also Italian and American school:
Spectral and Norma have patterns almost identical to Goldmund, indeed, better and even higher technical performances.
Goldmund, Norma and Spectral come from the Hitachi book!
Dartzeel is not a speed monster, far from it, and it's quite limited in band
but do not listen to what you read of reviews and similar stuff, rather look at the scheme
Why would I mesure it?
When the creator of the clone himself gave, supposedly, the best possible measurements for his product (except if you think he wants his sales to dive and instead of truthfully reporting 1MHz bandwidth, as that is what you are insinuating, he intentionally reported only 20kHz?! It makes no sense)
When the creator of the clone himself gave, supposedly, the best possible measurements for his product (except if you think he wants his sales to dive and instead of truthfully reporting 1MHz bandwidth, as that is what you are insinuating, he intentionally reported only 20kHz?! It makes no sense)
Yes, 1MHz is far away from 3MHz
But those Telos 1000 and 600 monos are not high in demand. There is a sweetness that after a while becomes irritating.
Now these clones, we do not whether it is typo in the specifications (of the marketing inexperienced clone maker e.g. 0.014dB at 20kHz: could he not report the fluctuation at 800kHz for example, even if it is 6dB), or he really cut off anything above 20kHz (as one buyer on a forum said for Chinese clone: "it is better than my old Marantz". Wow, I expected much higher praises for dartZeel clones)
But those Telos 1000 and 600 monos are not high in demand. There is a sweetness that after a while becomes irritating.
Now these clones, we do not whether it is typo in the specifications (of the marketing inexperienced clone maker e.g. 0.014dB at 20kHz: could he not report the fluctuation at 800kHz for example, even if it is 6dB), or he really cut off anything above 20kHz (as one buyer on a forum said for Chinese clone: "it is better than my old Marantz". Wow, I expected much higher praises for dartZeel clones)
What is this about? The 108?
I have not seen a 1MHz bandwidth stated, neither in the specs and certainly not in the Stereophile measurements. Or is is about another amp?
The Chinese clone spec for full bandwidth is simply missing
"Freq. Response: +- 0.012dB @20Hz ~ 20 KHz "
does not indicate where the -3db points are
Spurred by this pretty meaningless discussion i dragged my clone to the bench and measured -3db @around 400kHz. 7ohm load and just over 1W.
108
Clearly mentioned in the Stereophile report. I am too lazy to search now. JA did the measurements.
Clearly mentioned in the Stereophile report. I am too lazy to search now. JA did the measurements.
http://www.audioreference.co.nz/node/377/pdf
Specifications
Nominal output power:
Gain 26 dB @ 8 Ohms. Input impedances:
Version A: Version B:
Output impedance: Frequency response:
100 watts RMS @ 8 (Hi) and 2 (Lo)Ohms .
160 watts RMS @ 4 (Hi) and 1 (Lo) Ohms.
RCA: > 100 kOhms, 5 Hz to 200 kHz. BNC: 50 ±1 Ohms, 1 Hz to 1 MHz.
XLR: > 100 kOhms bet. Pin 1 and 2 (hot leg and ground)
XLR: > 13 kOhms bet. Pin 1 and 3 (cold leg and ground). 33 kOhms bet. Pin 1 and 2.
33 kOhms bet. Pin 1 and 3.
< 0.33 Ohms, from 20 Hz to 20 kHz (measured @ 8 Ohms).
1 Hz to 1 MHz, +0, -6 dB (depends on measurement method).
10 Hz to 100 kHz, +0, -0.5 dB (depends on measurement method).
20 Hz to 50 kHz, ±0.5 dB (Version B, XLR inputs).
Specifications
Nominal output power:
Gain 26 dB @ 8 Ohms. Input impedances:
Version A: Version B:
Output impedance: Frequency response:
100 watts RMS @ 8 (Hi) and 2 (Lo)Ohms .
160 watts RMS @ 4 (Hi) and 1 (Lo) Ohms.
RCA: > 100 kOhms, 5 Hz to 200 kHz. BNC: 50 ±1 Ohms, 1 Hz to 1 MHz.
XLR: > 100 kOhms bet. Pin 1 and 2 (hot leg and ground)
XLR: > 13 kOhms bet. Pin 1 and 3 (cold leg and ground). 33 kOhms bet. Pin 1 and 2.
33 kOhms bet. Pin 1 and 3.
< 0.33 Ohms, from 20 Hz to 20 kHz (measured @ 8 Ohms).
1 Hz to 1 MHz, +0, -6 dB (depends on measurement method).
10 Hz to 100 kHz, +0, -0.5 dB (depends on measurement method).
20 Hz to 50 kHz, ±0.5 dB (Version B, XLR inputs).
Rise time:
Slew rate:
DC voltage output drift:
Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): Temporal Distortion:
Crosstalk:
Signal to noise ratio: Consumption:
Size in mm: Net weight:
Link
< 0.8 μs.
88 V/ms, peak-peak.
Version A: < ±590 mV max. Version B : < ±10 mV max.
<1 % from 7 Hz to 77 kHz
None, at any level and load, as specified above.
<-90 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz. > 105 dB (A) @ nominal power.
150 watts @ idle, up to 1000 watts @ maximum output power. 18 x 14 x 7 (WxDxH). Total depth including handles: 17 in.
67 lbs.
Slew rate:
DC voltage output drift:
Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): Temporal Distortion:
Crosstalk:
Signal to noise ratio: Consumption:
Size in mm: Net weight:
Link
< 0.8 μs.
88 V/ms, peak-peak.
Version A: < ±590 mV max. Version B : < ±10 mV max.
<1 % from 7 Hz to 77 kHz
None, at any level and load, as specified above.
<-90 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz. > 105 dB (A) @ nominal power.
150 watts @ idle, up to 1000 watts @ maximum output power. 18 x 14 x 7 (WxDxH). Total depth including handles: 17 in.
67 lbs.
6moons audio reviews: darTZeel NHB-108 Model One
The NHB-108 is rated at 160 watts into four ohms; 100 watts into 8 or 2 ohms. The wide bandwidth design covers 1Hz to 1Mhz +0/-6dB with 1% THD and -- according to darTZeel most importantly -- zero temporal distortion
The NHB-108 is rated at 160 watts into four ohms; 100 watts into 8 or 2 ohms. The wide bandwidth design covers 1Hz to 1Mhz +0/-6dB with 1% THD and -- according to darTZeel most importantly -- zero temporal distortion
This is rich coming from someone who isn't lazy to copy-paste pages of unrelated spam
Interestingly the Stereophile review states a much more modest bandwidth among the specs.
The 1MHz claims mostly come from other sources: reviewers and dealers. Audioreference per example has a full set of specs published and here is what they say about the subject
"1 Hz to 1 MHz, +0, -6 dB (depends on measurement method). "
Which likely tallies up with my -3db measurement @0.4MHz
Why @-6db? Just to make it sound more impressive. The same reason they don't specify a level.
So, no, i don't think any reasonable clone is deficient in this particular area, or differs from the original.
Likely is not sufficient
Likely is not sufficient when we are plunging 1000s of dollars. The clone we are talking about costs $3200. 3000 my **** I say. I would rather pay $18000 for the original (if I really wanted it) than $3000 for this "clone". Why? Because these are totally different amplifiers.
As one owner of the clone said on a forum: "it is better than my old Marantz". Wow. Better than his old Marantz. That's the whole point of citing 6moons measurements.
Facts:
Deluxe version of the clone is totally different circuit diagram
Frequency range that the seller stands behind is 20Hz to 20kHz. In contrast, you can see that the original is 7Hz to 1MHz. 6moons published the whole curve, complete measurement across this bandwidth. You can measure something isolated, e.g. 400kHz, but the point is to measure linearity across the specified range. Let's see the curve. That's why I say that the clone is hoax
This is rich coming from someone who isn't lazy to copy-paste pages of unrelated spam
Interestingly the Stereophile review states a much more modest bandwidth among the specs.
The 1MHz claims mostly come from other sources: reviewers and dealers. Audioreference per example has a full set of specs published and here is what they say about the subject
"1 Hz to 1 MHz, +0, -6 dB (depends on measurement method). "
Which likely tallies up with my -3db measurement @0.4MHz
Why @-6db? Just to make it sound more impressive. The same reason they don't specify a level.
So, no, i don't think any reasonable clone is deficient in this particular area, or differs from the original.
Likely is not sufficient when we are plunging 1000s of dollars. The clone we are talking about costs $3200. 3000 my **** I say. I would rather pay $18000 for the original (if I really wanted it) than $3000 for this "clone". Why? Because these are totally different amplifiers.
As one owner of the clone said on a forum: "it is better than my old Marantz". Wow. Better than his old Marantz. That's the whole point of citing 6moons measurements.
Facts:
Deluxe version of the clone is totally different circuit diagram
Frequency range that the seller stands behind is 20Hz to 20kHz. In contrast, you can see that the original is 7Hz to 1MHz. 6moons published the whole curve, complete measurement across this bandwidth. You can measure something isolated, e.g. 400kHz, but the point is to measure linearity across the specified range. Let's see the curve. That's why I say that the clone is hoax
Where? Just surprised 6moons are now into measuring stuff
I have measured the entire frequency range and not some isolated point. No peaking anywhere. Ok, it is not a Chinese clone but i don't see how theirs would measure any different if following the same circuit and using genuine semis. Cannot post a curve as i lack the equipment for automatic curve drawing at frequencies above 150kHz and don't see much point doing it by hand. Next time i bring the amp to the bench will test up to 1MHz out of curiosity.
show your measurements
like 6moons did and others.
And if somebody else confirms the curve looks like the original and yes -6dB 1MHz, I'll jump in and buy immediately.
But if you read 6moons carefully, the whole point of the design is there is nothing in the signal path. no double pairs, single pairs at the output.
Then, per 6moons, the physical position of the inner parts so that it is the shortest path possible
And not 7Hz, my mistake. It is 1Hz:
The wide bandwidth design covers 1Hz to 1Mhz +0/-6dB with 1% THD and -- according to darTZeel most importantly -- zero temporal distortion.
Show me the above. There is a guy in Australia who got a fantastic idea to be a Little JA. He measures things. He measured SOtM etc. i.e. mid-fi so far. But he can measure, as a 3rd party independent authority, the above. He can publish the curve just like 6moons did
According to darTZeel, the elimination of Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) "...does not seem to be a determinate factor in the accuracy of reproduced sound." darTZeel postulates that designers who rely on sophisticated designs with tons of op amps, transistors and other electronics -- while at first seeming pure -- add their own electronic signature to detract from the purity of the recorded sound.
Therefore, no change from the original circuit. No tons of transistors etc.
This is what I think had happened. Cloners tried with the original circuit, but soon they discovered they cannot get the sound of the original.
Internally, close examination shows an amazing attention to detail but for this kind of money, that's expected.
It was a no-go for cloners. It was not just circuit, it was also everything else.
The final result? The clone sounds better than an old Marantz.
In the NHB-108 model one, the audio signal travels through only 6 transistors from input to output, maintaining low THD and IMD level.
total phase respect across the whole audio range without any static or dynamic deformation. In brief, no Temporal Distortion
The 108 circuit design is based on three criteria:
Simplicity
Purity
Reliability
Simplicity was followed by way of only 14 transistors. Fanatical attention to detail extends to internal component layout. Placement of every device relative to input circuits, power supplies, transformers and output devices reflects deliberation to minimize any deleterious effects on the sound. "The internal volume was exploited down to the last cubic centimetre. Output power devices are located less than 10 centimetres from the huge crescent-like bus bars. All the energy coming from the capacitor reservoir can then effortlessly flow to the output bipolar transistors."
What cloners did, they produced a mid-fi device for around $3200 made in China that they somehow connected to the dartZeel name because the chassis resembles it.
Looking at this price range, right now a brand new Audia Flight FL3S can be bought for $2300 (used to be $3900). Sounds splendid, much better than any Marantz. It will eat any dartzeel clone alive. If you do not believe me, upload some recordings of your clone onto Youtube. Here is a recording of much cheaper Audia Flight with some old Focals:
YouTube
Publish the same song with your clone so that we can hear the differences. Maybe your clone will win big time. Or it will lose, who knows.
Where? Just surprised 6moons are now into measuring stuff
I have measured the entire frequency range and not some isolated point. No peaking anywhere. Ok, it is not a Chinese clone but i don't see how theirs would measure any different if following the same circuit and using genuine semis. Cannot post a curve as i lack the equipment for automatic curve drawing at frequencies above 150kHz and don't see much point doing it by hand. Next time i bring the amp to the bench will test up to 1MHz out of curiosity.
like 6moons did and others.
And if somebody else confirms the curve looks like the original and yes -6dB 1MHz, I'll jump in and buy immediately.
But if you read 6moons carefully, the whole point of the design is there is nothing in the signal path. no double pairs, single pairs at the output.
Then, per 6moons, the physical position of the inner parts so that it is the shortest path possible
And not 7Hz, my mistake. It is 1Hz:
The wide bandwidth design covers 1Hz to 1Mhz +0/-6dB with 1% THD and -- according to darTZeel most importantly -- zero temporal distortion.
Show me the above. There is a guy in Australia who got a fantastic idea to be a Little JA. He measures things. He measured SOtM etc. i.e. mid-fi so far. But he can measure, as a 3rd party independent authority, the above. He can publish the curve just like 6moons did
According to darTZeel, the elimination of Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) "...does not seem to be a determinate factor in the accuracy of reproduced sound." darTZeel postulates that designers who rely on sophisticated designs with tons of op amps, transistors and other electronics -- while at first seeming pure -- add their own electronic signature to detract from the purity of the recorded sound.
Therefore, no change from the original circuit. No tons of transistors etc.
This is what I think had happened. Cloners tried with the original circuit, but soon they discovered they cannot get the sound of the original.
Internally, close examination shows an amazing attention to detail but for this kind of money, that's expected.
It was a no-go for cloners. It was not just circuit, it was also everything else.
The final result? The clone sounds better than an old Marantz.
In the NHB-108 model one, the audio signal travels through only 6 transistors from input to output, maintaining low THD and IMD level.
total phase respect across the whole audio range without any static or dynamic deformation. In brief, no Temporal Distortion
The 108 circuit design is based on three criteria:
Simplicity
Purity
Reliability
Simplicity was followed by way of only 14 transistors. Fanatical attention to detail extends to internal component layout. Placement of every device relative to input circuits, power supplies, transformers and output devices reflects deliberation to minimize any deleterious effects on the sound. "The internal volume was exploited down to the last cubic centimetre. Output power devices are located less than 10 centimetres from the huge crescent-like bus bars. All the energy coming from the capacitor reservoir can then effortlessly flow to the output bipolar transistors."
What cloners did, they produced a mid-fi device for around $3200 made in China that they somehow connected to the dartZeel name because the chassis resembles it.
Looking at this price range, right now a brand new Audia Flight FL3S can be bought for $2300 (used to be $3900). Sounds splendid, much better than any Marantz. It will eat any dartzeel clone alive. If you do not believe me, upload some recordings of your clone onto Youtube. Here is a recording of much cheaper Audia Flight with some old Focals:
YouTube
Publish the same song with your clone so that we can hear the differences. Maybe your clone will win big time. Or it will lose, who knows.
Excellent comments. I totally agree. There are so many variables to match to get the same performance.
clearlyThis is rich coming from someone who isn't lazy to copy-paste pages of unrelated spam
Interestingly the Stereophile review states a much more modest bandwidth among the specs.
The 1MHz claims mostly come from other sources: reviewers and dealers. Audioreference per example has a full set of specs published and here is what they say about the subject
"1 Hz to 1 MHz, +0, -6 dB (depends on measurement method). "
Which likely tallies up with my -3db measurement @0.4MHz
Why @-6db? Just to make it sound more impressive. The same reason they don't specify a level.
So, no, i don't think any reasonable clone is deficient in this particular area, or differs from the original.
in hiend everyone can say everything and the opposite of everything, we don't talk about engines or mathematics
However, a circuit like the Dartzeel 108 has many positive aspects, but not certain speed, bandwidth and dynamics
The 108 is bought or cloned for other reasons
If we look for dynamics, band, speed, low range and articulation, the 108 and related clones have to be set aside
Please provide a link to the 6moons or stereophile measurements of the 1MHz bandwidth. A pic of that "curve" would also be great
There are so much fillers in your posts i think i'm gonna skip supper
I reluctantly agree
. Dynamics and bass are not its forte, but then how many amps that you know combine all the goodies successfully? It is always a question of compromise. Have lived long term with several "superamps": Jeff Rowlands, Krells, MLs. Each of them excelled in some ares and failed miserably in others.For my taste the 108 offers a pretty sweet combination of qualities, especially for what it takes to build. It's weakest side is working into low impedance. Perhaps multiple parallel outputs alleviate this to some degree.
you got the link above
but you have to go to the school first so that you can learn how to open the hyperlink. There are free courses, try khanacademy
Please provide a link to the 6moons or stereophile measurements of the 1MHz bandwidth. A pic of that "curve" would also be great
There are so much fillers in your posts i think i'm gonna skip supper
but you have to go to the school first so that you can learn how to open the hyperlink. There are free courses, try khanacademy
wow
you should probably replace J. Atkinson at Stereophile and Ebaen at 6moons and open your own magazine and testing/reviewing center (but first learn how to open a hyperlink by clicking on it in your browser).
I reluctantly agree
For my taste the 108 offers a pretty sweet combination of qualities, especially for what it takes to build. It's weakest side is working into low impedance. Perhaps multiple parallel outputs alleviate this to some degree.
you should probably replace J. Atkinson at Stereophile and Ebaen at 6moons and open your own magazine and testing/reviewing center (but first learn how to open a hyperlink by clicking on it in your browser).