Separated enclosure VS one piece enclosure
Time to put together some plan.
I have two option (as you can see the pictures) the two woofer in separate enclosure the mid and tweeter on the top in a smaller enclosure
Advantage - easier to move it around (may be sound better because the mid and tweeter separated from the bass resonation)
Disadvantage - much more work extra two enclosure
Does it worth the extra work (will improve the sound that much the separation)
Please let me know your opinion
If I can get the 8x4 feet Baltic birch I can leave it 4 feet tall if the 4 speaker get one enclosure (less cut)
If worth to be separated the 4 feet only for the two woofer out of the sheet of Baltic will be too tall (plus the small enclosure on the top)
I want to order some Baltic birch outside from Toronto, if they deliver it better to be cut into size easier to carry or move it around.
Also if they cut it more cut more possibility for error when more cuts needed especially if I can not be there when they cut it........
I do not own a table saw only a Milwaukee battery powered small saw.
Thanks for the advise
Time to put together some plan.
I have two option (as you can see the pictures) the two woofer in separate enclosure the mid and tweeter on the top in a smaller enclosure
Advantage - easier to move it around (may be sound better because the mid and tweeter separated from the bass resonation)
Disadvantage - much more work extra two enclosure
Does it worth the extra work (will improve the sound that much the separation)
Please let me know your opinion
If I can get the 8x4 feet Baltic birch I can leave it 4 feet tall if the 4 speaker get one enclosure (less cut)
If worth to be separated the 4 feet only for the two woofer out of the sheet of Baltic will be too tall (plus the small enclosure on the top)
I want to order some Baltic birch outside from Toronto, if they deliver it better to be cut into size easier to carry or move it around.
Also if they cut it more cut more possibility for error when more cuts needed especially if I can not be there when they cut it........
I do not own a table saw only a Milwaukee battery powered small saw.
Thanks for the advise
Attachments
That is the factory tune advise to these Alcone woofer. 65L tuned to 28Hz (F-3DB)
I have to tune it around 30Hz to match Hi -Vi F10 woofer as close as possible. Unfortunately the Hi-Vi woofer a bit weaker than the Alcone. Unfortunately I'm no longer able to use the (my favorite) simulator I used to use. That was so special when I increased the volume box eve 1 or 2 litre I could see the fine effect on the curve. I can not find a sim. which work similar like that. I must tune these 2 woofer together as close as possible.
So I will go with 2 woofer per side, still not sure how I power the two separate or from the same amp. First I build the enclosure.
After I will try to get the best option to drive them. If I drive each woofer separate I must use exact the same amplifier on both driver otherwise will act as a subwoofer, sometimes to much bass some times to little. You know what a mean. If I connect the two woofer together with one crossover I get 3.4 or 3.6R DC witch roughly 4 Ohms AC. I still I use my 8 Ohm Gorlich mids and 8Ohm tweeter. So on the end I end up with a 4R speakers (not all amplifier happy with that) What can I do one 10" woofer (what I own) does not produce satisfactory bass. The Alcone anodised alu cone with the Hi-Vi Kevlar paper composite it produce a pleasant sound character. Not clinical or harsh. I tested the 2 Alcone together or the two Hi-Vi and the best option to use 1+1 per side. Even if I would own one more pair Alcone I would go with the 1+1 woofers.
It would be great if I could tune both woofer 30Hz or so( Hi-Vi advise 33Hz and Alcone 28Hz) Alcone tuned to 30 or 31Hz still nice. Now I can play with the mentioned simulator to try to bring out the best compromise from both woofer,
I collected some material for the enclosure but I must wait until spring so I can start to work on it. My friend will let me use his backyard (I live in apartment) for exchange some work around the or inside the house. If you guys can help me one more time with the simulation so I can match the two woofer best as possible. Again the Alcon will get 65L BR and the Hi-Vi F10 60L BR. If I remember well not possible to increase the size of the enclosure for the Hi-Vi To get 28 or 30Hz -3DB like the Alcone.
I did red both thread over and over again. I want to say from the bottom of my heath thank you for all al of you who helped me!! Thank you and thank you!! Yes sometimes I got to exited and I was not kind or polite enough, I want to apologise for that!
Gorlich Podzust question
It is been a while since I posted here. (Was sick, etc)
It is time for this project materialize, but before I build the enclosure I will have to clear some facts about the Gorlich Podzust driver I want to use for this build.
The first question
Does this driver provide enough midrange from 200 or 250Hz upward?
Still not sure crossing point I will pick.
Please see the attachment for the datasheet about the Gorlich drivers!
To be honest I really don't know which one is it out of the two (marked with red)
The second question
Even do the driver has 70 or 75 Hz I am not sure if I can cross it as low as (between) 200 & 300Hz?
There is some notice in the German language that I do not understand.
Why this is important?
Once I build the enclosure for a 5" driver very likely I can not use a larger 6.5" driver.
I see with the 2x10" Woofer people use a 6.5" mid-woofer, I don't know the actual driver size if it matters?
I want to mount the tweeter as close as possible to the midrange.
Also if the 200Hz crossing point to low for this driver I have to use something else.
I would love to use this because of the sound quality but I can not compromise or used it in a frequency where the driver distorts or suffer.
Can someone please take a look and advise me. Wery likely I will build an enclosure similar to this but keep the drivers in the center.
Please remember I will use one Alcone woofer and one HI-VI per enclosure (separated from each other) to avoid the (too much) metallic sound.
I tested (not in the enclosure, only on the carpet floor) the two Alcone and one Hi-VI and Alcone and I prefer the second option.
Yes I like aluminum cone drivers a lot (I use a Visaton AL130 driver for every day listening)
One of my favorite driver series the Visaton AL!!
Thank you for your reply and advice!
It is been a while since I posted here. (Was sick, etc)
It is time for this project materialize, but before I build the enclosure I will have to clear some facts about the Gorlich Podzust driver I want to use for this build.
The first question
Does this driver provide enough midrange from 200 or 250Hz upward?
Still not sure crossing point I will pick.
Please see the attachment for the datasheet about the Gorlich drivers!
To be honest I really don't know which one is it out of the two (marked with red)
The second question
Even do the driver has 70 or 75 Hz I am not sure if I can cross it as low as (between) 200 & 300Hz?
There is some notice in the German language that I do not understand.
Why this is important?
Once I build the enclosure for a 5" driver very likely I can not use a larger 6.5" driver.
I see with the 2x10" Woofer people use a 6.5" mid-woofer, I don't know the actual driver size if it matters?
I want to mount the tweeter as close as possible to the midrange.
Also if the 200Hz crossing point to low for this driver I have to use something else.
I would love to use this because of the sound quality but I can not compromise or used it in a frequency where the driver distorts or suffer.
Can someone please take a look and advise me. Wery likely I will build an enclosure similar to this but keep the drivers in the center.
Please remember I will use one Alcone woofer and one HI-VI per enclosure (separated from each other) to avoid the (too much) metallic sound.
I tested (not in the enclosure, only on the carpet floor) the two Alcone and one Hi-VI and Alcone and I prefer the second option.
Yes I like aluminum cone drivers a lot (I use a Visaton AL130 driver for every day listening)
One of my favorite driver series the Visaton AL!!
Thank you for your reply and advice!
Attachments
Last edited:
The abbreviation 'VK' (= "Voll-Konus") refers to the fact that the diaphragm consists of a single conical piece of the membrane material - so there is no dustcap. This design makes it difficult to center the vibrating unit (diaphragm, voice coil, etc.) in the air gap of the magnetic circuit, and as a result such drivers are more expensive. But also they are said to perform better (not so sure whether this always turns out so clearly in measurments, though ...).
In any case these two types can be easily recognized by their different appearance (--> diaphragm).
The table doesn't give any info about voice coil length and height of the air gap. So one can only guess as to the SPL capabilities at the lower end of the operating range.
However, with great certainty both are usable (for HiFi usage) from at least 300 Hz upwards when built into an appropriate (closed) enclosure.
In any case these two types can be easily recognized by their different appearance (--> diaphragm).
The table doesn't give any info about voice coil length and height of the air gap. So one can only guess as to the SPL capabilities at the lower end of the operating range.
However, with great certainty both are usable (for HiFi usage) from at least 300 Hz upwards when built into an appropriate (closed) enclosure.
Thank you kceenav
Based on your explanation now I know which driver I own.
I will attach the picture of the driver.
So this can provide 92.5db that should be more than enough for the mentioned purpose.
I fell in love with Gorlich Pozsust about 25-28 years ago back in Europe.
One of my friends whenever he saw any Gorlich for sale in the country for an affordable price right away went after them.
Any time I visited him I did like to listen to those (his) speakers.
Of course, he used those his own DIY enclosures.
Yes, I will use them in a closed enclosure due to the driver's soft (cloth) surround.
I purchased these from Europe it cost me an arm and a leg with shipping to Canada.
Secretly I was hoping it will fit my purpose.
Another option would be Scan-Speak 18M/4631T00 or the Fostex FE168ES but I already have this Gorlich with their lovely sound and the other two mentioned drivers unknown for me not to talk about the extra price.
Thank you one more time, it is very important because I size the enclosure after this driver and if does not work out for some reason I can toss them into the garbage.
Unless I put together some type of text enclosure but that not as easy because I live in an apartment.
Greetings gabor
Based on your explanation now I know which driver I own.
I will attach the picture of the driver.
So this can provide 92.5db that should be more than enough for the mentioned purpose.
I fell in love with Gorlich Pozsust about 25-28 years ago back in Europe.
One of my friends whenever he saw any Gorlich for sale in the country for an affordable price right away went after them.
Any time I visited him I did like to listen to those (his) speakers.
Of course, he used those his own DIY enclosures.
Yes, I will use them in a closed enclosure due to the driver's soft (cloth) surround.
I purchased these from Europe it cost me an arm and a leg with shipping to Canada.
Secretly I was hoping it will fit my purpose.
Another option would be Scan-Speak 18M/4631T00 or the Fostex FE168ES but I already have this Gorlich with their lovely sound and the other two mentioned drivers unknown for me not to talk about the extra price.
Thank you one more time,
it is very important because I size the enclosure after this driver and if does not work out for some reason I can toss them into the garbage. Unless I put together some type of text enclosure but that not as easy because I live in an apartment.
Greetings gabor
Attachments
Just purchased some material for the enclosure.
5Pc 1" 48x27 size & 1Pc 3/4" 48x27 size (cost $100 with delivery)
That material should be enough for a pair of speakers (outside, will buy some material for braces, etc).
I will build a separate enclosure for the woofers and mids and tweeters.
Thank Inductor for the advice!
It is a Canadian red oak veneer on both sides A1 grade material 1-inch oak plywood for the woofers and 3/4 for the midbass drivers and tweeter.
I plan to purchase (if I can get) a pair of Audax MH130Z0 Aerogel cone mid-range to match it with the mentioned Gorlich Podzust midrange.
Their sensitivity and other parameters are very close of course I will separate them in the same enclosure.
In a short sentence, I will use two pairs of midrange drivers to match the impedance of the two woofers.
Also, I learned better to use two smaller sized midranges with lighter cone than one 6.5" or 7"driver.
I will use a Revelator soft dome tweeter (I own some ribbons) but prefer the soft dome over the middle-grade ribbons.
If the enclosure comes out nice I will stain and clear finish it if not will be painted.
So right now for this project, I have to hunt for a pair of the mentioned Audax midranges.
Of course not urgent.
5Pc 1" 48x27 size & 1Pc 3/4" 48x27 size (cost $100 with delivery)
That material should be enough for a pair of speakers (outside, will buy some material for braces, etc).
I will build a separate enclosure for the woofers and mids and tweeters.
Thank Inductor for the advice!
It is a Canadian red oak veneer on both sides A1 grade material 1-inch oak plywood for the woofers and 3/4 for the midbass drivers and tweeter.
I plan to purchase (if I can get) a pair of Audax MH130Z0 Aerogel cone mid-range to match it with the mentioned Gorlich Podzust midrange.
Their sensitivity and other parameters are very close of course I will separate them in the same enclosure.
In a short sentence, I will use two pairs of midrange drivers to match the impedance of the two woofers.
Also, I learned better to use two smaller sized midranges with lighter cone than one 6.5" or 7"driver.
I will use a Revelator soft dome tweeter (I own some ribbons) but prefer the soft dome over the middle-grade ribbons.
If the enclosure comes out nice I will stain and clear finish it if not will be painted.
So right now for this project, I have to hunt for a pair of the mentioned Audax midranges.
Of course not urgent.
Attachments
Audax MH130Z0 Aerogel
Hi
I'm still looking for a pair of Audax Aerogele Midrange drivers.
Wanted to Buy Audax MH130Z0 Aerogel
If anyone has a pair, please....
Thank you
Hi
I'm still looking for a pair of Audax Aerogele Midrange drivers.
Wanted to Buy Audax MH130Z0 Aerogel
If anyone has a pair, please....
Thank you
Yes, something like that.
The woofers should be in separate (divided) enclosures. Something similar like in the pictures. For an idea!!
The Alcone in 65L tuned to 28Hz
The HI-VI in 60L tuned to 30Hz
Both stunned with BR ports.
For the midrange, I would go with the Gorlich only IF that would provide enough midrange or couple it with the Aerogale, or go for a single pair Scan-Speak.
I read your comment somewhere (an old post) about the Aerogale and I got second thoughts about it.
I was also Looking at USA speakers at Beyma. I am a Beyma lover also.
For Tweeter, I have at home a pair Morel MDT-28 and a pair Aurum Cantus Ribbon G2Si one of those (latter I will upgrade it to) Scan-Speak Revelator if I am not satisfied with the one I have.
I am 51years old tweeters sound always was acceptable most of the time from a decent driver. As long as not too metallic as much it hurts or uncomfortable. Soft domes my favorite, mostly.
My plan to use this type of enclosure with separate woofers (separate mid drivers and tweeter see the picture).
Crossing points from 320Hz low point, 2560 high crossing point.
See the attachment.
The woofers should be in separate (divided) enclosures. Something similar like in the pictures. For an idea!!
The Alcone in 65L tuned to 28Hz
The HI-VI in 60L tuned to 30Hz
Both stunned with BR ports.
For the midrange, I would go with the Gorlich only IF that would provide enough midrange or couple it with the Aerogale, or go for a single pair Scan-Speak.
I read your comment somewhere (an old post) about the Aerogale and I got second thoughts about it.
I was also Looking at USA speakers at Beyma. I am a Beyma lover also.
For Tweeter, I have at home a pair Morel MDT-28 and a pair Aurum Cantus Ribbon G2Si one of those (latter I will upgrade it to) Scan-Speak Revelator if I am not satisfied with the one I have.
I am 51years old tweeters sound always was acceptable most of the time from a decent driver. As long as not too metallic as much it hurts or uncomfortable. Soft domes my favorite, mostly.
My plan to use this type of enclosure with separate woofers (separate mid drivers and tweeter see the picture).
Crossing points from 320Hz low point, 2560 high crossing point.
See the attachment.
Attachments
Last edited:
I forget the Morel picture.
I got brand new domes in the box (original) I will have to replace them.
It has a pleasant sound.
Forget to mention if the Visaton AL130M midrange would be a bit more sensitive I would buy a pair to couple it with the Gorlich.
I use their brother AL130 in bookshelf speakers and I love it a lot.
I got brand new domes in the box (original) I will have to replace them.
It has a pleasant sound.
Forget to mention if the Visaton AL130M midrange would be a bit more sensitive I would buy a pair to couple it with the Gorlich.
I use their brother AL130 in bookshelf speakers and I love it a lot.
Attachments
Last edited:
Morel make solid tweeters.
Above you mention wanting to mix the Alcone with the Hi-Vi to reduce the 'metal' sound of the Alcone. Well if you cross over at 300Hz then nothing that would identify the driver as being metal would get through. Both a 2nd order and 4th order at 300Hz would provide plenty of attenuation of any artefacts you'd wish to eliminate.
As to one or two bass drivers per side? There's no reason to need two unless you need the extra SPL that two will reach vs just one. Although there are potential benefits to having two for other reasons. With two one driver is close to the midrange and the other close to the floor. As such you get the benefits of floor loading on the bottom driver and then tighter integration with the midrange from the top driver.
You cannot assess drivers in isolation though. You can only assess them in systems when they are used correctly. As you have noticed the Alcone sounds a certain way when you've auditioned it alone. It isn't meant to be used like this and certainly wont sound that way with a 300Hz low pass in place. Metal cone drivers need steep crossovers to work correctly. Most of the time they need 4th order acoustic slopes. You'll be able to get away with a 2nd order on the Alcone, if you want, because the 300Hz crossover is so far away from it's main breakup, which is at 4kHz.
The Alcone appears to give around 30Hz extension in a ported cabinet which is about as deep as I'd expect any bass unit to go unless it's a sub.
I don't see any problem with a speaker using...
1x Gorlich 130/25
2x Alcone (or two Hi-Vi for that matter)
1x Morel tweeter.
My main concern would be the sensitivity of the tweeter.
Two bass drivers are going to give you around 95dB wired in parallel. With one near the floor I'd imagine you'd end up with about 92dB net sensitivity after baffle step losses. This matches the Gorlich reasonably well and with a crossover at ~300Hz you can compensate for the baffle step effects on the mid with it's high pass alone.
This leaves the tweeter, which I'd guess is 89-90dB.
If you use one woofer, mounted below the midrange (and off the floor), you're looking at a speaker that will have a sensitivity of around 85/86dB in the bass. This will match the tweeter without any problems, but you'll need to attenuate the mid a considerable amount. Obviously you'll need to attenuate the tweeter.
You have no need to use two (and different) midrange drivers. Decide what bass drivers/configuration you want to go with and build something. If you're going modular with the boxes then you can easily change bits of the design later if you want to.
By the way don't store drivers on their side store them upright. If they are on their side they can start sagging over time.
If I were you I'd just build something with what you've already got. You have enough drivers to make an excellent three way. Really the crossover is going to be the hard part, not agonising over what drivers to use.
Above you mention wanting to mix the Alcone with the Hi-Vi to reduce the 'metal' sound of the Alcone. Well if you cross over at 300Hz then nothing that would identify the driver as being metal would get through. Both a 2nd order and 4th order at 300Hz would provide plenty of attenuation of any artefacts you'd wish to eliminate.
As to one or two bass drivers per side? There's no reason to need two unless you need the extra SPL that two will reach vs just one. Although there are potential benefits to having two for other reasons. With two one driver is close to the midrange and the other close to the floor. As such you get the benefits of floor loading on the bottom driver and then tighter integration with the midrange from the top driver.
You cannot assess drivers in isolation though. You can only assess them in systems when they are used correctly. As you have noticed the Alcone sounds a certain way when you've auditioned it alone. It isn't meant to be used like this and certainly wont sound that way with a 300Hz low pass in place. Metal cone drivers need steep crossovers to work correctly. Most of the time they need 4th order acoustic slopes. You'll be able to get away with a 2nd order on the Alcone, if you want, because the 300Hz crossover is so far away from it's main breakup, which is at 4kHz.
The Alcone appears to give around 30Hz extension in a ported cabinet which is about as deep as I'd expect any bass unit to go unless it's a sub.
I don't see any problem with a speaker using...
1x Gorlich 130/25
2x Alcone (or two Hi-Vi for that matter)
1x Morel tweeter.
My main concern would be the sensitivity of the tweeter.
Two bass drivers are going to give you around 95dB wired in parallel. With one near the floor I'd imagine you'd end up with about 92dB net sensitivity after baffle step losses. This matches the Gorlich reasonably well and with a crossover at ~300Hz you can compensate for the baffle step effects on the mid with it's high pass alone.
This leaves the tweeter, which I'd guess is 89-90dB.
If you use one woofer, mounted below the midrange (and off the floor), you're looking at a speaker that will have a sensitivity of around 85/86dB in the bass. This will match the tweeter without any problems, but you'll need to attenuate the mid a considerable amount. Obviously you'll need to attenuate the tweeter.
You have no need to use two (and different) midrange drivers. Decide what bass drivers/configuration you want to go with and build something. If you're going modular with the boxes then you can easily change bits of the design later if you want to.
By the way don't store drivers on their side store them upright. If they are on their side they can start sagging over time.
If I were you I'd just build something with what you've already got. You have enough drivers to make an excellent three way. Really the crossover is going to be the hard part, not agonising over what drivers to use.
Thank you very much for your advice! Really appreciated.
I store the drivers with the magnets up in their box always.
I hope that does not damage them.
I never had a problem because of that.
I saw the driver got damaged because was stored with the magnet at the bottom from the weight of the polypropylene cone.
They do have the factory styrofoam and gives some support under the rubber surround (from the original packaging).
When I received the Alcone drivers from Europe I did some extensive free-air listening tests with 2 Alcone's, 2 Hi-Vi's, and one of each, and I prefer the third option.
I am not totally against the aluminum cone drivers (sound) only if it too much (too metallic, makes me tired, annoying, etc) last 15 years I mostly listening to Visaton AL130 DIY speakers.
Of course, that can change when they are mounted in their enclosure but based on my previous experience not very likely.
I have 4Pc HI-VI drives and 2Pc matched Alcones ordered from Germany.
I really do not want to choose a lower crossing point because of the size and cost of the capacitors etc.
It will be thoroughly tested if there are any benefits to higher or lower crossing points.
I will re-read your post later again, at the moment I am too tired to capture all.
Thank you one more time.
Magnets up or magnets down it's the same thing. The weight of the cone will always be acting, under gravity, in one direction or another. Proper packaging for a driver shouldn't touch the cone/surround *at all* otherwise it will push it in. You store the drivers in their boxes in the same orientation they will be used in a speaker, vertically, so no sag, either in, or out, can happen.
Free air tests mean absolutely nothing.
Tests without a proper crossover in place mean absolutely nothing.
Free air tests mean absolutely nothing.
Tests without a proper crossover in place mean absolutely nothing.
I will post some pictures it will be easier to understand than to explain with my broken English.
The rubber surround has "some" support from the styrofoam when stored magnets up from the original "factory" packaging. Better than nothing or store it in sideways unless I rotate them often side to side.
I am aware of what you say!
My friend in Budapest rebuild drivers, voice coils, reform, etc.
He always advised rotating the driver even in the enclosure once or twice a year because of the gravity. I will take a look tomorrow and will post some pictures.
Free air tests on different drivers under the same circumstances will give some idea.
Yes, it is NOT a bulletproof result. I AGREE with you!
I built many speakers mostly two ways or 2.5 ways (some even for sale to my friends) not something complex 3 way with multiple drivers like this.
I live in an apartment, so my (woodworking) option is limited.
I will have to use my friend's backyard when the weather cooperates. Because of that, I want to get as much advice as possible to avoid the endless procedure of build and re-build, etc.
I used some crossover pars at testing but not a complex or final crossover so I did not mention for that reason.
One 10" woofer is not enough (I do not want to use a subwoofer. Tested in an enclosure. The reason I go with two.
Those Alcone speakers are built and tested. One can be ordered as a kit from Germany. All Alcone drives.
Alcone Lautsprecherbausätze: Cauchy 2
Another built by a DIY member (friend) from Belgium.
More sophisticated with top quality midrange and tweeters.
My RefSpeaker
They both use 2 pair bass.
Greetings
Data from the Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeter
Aurum Cantus G2Si Ribbon Tweeters | Hifi Collective
Aurum Cantus G2Si Ribbon Tweeters | Hifi Collective
I promised I will check the drivers, yes they were stored for a couple of years at the same place without ever moved.
I did check them and I do not see any visual damage or deformation, etc. They are in a good condition.
Yes, the packaging supports the rubber surround while the speaker's frame sits on the packaging at both speakers while the rubber (surround) supported also.
The HI-VI (YELLOW CONE) and the Alcone silver.
The Alcone I rotated with the magnet opposite side how it was stored until now.
I will attach some pictures.
A couple of more mounts more, the latest in springtime, I will put together this project together.
Right now it is too cold to work outside or to use wood glue etc.
I want to be free to build no to be bothered by the weather, cold, etc. Unfortunately, I can NOT do it in the apartment where I live.
I also tested the Gorlich Podzust drivers because someone in the US sells the mentioned Audax drivers NIB but it just too expensive with the shipping and import duty. I wanted to be sure.......as much as possible.
The sound is excellent (lovely) and much louder than the 4" titanium cone 89db full-range Tang-Band. I do not think I will need a second driver to get enough midrange.
Thanks one more time for your advice!
Attachments
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.