I afraid you right with these statement.
Still I'll try to do my best to get the woofer enclosure as close as possible to the company advise.
To me hard to put all on the paper (what I think or know because ESL) Even do I live in Toronto Canada, I spend most of my time at home (alone) since I became a disabled person.
I had a accident with a car, was riding a bicycle.
I think you can easily spot it out my English need some improvement.
Back to the speaker, I do have problem with that Alcone woofer, I do not hide that all do several people like it.
If I hook up with out the enclosure just on the floor with a 4 or 6 or 8 mH coil I really would love to get much more punch more low end.
The Hi-Vi has more punch but not my cup of tea.
I'll reduce the enclosure volume for a final test..
In case the 10" woofer does not deliver I will try to save these enclosure, is a well built double walled cabinet.
I do not give up these project , may be I'll build another enclosure and I double up the Alcone woofer if I do not find better solution.
Or as a finnal solution I do have 16" old alnico JBL what I like very much (I do not find the T-S parameters) I use it as a woofer
Greetings Gabor
Soon I reduce the size of the enclosure (when the weather warm up a bit so I can stay outside, to work on it) I keep thinking on backup solution to
That JBL probably will be one
It is very loud, will match the 92db Gorlich Podzust mids .
It has the bass even in free air what I'm looking for, it gave me as much bass if I place the driver to the corner like the Alcone from the enclosure
The sound quality good enough.
Before I thought I'll sell these JBL woofers or the whole speakers but now I hold on for a while
If someone has the JBL T/S parameters that would help a lot...
Or other option double the Alcone like these guy did. In that case I would end up 4 Ohms speakers
These option need more investment not just for the enclosure but the 2PC extra driver to.
For the second option I have to wait until the guy exchange his enclosure, he plan to increase the size from 75L to 110L..
On the end I will bring these together
When I seat done to listen music and the bass is missing or shy I can't enjoy that system.
I do not want subwoofer to get the bass I would like.
All these above right now as a option or back up plan only!!!
Greetings
That JBL probably will be one
It is very loud, will match the 92db Gorlich Podzust mids .
It has the bass even in free air what I'm looking for, it gave me as much bass if I place the driver to the corner like the Alcone from the enclosure
The sound quality good enough.
Before I thought I'll sell these JBL woofers or the whole speakers but now I hold on for a while
If someone has the JBL T/S parameters that would help a lot...
Or other option double the Alcone like these guy did. In that case I would end up 4 Ohms speakers
These option need more investment not just for the enclosure but the 2PC extra driver to.
For the second option I have to wait until the guy exchange his enclosure, he plan to increase the size from 75L to 110L..
On the end I will bring these together
When I seat done to listen music and the bass is missing or shy I can't enjoy that system.
I do not want subwoofer to get the bass I would like.
All these above right now as a option or back up plan only!!!
Greetings
Attachments
I am terribly sorry to hear about your medical condition dear friend.
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thiele small parameters/theile parameters.pdf
(note: VAS in L)
Quick & Dirty 4430-Inspired Two-Ways Part II - Page 28
As sreten said your "engineering" procedures are not my cup of tea, or maybe is just my own (NPI). I prefer to... dance, but if you need my help in the future just ask. Regards and have some fun.
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thiele small parameters/theile parameters.pdf
(note: VAS in L)
Quick & Dirty 4430-Inspired Two-Ways Part II - Page 28
I'm also sorry to hear about your thoughts and doubts about SB Acoustics.
As sreten said your "engineering" procedures are not my cup of tea, or maybe is just my own (NPI). I prefer to... dance, but if you need my help in the future just ask. Regards and have some fun.
Thank you inductor for the info on JBL!
Based on the data the JBL not bad at all, I do keep them until I finish these project.
I may need them on the end.
I hope you do not leave these thread for forever. I got so much help and precious information I would miss all those.
Also I would miss you as a friend.
Yes my procedures slow now, I live in a apartment 8th level. I can't start bang or do other stuff like use power tools , I must do those outside.
Otherwise they will kick me out from the apartment.
In these building sometimes typing on my laptop or watching TV in normal level it is a problem..
Now in Toronto now it is very-very cold, so I have to wait unfortunately.
I need several weeks until I can take the enclosure out to work on.
About the SB drivers (woofers) they told me if I do not want headache better to stay away from them.
I was so interested on the 10" woofer........
Greetings G
Based on the data the JBL not bad at all, I do keep them until I finish these project.
I may need them on the end.
I hope you do not leave these thread for forever. I got so much help and precious information I would miss all those.
Also I would miss you as a friend.
Yes my procedures slow now, I live in a apartment 8th level. I can't start bang or do other stuff like use power tools , I must do those outside.
Otherwise they will kick me out from the apartment.
In these building sometimes typing on my laptop or watching TV in normal level it is a problem..
Now in Toronto now it is very-very cold, so I have to wait unfortunately.
I need several weeks until I can take the enclosure out to work on.
About the SB drivers (woofers) they told me if I do not want headache better to stay away from them.
I was so interested on the 10" woofer........
Greetings G
gabor,
IME and IMO, woofers that sounds great to me usually high in qms (>6), low qes (6mm), low Le (<1mH) and Mms not more than 7-8cm2/gr.
pro drivers suits my taste, scan revelator also suitable but its $$$
When I purchase a woofer at the data I pay att. to
QTS to be at least 32 but better if 35 or up (at 10" size woofer) for BR enclosure
When QTS to low like 30 or less need special enclosure like BRH etc..
FS not to be to high max.. 28 or lower
Mms around 50gr
Motor BL at least 10 or more
Yes Le around 1mH..
Was not to be to high, some 10" woofer has 200-300
All these parameters are important but alone these does not guaranty 100% good or great deep bass
Of course in a decent enclosure.
Top of that many company cheat on the parameters, or hide behind in the the "break in time"
Look at these Hi-Vi F10 what also own
Not to bad based on the data still the low end not my cup of tea (soft and rounded)
Spécifications :
Impédance Nominale : 8Ω
Fréquence de Résonance : 28Hz
Tenue en Puissance Nominale : 100W
Tenue en Puissance Maximale : 200W
Sensibilité (2.83v/1m) : 89dB
Résistance DC : 6.5Ω
Diamètre Bobine : 50mm
Longueur Bobine : 22mm
Type de Support Bobine : Kapton
Composition Circuit Magnétique : Ferrite
Blindage Magnétique : Oui
BL : 16.2
He : 10mm
XmaX : 6.0mm
Cms : 420.2
Qms : 5.12
Qes : 0.33
Qts : 0.31
Mms : 72.16g
Sd : 0.0363m2
Vas : 78.6L
Type de Charge Recommandée : Bass Reflex
Volume de Charge Recommandé : 60L
Fréquences de Coupure Recommandées -3dB : 33Hz
Poids : 4.5Kg
Woofer - HiVi F10 Haut-Parleur de Grave Kevlar 10"
OK Mms is to much
If I'm right Qms and Qes together give the Qts
So you think Qms to be around 6 or so? I used to pay att. to the Qts only how I mentioned..
Thanks
Greetings G
Out of curiosity I run a simulation on the JBL LE 14A woofer I own
from 90L tuned to 33Hz F-3 not bad at all
With room gain that is nice.
Only problem I have with those JBL need new surround. The orig white looks very hard, not rotten just way too hard.
That can mess up the small parameters badly.
I can do it but it look like need a special surround.
I will see it, until that I do some listening , I'll compare it with the Alcone and Hi-Vi
Cheers
from 90L tuned to 33Hz F-3 not bad at all
With room gain that is nice.
Only problem I have with those JBL need new surround. The orig white looks very hard, not rotten just way too hard.
That can mess up the small parameters badly.
I can do it but it look like need a special surround.
I will see it, until that I do some listening , I'll compare it with the Alcone and Hi-Vi
Cheers
henry
For example here is a Focal 10L6411 woofer which used in a very expensive Hales Alexadra
Nominal power handling 150w
Program power handling 200w
Ohm: 6
Xmax: 8mm
Fs: 22.41
Re: 5.16
Qms: 9.03
Qes: 0.26
Qts: 0.26
Vas: 210.38
Mms: 42.66
SPL: 91.4
BL: 10.84
L: 1.2
I can get these less than 150 a pair (NOS) plus shipping
Has low Mms, very high Qms but the total Qts still a bit on the low side
Was also very high
Would you use these woofers in your system?
Hales use 2 pair but I do not have info from the enclosure size.
Greetings
For example here is a Focal 10L6411 woofer which used in a very expensive Hales Alexadra
Nominal power handling 150w
Program power handling 200w
Ohm: 6
Xmax: 8mm
Fs: 22.41
Re: 5.16
Qms: 9.03
Qes: 0.26
Qts: 0.26
Vas: 210.38
Mms: 42.66
SPL: 91.4
BL: 10.84
L: 1.2
I can get these less than 150 a pair (NOS) plus shipping
Has low Mms, very high Qms but the total Qts still a bit on the low side
Was also very high
Would you use these woofers in your system?
Hales use 2 pair but I do not have info from the enclosure size.
Greetings
re:"About the SB drivers (woofers) they told me if I do not want headache better to stay away from them" - for what reason? SB has a good reputation.
The AC10HE driver sims OK in 75L, if you want more slam, tune the box higher (but not too high otherwise you'll get a huge peak).
What's the sensitivity of your mid drivers? It may be that they're masking the woofers if they have a higher sensitivity than the AC10HEs...???
The AC10HE driver sims OK in 75L, if you want more slam, tune the box higher (but not too high otherwise you'll get a huge peak).
What's the sensitivity of your mid drivers? It may be that they're masking the woofers if they have a higher sensitivity than the AC10HEs...???
Gabor,
That was my question #5 from post #44, about the "mysterious" main speakers that you didn't answer...
(Taking something to heart or not) I don't know why but I couldn't find your answer. Or is it buried in the middle of those long extensions of your text of the next posts? I feel sorry for having to tell you that. Think a little about the extra effort of someone in the forum trying to help you?!
That was my question #5 from post #44, about the "mysterious" main speakers that you didn't answer...
(Taking something to heart or not) I don't know why but I couldn't find your answer. Or is it buried in the middle of those long extensions of your text of the next posts? I feel sorry for having to tell you that. Think a little about the extra effort of someone in the forum trying to help you?!
Hello Inductor
Sorry I just missed that question! My apology.
I have a pair Gorlich Pozust mids in a 6L enclosure and a pair Morel tweeter will be in a separate smallel 1-2L enclosure.
Those will be on the top of the woofer
Now that separated enclosures I don't know if I can call satellites probably yess.
Reason I chose to build these way
To separate the mids and tweeter from the bass resonance
To line up the drivers center point - woofer a bit forward etc.
The last reason
(from the beginning of these project I had the feeling and some of my friends wrote and told the same)
3 way speakers tend to give a lot of extra problem to DIY-ers compare to 2 ways
To me most of problem show up at the bass region,
Well controlled, precise deep bass must, NOT SUBWOOFER BASS!!
Many of my well expert friend never ever give a thought to build 3 way speakers,
Some of them built and build speakers for decades and sell them
To go back to the reasoning, last reason
these way I can replace the woofer enclosure if it need to, with out need to rebuild the whole speaker.
What do you think about that Focal drivers I posted the parameters a few post earlier?
Greetings Gabor
Sorry I just missed that question! My apology.
I have a pair Gorlich Pozust mids in a 6L enclosure and a pair Morel tweeter will be in a separate smallel 1-2L enclosure.
Those will be on the top of the woofer
Now that separated enclosures I don't know if I can call satellites probably yess.
Reason I chose to build these way
To separate the mids and tweeter from the bass resonance
To line up the drivers center point - woofer a bit forward etc.
The last reason
(from the beginning of these project I had the feeling and some of my friends wrote and told the same)
3 way speakers tend to give a lot of extra problem to DIY-ers compare to 2 ways
To me most of problem show up at the bass region,
Well controlled, precise deep bass must, NOT SUBWOOFER BASS!!
Many of my well expert friend never ever give a thought to build 3 way speakers,
Some of them built and build speakers for decades and sell them
To go back to the reasoning, last reason
these way I can replace the woofer enclosure if it need to, with out need to rebuild the whole speaker.
What do you think about that Focal drivers I posted the parameters a few post earlier?
Greetings Gabor
ALCONE AC 10 HE vs. FOCAL 10L6411
The Alcone it's superior if you intend to use it as specified in a sub enclosure. I'm not comparing other author's speakers and designs because I don't now the speakers nor the author's. Besides their skills might be very diverse from mine and I would only use a hard cone like alu as a last resource in a special purpose design taking advantage of it much less higher up in frequency.
After saying that, and you should be able to model your speakers (or subs) by now, what would make you save a lot of precious time (or months/years of doubts and unknowns) the Alcone is superior in bass used in a VB = 47.8 L (ideal) and up enclosure and the Focal is for a design much more different with much less LF extension and high sensitivity much more like what's used crossed with a passive for a 3-Way, maybe the Hales? you mention.
Other links on the subject of the Focal 10L6411 and Paul Hales
FS Focal 10L6411
Paul Hales: A Passion for Speakers | Stereophile.com
A similar driver design (Alum. vs. PolyKevlar ) to the FOCAL 10L6411 (30Hz@-7dB) is the FOCAL 10K6411 (30H@-8dB). Those diaphragms generally e.g., alum., Kevlar, glass fiber, carbon fiber are not my cup of tea as was stated before and you need to be careful using them.
18 Stupid Uses of Carbon Fiber
Picture for Focal 10L6411 here
The Alcone it's superior if you intend to use it as specified in a sub enclosure. I'm not comparing other author's speakers and designs because I don't now the speakers nor the author's. Besides their skills might be very diverse from mine and I would only use a hard cone like alu as a last resource in a special purpose design taking advantage of it much less higher up in frequency.
After saying that, and you should be able to model your speakers (or subs) by now, what would make you save a lot of precious time (or months/years of doubts and unknowns) the Alcone is superior in bass used in a VB = 47.8 L (ideal) and up enclosure and the Focal is for a design much more different with much less LF extension and high sensitivity much more like what's used crossed with a passive for a 3-Way, maybe the Hales? you mention.
I should mention also the info that QSC Audio also droped this driver and they have superior sets of speakers and amps so I don't doubt that there's something under their wing now but working better.
Other links on the subject of the Focal 10L6411 and Paul Hales
FS Focal 10L6411
Paul Hales: A Passion for Speakers | Stereophile.com
A similar driver design (Alum. vs. PolyKevlar ) to the FOCAL 10L6411 (30Hz@-7dB) is the FOCAL 10K6411 (30H@-8dB). Those diaphragms generally e.g., alum., Kevlar, glass fiber, carbon fiber are not my cup of tea as was stated before and you need to be careful using them.
18 Stupid Uses of Carbon Fiber
Last edited:
As was stated (many drivers lists and threads on the subject) the best driver that can give you what you look for Scanspeak 26W/4867T00 Woofer - Revelator
then give it the best enclosure and alignment and you are set.
Assume (making) a good (the best) design from a speaker driver and not an enclosure (existent) for a speaker driver that you don't know off. Start a new project with a clean sheet of paper.
then give it the best enclosure and alignment and you are set.
Assume (making) a good (the best) design from a speaker driver and not an enclosure (existent) for a speaker driver that you don't know off. Start a new project with a clean sheet of paper.
Thanks Inductor
OK someone in USA has a pair the mentioned Focal for $135 plus shipping NOS in box.
I wrote to him as I interested to purchase. He still has the woofers I'm not sure he would ship those to Canada after I asked for the shipping cost he never answered to me.
Thanks for the research you did on the Focal.
I did a lot to and I see a lot of guys has these woofer for sale on the forum, Ebay and other places.
I had some 8" Audax woven carbon fibre woofer about 10 years a go. To me that was enough as a learning experience.. I was unable to go lower 45Hz.
So I agree with you hard cone woofers or hard paper only. Or paper mixture..
Yesterday I compared the JBL with the Hi-Vi (soon I'll do it with the Alcone to)
I have the feeling I'll not go after the JBL! Way to big driver.
Al do has nice upper bass and nice extension up in the mid area that is not what I need in these project.
If I where to buy the woofer today I would probably use 2x8" 4R /each side so no way to go with 14" drivers.
How I wrote earlier I do follow the other thread where they use these Alcone driver 2 per side.
He like the result a lot but to me not even the basic calculation ad up from his enclosure
75L BR enclosure
See att. simulation he made
White from 75L BR, yellow 110L BR.
I just see your Scan speak advise, yes you right! At the beginning when I started these project supposed to pick that Scan.
Many people say for the brand name we pay $$$ but I think still worth it
We would know we get quality for the bucks!
Now I have to do something with these drivers I have.
Greetings Gabor
OK someone in USA has a pair the mentioned Focal for $135 plus shipping NOS in box.
I wrote to him as I interested to purchase. He still has the woofers I'm not sure he would ship those to Canada after I asked for the shipping cost he never answered to me.
Thanks for the research you did on the Focal.
I did a lot to and I see a lot of guys has these woofer for sale on the forum, Ebay and other places.
I had some 8" Audax woven carbon fibre woofer about 10 years a go. To me that was enough as a learning experience.. I was unable to go lower 45Hz.
So I agree with you hard cone woofers or hard paper only. Or paper mixture..
Yesterday I compared the JBL with the Hi-Vi (soon I'll do it with the Alcone to)
I have the feeling I'll not go after the JBL! Way to big driver.
Al do has nice upper bass and nice extension up in the mid area that is not what I need in these project.
If I where to buy the woofer today I would probably use 2x8" 4R /each side so no way to go with 14" drivers.
How I wrote earlier I do follow the other thread where they use these Alcone driver 2 per side.
He like the result a lot but to me not even the basic calculation ad up from his enclosure
75L BR enclosure
See att. simulation he made
White from 75L BR, yellow 110L BR.
I just see your Scan speak advise, yes you right! At the beginning when I started these project supposed to pick that Scan.
Many people say for the brand name we pay $$$ but I think still worth it
We would know we get quality for the bucks!
Now I have to do something with these drivers I have.
Greetings Gabor
Attachments
Hello
Today I made some (final) decision with these project.
Probably some of you who helped me does not agree with me but these decision was made after a good tests.
At first time I do love what I hear!!
The idea came from these Germany speaker store site from these project
Strassacker: Speaker Building, Components
Also from the DIY audio forum- these project
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/226914-my-refspeaker.html
At first I thought I will sell the HI-VI F10 woofers and get one more pair Alcone
So I made a listening test with the two Alcone woofer connected parallel (unfortunately I will get 4 Ohms) with a 4mH inductor.
Sounded better but still a bit thin at the low end
After I thought let make a test with one Alcone and one Hi-Vi connected the same way.
I do love what I heard!
The Hi-Vi has a bit more weight and warmer al do a bit round the low end
The Alcone a bit cold, thin but the same time precise
The two woofer complete each other very nice.
So that is what I plan to put these two woofer in one speaker of course separated enclosure
The Hi-Vi at 60L BR tuned to 31-32Hz the Alcone 65L BR tuned to 31Hz.
Again the two woofer enclosure will be separated from each other.
The question remain I will connect them to give 4R or or 16R?
The Gorlich mid drivers remain and for now the Morel tweeters also
Al do I think to get a pair GB ribbon tweeter, I do had them before and I love them a lot
They are nice tweeters.
Inductor I know the Scan Speak advise you gave me at last post very good advise!!
All do I had a two pair Revelator 5" & 6.5" and a pair tweeter. A bit pricy and I'm not sure one woofer would meet my taste from that enclosure.
Now the two woofer will much the mid Fs..
I have to build a new enclosure sometimes later.
Why I stick with the Alcone
Only I read good thinks about, even do my opinion a bit different. Matched with the Hi-Vi to me sound better than the two Alcone.
The sound become fuller, much bit warmer
and more precise than just the Hi-Vi..
I had in my mind two other woofer, those are 4R types but the ESS Labs woofers I newer heard them, may be good may be not so good I can't risk further investment into unknown speakers
ESS 689-1012 10" Cast Frame Woofer Speaker | 264-620
The Other I had in my mind from Peerless, these is a subwoofer
https://www.solen.ca/pdf/peerless/830846.pdf
The Peerless is on sale here in Canada I - only heard these online
Again from the above mentioned woofers I would need 4Pc to get 8R/ speakers.
The result I would get not guaranteed so risky investment
What I heard from the Alcone /Hi-Vi I love it just I get 4R or 8R impedance.
That is the life, we can not have everything in our way.
Guys if you are not to upset because the change in the project please comment
Your constructive comment, advise always welcome!!
Greetings Gabor
Today I made some (final) decision with these project.
Probably some of you who helped me does not agree with me but these decision was made after a good tests.
At first time I do love what I hear!!
The idea came from these Germany speaker store site from these project
Strassacker: Speaker Building, Components
Also from the DIY audio forum- these project
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/226914-my-refspeaker.html
At first I thought I will sell the HI-VI F10 woofers and get one more pair Alcone
So I made a listening test with the two Alcone woofer connected parallel (unfortunately I will get 4 Ohms) with a 4mH inductor.
Sounded better but still a bit thin at the low end
After I thought let make a test with one Alcone and one Hi-Vi connected the same way.
I do love what I heard!
The Hi-Vi has a bit more weight and warmer al do a bit round the low end
The Alcone a bit cold, thin but the same time precise
The two woofer complete each other very nice.
So that is what I plan to put these two woofer in one speaker of course separated enclosure
The Hi-Vi at 60L BR tuned to 31-32Hz the Alcone 65L BR tuned to 31Hz.
Again the two woofer enclosure will be separated from each other.
The question remain I will connect them to give 4R or or 16R?
The Gorlich mid drivers remain and for now the Morel tweeters also
Al do I think to get a pair GB ribbon tweeter, I do had them before and I love them a lot
They are nice tweeters.
Inductor I know the Scan Speak advise you gave me at last post very good advise!!
All do I had a two pair Revelator 5" & 6.5" and a pair tweeter. A bit pricy and I'm not sure one woofer would meet my taste from that enclosure.
Now the two woofer will much the mid Fs..
I have to build a new enclosure sometimes later.
Why I stick with the Alcone
Only I read good thinks about, even do my opinion a bit different. Matched with the Hi-Vi to me sound better than the two Alcone.
The sound become fuller, much bit warmer
and more precise than just the Hi-Vi..
I had in my mind two other woofer, those are 4R types but the ESS Labs woofers I newer heard them, may be good may be not so good I can't risk further investment into unknown speakers
ESS 689-1012 10" Cast Frame Woofer Speaker | 264-620
The Other I had in my mind from Peerless, these is a subwoofer
https://www.solen.ca/pdf/peerless/830846.pdf
The Peerless is on sale here in Canada I - only heard these online
Again from the above mentioned woofers I would need 4Pc to get 8R/ speakers.
The result I would get not guaranteed so risky investment
What I heard from the Alcone /Hi-Vi I love it just I get 4R or 8R impedance.
That is the life, we can not have everything in our way.
Guys if you are not to upset because the change in the project please comment
Your constructive comment, advise always welcome!!
Greetings Gabor
Attachments
Hi Gabor,
I would pick the Visaton driver at first hand for mains but not in a ported box as this driver is excellent in a closed box when Qtc=~0.5-0.6 and use the same driver in real subs (2 or more) where the extension below ~50 Hz can be fully be exploited when placed near walls/corners:
Pictures of modeled sub's :
b
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT9jH2F-jwQ
No it is not mine!
Reason I posted it sound nice even true online.. I like it.
My plan is final with the Alcone, Hi-Vi 2Pc 10" combo.. I do love the sound I get from the two woofer. Way better than the mentioned 14" JBL woofer.
Of course I compared them with out enclosure..
The Alcone in 65L BR and the HI-VI in 60L BR both tuned to 31Hz will be nice. I think I will bi-amplify the two woofer so I can keep the impedance at 8 Ohms hat will be the best solution, at least I want to have that option.....
A few days a go some one posted a pair 10" Revelator Scan Speak woofers excellent condition (gently used) for less than half price.. I made some sim. but I decide to stick to the plan. I already has those woofers.
Really I do love the sound I got.
I built several speakers and compared and listened a lot of drivers with out enclosure so I got a lot of experience.
Right now having problem to find the right material for enclosure.
I do not want to use MDF..
Home Depot Canada sell Russian Baltic birch 2 feet x 4 feet small pieces only. I would need a 8 feet by 4 feet full sheet
Those small panels from Home Depot it cost 3 time as much on the end and half would go to waste.
The 4 side panel will be 48" tall 16" deep (inches).. plus the two front panel one more sheet that is about $250 and still not enough
If I could get a full 8x4 feet sheet that less than 100 bucks and enough for the two enclosure
Having said that Russian Baltic not my favorite material for enclosure. Would love to use hard wood (ply) like oak or bamboo..
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