple of days.

But I remain terribly backed up on just about everything that I do. It seems like I could keep on top of workloads like this years ago, but now I find that I have to slow down. My health is good, but I do spend a lot of time in doctors offices. I had a tooth catastrophy from a botched implant done in Thailand some years back that has cost me three teeth (and three new implants), some 5-7000 $ and almost bi-weekly dental visits. Oh well enough of my problems.

What error do you get trying to run the web software. It still works for me.

 

[_Wim_]

This error seems very common:

PLATFORM VERSION INFO
Windows : 6.1.7601.65536 (Win32NT)
Common Language Runtime : 4.0.30319.239
System.Deployment.dll : 4.0.30319.1 (RTMRel.030319-0100)
clr.dll : 4.0.30319.239 (RTMGDR.030319-2300)
dfdll.dll : 4.0.30319.1 (RTMRel.030319-0100)
dfshim.dll : 4.0.31106.0 (Main.031106-0000)
SOURCES
Deployment url : http://www.gedlee.com/Polar_map.application
Server : Microsoft-IIS/6.0
X-Powered-By : ASP.NET
Application url : http://www.gedlee.com/Application Files/Polar_map_1_1_0_15/Polar_map.exe.manifest
Server : Microsoft-IIS/6.0
X-Powered-By : ASP.NET
IDENTITIES
Deployment Identity : Polar_map.application, Version=1.1.0.15, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=e3fbc8468c33b92b, processorArchitecture=x86
Application Identity : Polar_map.exe, Version=1.1.0.15, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=e3fbc8468c33b92b, processorArchitecture=x86, type=win32
APPLICATION SUMMARY
* Online only application.
* Trust url parameter is set.
ERROR SUMMARY
Below is a summary of the errors, details of these errors are listed later in the log.
* Activation of http://www.gedlee.com/Polar_map.application resulted in exception. Following failure messages were detected:
+ Downloading http://www.gedlee.com/Application Files/Polar_map_1_1_0_15/Polar_map.exe.config.deploy did not succeed.
+ The remote server returned an error: (404) Not Found.
COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION FAILURE SUMMARY
No transaction error was detected.
WARNINGS
There were no warnings during this operation.
OPERATION PROGRESS STATUS
* [11/6/2011 6:31:04 AM] : Activation of http://www.gedlee.com/Polar_map.application has started.
* [11/6/2011 6:31:07 AM] : Processing of deployment manifest has successfully completed.
* [11/6/2011 6:31:07 AM] : Installation of the application has started.
* [11/6/2011 6:31:08 AM] : Processing of application manifest has successfully completed.
* [11/6/2011 6:31:10 AM] : Found compatible runtime version 2.0.50727.
* [11/6/2011 6:31:10 AM] : Detecting dependent assembly Sentinel.v3.5Client, Version=3.5.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=b03f5f7f11d50a3a, processorArchitecture=msil using Sentinel.v3.5Client, Version=3.5.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=b03f5f7f11d50a3a, processorArchitecture=msil.
* [11/6/2011 6:31:10 AM] : Detecting dependent assembly System.Data.Entity, Version=3.5.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=b77a5c561934e089, processorArchitecture=msil using System.Data.Entity, Version=3.5.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=b77a5c561934e089, processorArchitecture=msil.
* [11/6/2011 6:31:10 AM] : Request of trust and detection of platform is complete.
ERROR DETAILS
Following errors were detected during this operation.
* [11/6/2011 6:31:11 AM] System.Deployment.Application.DeploymentDownloadException (Unknown subtype)
- Downloading http://www.gedlee.com/Application Files/Polar_map_1_1_0_15/Polar_map.exe.config.deploy did not succeed.
- Source: System.Deployment
- Stack trace:
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader.DownloadSingleFile(DownloadQueueItem next)
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader.DownloadAllFiles()
at System.Deployment.Application.FileDownloader.Download(SubscriptionState subState)
at System.Deployment.Application.DownloadManager.DownloadDependencies(SubscriptionState subState, AssemblyManifest deployManifest, AssemblyManifest appManifest, Uri sourceUriBase, String targetDirectory, String group, IDownloadNotification notification, DownloadOptions options)
at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.DownloadApplication(SubscriptionState subState, ActivationDescription actDesc, Int64 transactionId, TempDirectory& downloadTemp)
at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.InstallApplication(SubscriptionState& subState, ActivationDescription actDesc)
at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.PerformDeploymentActivation(Uri activationUri, Boolean isShortcut, String textualSubId, String deploymentProviderUrlFromExtension, BrowserSettings browserSettings, String& errorPageUrl)
at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.ActivateDeploymentWorker(Object state)
--- Inner Exception ---
System.Net.WebException
- The remote server returned an error: (404) Not Found.
- Source: System
- Stack trace:
at System.Net.HttpWebRequest.GetResponse()
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader.DownloadSingleFile(DownloadQueueItem next)
COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION DETAILS
No transaction information is available.

 

[_Wim_]

Do you run it from the pc on whoch you have some of the devellopment software used for the program? That could be the reason it works for you, but not for us (missing compononents or security policy). It used to run on my pc, but then something was changed.

On the older version I had to set my regional options in windows on "English -US", this probably due to the different use of points and comma's in Dutch and Englisch which resulted in calculation problems in your software.

But now this doesn't seem to help.

Hope you can fix it someday...

 

[gedlee]

Hi Wim

Yes, I have only tried the program on a computer that is also a development platform and yes this sometimes makes the difference.

Clearly a foreign setup that uses commas and decimal point differently than the US will not run because the data files are a fixed US format and they will be read in as garbage if this standard is changed in the application.

So my question is now does everyone have a problem, or only a few, and mostly overseas people? As I think about it, it is usually EU people who have a problem. The comma as decimal point will mess everything up. Not sure if I can fix that.

 

[_Wim_]

If I read the error log, I would think the following file is missing: Polar_map.exe.config.deploy

Googling a bit around, this can be caused by the building the solution for 'debug', instead of building it for 'release'. This could also explain why it works on your pc, as you have the necesarry softare running for debugging...

 

[gedlee]

Thanks Wim - that makes a lot of sense. I almost certainly did not do the "release" build. I forgot all about that.

 

[FrankWW]

Thanks Wim - that makes a lot of sense. I almost certainly did not do the "release" build. I forgot all about that.

Earl your ap works right now for me using Firefox 3.6.23.

In my Firefox browser extensions I have Microsoft .Net Framework Assistant 1.2.1 "which adds Click Once support and the ability to report installed .Net Framework versions to to the webserver".


I'm running XP 32 with all updates and fixes and Service Packs.

I have in my machine .NET Framework versions 1.1 and 2.2 SP2 and 3.0 SP2. All of them with all updates and fixes.

I also have MS Silverlight 1.0.30401.0 installed.

My settings for everything in the computer that asks for them are N American

I have IE 8 installed with updates but I don't use it except to talk to Microsoft.

I suspect it works for me because of the.NET stuff and the Firefox extension. But, heck, I don't really know why it works!

 

[gedlee]

Hi Frank

Yes, full support for .NET is critical and that is not always the case. I will try and compile it for "release" and upload it but if that is not the problem then I have to assume it is the .NET support.

If it weren't for "Click Once" I never would have been able to upload this progam as a web app. I am just not that well versed in web programming. My roots go back to FORTRAN running in 32K data and code memory spaces. These "web" guys cannot even fathom that even being possible.

 

[gedlee]

Please check if it is fixed. Compiled as "release" and reinstalled on the web.

If this doesn't work then I'm lost. It is certain that the language must be English, and the numerical format must not be a comma as a decimal point.

 

[col]

Keyser,

Have you done the damping mod to the D220Ti? A friend of mine (zog666) has some interesting and measurable results:

IMG_2616

col.

 

[_Wim_]

Its fixed for me also (I did not install anything extra since yesterday), so the compile for release did the trick for me probably.

I now get the calculation problem again as it used to be (see picture). By settings my regional options temporarly to US - Englsih, this is solved also.

Thanks for making the update!

 

[_Wim_]

Its fixed for me also (I did not install anything extra since yesterday), so the compile for release did the trick for me probably.

I now get the calculation problem again as it used to be (see picture). By settings my regional options temporarly to US - Englsih, this is solved also.

Thanks for making the update!

I think you can avoid these kind of problems by the current culture to the invariant culture in your program:


More info can be found here:
InvariantCulture Property

CurrentCulture Property

 

[gedlee]

Thats not so easy is it?

How did this format difference come about by the way? Who uses what?

 

[_Wim_]

I think the main issue is we (Belgium, The Netherlands..) use a comma for which you use a point, and the other way around.

As an automation engineer, I run into this problem occasionally, because some of our loggers export to US-format only, and when I have to do calculaton in excel on these, I need to change the "preferences" in excel (use of point and comma).

This explenation is maybe more clear:

3.5 Setting the Culture and UI Culture for Windows Forms
Set the CurrentCulture and CurrentUICulture properties if you wish to override the settings of the user or operating system. In general, you would want to specify a culture so that every part of the application's user interface is appropriate to that culture. So you must set it before the InitializeComponent method is called.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]// Put the using statements at the beginning of the code module[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]using System.Threading;[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]using System.Globalization;[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]// Put the following code before InitializeComponent()[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]// Sets the culture to French (France)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thread.CurrentThread.CurrentCulture = new CultureInfo("fr-FR");[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]// Sets the UI culture to French (France)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thread.CurrentThread.CurrentUICulture = new CultureInfo("fr-FR");[/FONT]

Note: The CurrentCulture property's default value is the system's User Locale, which is set in the Regional Options control panel. The CurrentUICulture property's default value is the system's UI Language, which is the language of your system UI. On Windows 2000 and Windows XP Multilanguage Edition, the CurrentUICulture defaults to the current user UI language settings.

(copied from Multilingual Applications in .NET)


In your case, I would add the following code:

Thread.CurrentThread.CurrentCulture = new CultureInfo("en-US");
Thread.CurrentThread.CurrentUICulture = new CultureInfo("en-US");

I think something like this should do the trick. Off couse, it is difficult so say without source code...

 

[RockLeeEV]

But I can't deny that I don't belong here any longer.

Part of being a DIYer is getting knowledge. So as a DIYer, I can most certainly say that any knowledge I can absorb, I want. A lot of that comes from DIYers themselves, IE JohnK, Martin King, Dennis Murphy, Patrick Bateman among many many others.

But at the end of the day DIYers are restricted by the limits of DIY. If we can get knowledge from professionals, it's most certainly appreciated. This is a fantastic looking build for example. If not for the contributions of pros / semiprofessionals, this sweet looking narrow directivity speaker keyser has designed, would literally be an MTMWW 3-way with crossovers at 350hz and 4khz. Yourself, along with Tom Danley, Floyd Toole, Wayne Parham, etc are most certainly always welcome at DIY forums. Otherwise this would be TTDIY "Try to do it yourself" not DIY.

Although even if that were teh case, guys do and would still continue make an effort to rip off as many patents as we possibly can

 

[RockLeeEV]

Keyser,

Have you done the damping mod to the D220Ti? A friend of mine (zog666) has some interesting and measurable results:

IMG_2616

col.

A damping mod I would like to try doing to metal drivers, is aquaplas.

 

[keyser]

Earl has uploaded the data for my speaker: Polar_map