You pick always the wrong drivers.
When you get the right driver you just get the wrong speaker (net).
You keep repeating the same mistakes time after time.
You are after something you just have no idea (you don't model or do it wrong - wrong approach - just trying to help you NPI). THE PROOF IS THAT YOU ARE AFTER WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING (D'Appolito, Istvan Varga) (Sorry my caps look). Things like ""too much praise" or ""changing his mind"" are not helping you as you found the bad way (time & money). Sorry but I saw it coming since your first or second post.
1. For a target frequency (alignment/Q/roll-off) you need a driver
2. For a target driver (group of drivers) you need a speaker volume/net (different net/alignments/calibration/speaker types).
3. For a target speaker (net) + driver (s) you need to pursue your objectives and not skipping (in pricing) or testing other subjective drivers (and drivers sizes) or if you do that you need to start over.
When you get the right driver you just get the wrong speaker (net).
You keep repeating the same mistakes time after time.
You are after something you just have no idea (you don't model or do it wrong - wrong approach - just trying to help you NPI). THE PROOF IS THAT YOU ARE AFTER WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING (D'Appolito, Istvan Varga) (Sorry my caps look). Things like ""too much praise" or ""changing his mind"" are not helping you as you found the bad way (time & money). Sorry but I saw it coming since your first or second post.
1. For a target frequency (alignment/Q/roll-off) you need a driver
2. For a target driver (group of drivers) you need a speaker volume/net (different net/alignments/calibration/speaker types).
3. For a target speaker (net) + driver (s) you need to pursue your objectives and not skipping (in pricing) or testing other subjective drivers (and drivers sizes) or if you do that you need to start over.
Partially you right but only partially
I mentioned Istvan Varga the Sonido guy because he made measurement from my drivers back 20 years a go when I lived in Hungary. Even do we he made measurements we could not achieve the result we aimed for.
About the Alcone I was looking for a decent woofer with those data it has, so first I found the Alcone and after found out someone like him think is a great driver.
All do I wouldn't not mind the Qts would be a bit higher like 36 or so
D'Appolito used these woofer (he is someone whom we could trust at least I thought) but after all look like he just introduced these woofers and got some $$$$ who knows.
I do not just go blind folded and buy something. PLEASE do not say that.
I read the parameter of the drivers also the manufac. advise for the enclosure.
I'm sorry I'm not set up to do my own measurement on raw driver including in enclosure.
I would need special room, microphone and lot of other thinks- I think you know that better than me. Even after that the success not guaranteed only reason I mentioned the Sonido maker Varga Isvan. He did measured my drivers and he designed the crossover..
Not totally my fault if we can not trust on the data of the speakers.
I know alignment is very important, that is why I will reduce the size of the enclosure to the advised max 65L. I will glue the enclosure bottom on so no air can escape and precisely set up the port tube etc.
To understand me one think to have a measurement of the woofer or the data and other to like what sound produce.
I have old Polydax driver (used in Spica)and I like them a lot but only 6.5inches
Also I have a pair 16 inch old alnico JBL with white cone sound incredible even with out enclosure.. Sometimes I think it would be great for dipole set up..
To some driver even the best enclosure design not good enough to bring out satisfactory result unfortunately even do the data suggest that is a great driver.
What I learned true these project unfortunately many of those in the market supported by D'Appolito-s to get the $$$ out of our pocket.
Or may be my goal is to high
I will see son.
Again please do not write I just go after other people, that simple not the reality, that makes me upset.
Yes people opinion count but after I go true the data sheet.
Inductor I do count on your opinion to and I would love to keep it that way and many thanks for your help.
Probably I'm just too tired about these project that is why I wrote those stuff in my previous letter.
Any way still some test ahead of me before I can say neither woofer is useless .
The best think would be if I could go to the store or warehouse where most of the drivers with the right parameters (to my enclosure) available and I could make A-B tests.
That would quickly resolve my problem
Greetings
I mentioned Istvan Varga the Sonido guy because he made measurement from my drivers back 20 years a go when I lived in Hungary. Even do we he made measurements we could not achieve the result we aimed for.
About the Alcone I was looking for a decent woofer with those data it has, so first I found the Alcone and after found out someone like him think is a great driver.
All do I wouldn't not mind the Qts would be a bit higher like 36 or so
D'Appolito used these woofer (he is someone whom we could trust at least I thought) but after all look like he just introduced these woofers and got some $$$$ who knows.
I do not just go blind folded and buy something. PLEASE do not say that.
I read the parameter of the drivers also the manufac. advise for the enclosure.
I'm sorry I'm not set up to do my own measurement on raw driver including in enclosure.
I would need special room, microphone and lot of other thinks- I think you know that better than me. Even after that the success not guaranteed only reason I mentioned the Sonido maker Varga Isvan. He did measured my drivers and he designed the crossover..
Not totally my fault if we can not trust on the data of the speakers.
I know alignment is very important, that is why I will reduce the size of the enclosure to the advised max 65L. I will glue the enclosure bottom on so no air can escape and precisely set up the port tube etc.
To understand me one think to have a measurement of the woofer or the data and other to like what sound produce.
I have old Polydax driver (used in Spica)and I like them a lot but only 6.5inches
Also I have a pair 16 inch old alnico JBL with white cone sound incredible even with out enclosure.. Sometimes I think it would be great for dipole set up..
To some driver even the best enclosure design not good enough to bring out satisfactory result unfortunately even do the data suggest that is a great driver.
What I learned true these project unfortunately many of those in the market supported by D'Appolito-s to get the $$$ out of our pocket.
Or may be my goal is to high
I will see son.
Again please do not write I just go after other people, that simple not the reality, that makes me upset.
Yes people opinion count but after I go true the data sheet.
Inductor I do count on your opinion to and I would love to keep it that way and many thanks for your help.
Probably I'm just too tired about these project that is why I wrote those stuff in my previous letter.
Any way still some test ahead of me before I can say neither woofer is useless .
The best think would be if I could go to the store or warehouse where most of the drivers with the right parameters (to my enclosure) available and I could make A-B tests.
That would quickly resolve my problem
Greetings
I'm just saying, not accusing you. This an example of your mindset.
I would advise in a more step by step approach to your project (and driver) that you didn't take, maybe in view of some of the (your) expected results and jumping ahead.
What are your objectives? Failing to answer these questions is a big mistake by many members (I'm not saying is you, BYP)
1. I know you want 20/30Hz frequency response in the deep lows (in room), and
(we can take the previous drivers (many) as both inadequate or insufficient for this project and no need to discuss that more)
2. you r using a 10" because you have a previous enclosure (another problem put it in those terms) but I always understood about those issues the question is:
- Do you want to take that extra step?
Your target (frequency/quality/performance) will be your objective not the price/size or subjective "quality/measurements" comments by other gurus.
You may have to upgrade to a 12" if needed but you may find a 10" driver ready and functional for your mission I'm almost sure (believe), the question is do you?!
3. You are using a volume net (around 65L) so that's another target for more or less (not double of course). "We" have to accept the consequences of using a driver that is not good for that cabinet and change driver as best option in case this happens.
4. From what I remember you don't have problems in using a BR (bass-reflex).
5. You need to match that with satellites (pair) and you are building a pair of speakers (subs). (Did you mention them ? please state the #post, thanks.)
6. You keep asking US to make experiments/simulations (of your drivers) instead of believing our comments (and drivers/alignments).
7. The more you write big long texts the worse it is for us to understand. A lot of text(s) and treads (many members do that, they have a problem and they open 3 different threads because they believe the number will help them understand and it usually does not help them) is difficult to read and to follow, with fail experiments and marketing tips (be it good or bad) by second people. This is the kind of information we need to know that you must write, not me, and that we have been asking... for years (and various threads). When you fail (in other members threads too) to answer, interest goes away, vanishes and you will fail miserably.
...and to take it to #10 not letting you down,
8. Please read.
9. Please post.
10. Please read, answer and test.
As Ernest Hemingway said:
""I like to listen. I have learned a great deal from listening carefully. Most people never listen.""
Hello Inductor
I do not want to take these to personal level under no circumstances.
1. I know you want 20/30Hz frequency response in the deep lows (in room), and
(we can take the previous drivers (many) as both inadequate or insufficient for this project and no need to discuss that more
I never wrote I want 20Hz........ that is over stated by a good margin............
30Hz would be plenty if the quality is there. Even with room gain acceptable!
I forget to mention one France store who sell these Alcones to has different data their site, not far from the orig but nut not the same
I'll have to look up that again, I'm sure they made some measurement to share that.
The 65L enclosure req. based on my simulation and Alcone advise that to.
It was a mistake to go up 75L but I'll resolve that issue
12" woofer is useless to these enclosure, to big but has other problem to that is why I'll newer go there
Usually the larger the speaker most of the time is slower (not always)
That is why my original plan was to go with 8" woofer - only problem with that hard to get 30Hz deep quality bass.
OK one think left, set up the enclosure 65L, tune it to the factory advise and let the woofer burned in.
(Only problem with the burn in I lose half of the woofer value in case later I decide to sell them.)
If I'm still not satisfied I have to get read of these woofers!!!
I'll read the tread from another DIY-er who also picked these Alcone and post the access here so we can read it.
At least I will read so I can learn or see how he managed his project.
When I found that tread I read into, I remember he want larger enclosure for these woofers (he uses 2pc/side)
Very likely he also not satisfied with the result.
Again just to know his experience on these woofer.
Until I do not adjust the enclosure to 65L and tune it to the factory advise frequency I can share any concrete.
All I can write out of experience I'm not in love with these woofer with out enclosure, free air listening test, so very likely the enclosure tuning will not resolve my problem.
Greetings G
I do not want to take these to personal level under no circumstances.
1. I know you want 20/30Hz frequency response in the deep lows (in room), and
(we can take the previous drivers (many) as both inadequate or insufficient for this project and no need to discuss that more
I never wrote I want 20Hz........ that is over stated by a good margin
............ 30Hz would be plenty if the quality is there. Even with room gain acceptable!
I forget to mention one France store who sell these Alcones to has different data their site, not far from the orig but nut not the same
I'll have to look up that again, I'm sure they made some measurement to share that.
The 65L enclosure req. based on my simulation and Alcone advise that to.
It was a mistake to go up 75L but I'll resolve that issue
12" woofer is useless to these enclosure, to big but has other problem to that is why I'll newer go there
Usually the larger the speaker most of the time is slower (not always)
That is why my original plan was to go with 8" woofer - only problem with that hard to get 30Hz deep quality bass.
OK one think left, set up the enclosure 65L, tune it to the factory advise and let the woofer burned in.
(Only problem with the burn in I lose half of the woofer value in case later I decide to sell them.)
If I'm still not satisfied I have to get read of these woofers!!!
I'll read the tread from another DIY-er who also picked these Alcone and post the access here so we can read it.
At least I will read so I can learn or see how he managed his project.
When I found that tread I read into, I remember he want larger enclosure for these woofers (he uses 2pc/side)
Very likely he also not satisfied with the result.
Again just to know his experience on these woofer.
Until I do not adjust the enclosure to 65L and tune it to the factory advise frequency I can share any concrete.
All I can write out of experience I'm not in love with these woofer with out enclosure, free air listening test, so very likely the enclosure tuning will not resolve my problem.
Greetings G
Here is the promised thread with the Alcone woofers
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/226914-my-refspeaker.html
Greetings
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/226914-my-refspeaker.html
Greetings
I don't know about the X-max that info is missing. Compare the Alcone suspension to the HI-VI is softer. I know that mean nothing (not answer to your question)
Is not Peerless India, made after some Germany design in China or Taiwan.
Very popular in Germany like the Monacor and some other European country. I ordered mine from Germany
I have both side flared port tube, was sold as a 3 inch diameter tube but the opening end almost 6 inch.
Length is between 12-13 inch..
I do not use that port tube how is it now. Only use the mounting part (because I already cut the hole for that), the rest I will replace it with 3 inch drain pipe or what ever tube I will find at Home Hardware store.
I want to bent it 90 degree done inside the box like that Visaton port tube (picture posted on the previous page)
If I only can get 40Hz these woofer must go- no kidding!!!!!!!!!
I can get 40Hz with room gain from my Visaton AL130 out of a 12L bass reflex enclosure.
Do not forget the Hi-Vi F10 does goes deeper than the Alcone.
The difference I heard bigger bass (in quantity) but not as precise, and tube amp like round sound (bass) (in a bad way)
Probably because I got addicted to metal cone speakers like the Visaton- last 8-9 years in my system.
Based on the factory simulation ( if the speaker data is correct) from 65L enclosure f-3 28Hz
After my sim result the best will be if I tune it to 31Hz, look much better if is tuned to 31Hz.
That enclosure tuned to 31Hz almost perfect for the Hi-Vi to (for test)
The guy has similar opinion on these woofer, that project was posted by me at previous post
My RefSpeaker THE DIFERENCE HE USES 2 WOOFER PER SIDE from 75L BR enclosure, latter he want a bigger 110L enclosure for the two driver.
He like that speaker a lot.
To me 4R (2X8Ohm woofer paralleled) not good.
I will have to ask him if he made some measurement on the Alcone drive.
The measurement from the speakers are very nice..
If you interested please read it it is only a few page.
Greetings G
Is not Peerless India, made after some Germany design in China or Taiwan.
Very popular in Germany like the Monacor and some other European country. I ordered mine from Germany
I have both side flared port tube, was sold as a 3 inch diameter tube but the opening end almost 6 inch.
Length is between 12-13 inch..
I do not use that port tube how is it now. Only use the mounting part (because I already cut the hole for that), the rest I will replace it with 3 inch drain pipe or what ever tube I will find at Home Hardware store.
I want to bent it 90 degree done inside the box like that Visaton port tube (picture posted on the previous page)
If I only can get 40Hz these woofer must go- no kidding!!!!!!!!!
I can get 40Hz with room gain from my Visaton AL130 out of a 12L bass reflex enclosure.
Do not forget the Hi-Vi F10 does goes deeper than the Alcone.
The difference I heard bigger bass (in quantity) but not as precise, and tube amp like round sound (bass) (in a bad way)
Probably because I got addicted to metal cone speakers like the Visaton- last 8-9 years in my system.
Based on the factory simulation ( if the speaker data is correct) from 65L enclosure f-3 28Hz
After my sim result the best will be if I tune it to 31Hz, look much better if is tuned to 31Hz.
That enclosure tuned to 31Hz almost perfect for the Hi-Vi to (for test)
The guy has similar opinion on these woofer, that project was posted by me at previous post
My RefSpeaker THE DIFERENCE HE USES 2 WOOFER PER SIDE from 75L BR enclosure, latter he want a bigger 110L enclosure for the two driver.
He like that speaker a lot.
To me 4R (2X8Ohm woofer paralleled) not good.
I will have to ask him if he made some measurement on the Alcone drive.
The measurement from the speakers are very nice..
If you interested please read it it is only a few page.
Greetings G
Strassacker: Speaker Building, Components
power handling (continuous/programme) = 150/250 W
frequency range = 25-1000 Hz
resonance frequency fs = 28 Hz
impedance R = 8 Ohm
sound pressure level SPL = 90 dB (2,83V; 1m)
DC resistance Re = 6,4 Ohm
voice coil inductance L = 0,7 mH
effective piston radiating area Sd = 346 cm2
effective mechanical mass incl. air load mms = 54 g
equivalent volume of compliance Vas = 100 l
total Q factor Qts = 0,32 (Qms=4,1, Qes=0,35)
voice coil diameter = 50 mm
maximum peak linear excursion vibration xlin = +/- 3,5 mm
mounting diameter d = 239 mm
overall diameter d = 272 mm
mounting depth (not countersunk) t = 108 mm
mass m = 3,3 kg
power handling (continuous/programme) = 150/250 W
frequency range = 25-1000 Hz
resonance frequency fs = 28 Hz
impedance R = 8 Ohm
sound pressure level SPL = 90 dB (2,83V; 1m)
DC resistance Re = 6,4 Ohm
voice coil inductance L = 0,7 mH
effective piston radiating area Sd = 346 cm2
effective mechanical mass incl. air load mms = 54 g
equivalent volume of compliance Vas = 100 l
total Q factor Qts = 0,32 (Qms=4,1, Qes=0,35)
voice coil diameter = 50 mm
maximum peak linear excursion vibration xlin = +/- 3,5 mm
mounting diameter d = 239 mm
overall diameter d = 272 mm
mounting depth (not countersunk) t = 108 mm
mass m = 3,3 kg
Hello
These is my port tube
https://www.solen.ca/pub/index.php?...eau1=1&niveau2=2&niveau3=47&s1=2&s2=2&s3=&s4=
I really want to mode that, keep the mounting side (because the hole already cut) and use straight tube (not flared ) but bend it 90 degree like the Visaton on the picture attached.
If I remember well I need 22cm from the 3 inch tube plus I ad extra 1.5-2cm for the one side wich remain parabolic.
Greetings G
These is my port tube
https://www.solen.ca/pub/index.php?...eau1=1&niveau2=2&niveau3=47&s1=2&s2=2&s3=&s4=
I really want to mode that, keep the mounting side (because the hole already cut) and use straight tube (not flared ) but bend it 90 degree like the Visaton on the picture attached.
If I remember well I need 22cm from the 3 inch tube plus I ad extra 1.5-2cm for the one side wich remain parabolic.
Greetings G
Attachments
I do like these sim result!
And in these enclosure tuned like that I can test the Hi-Vi to (just in case)
My problems until now
The driver was not mounted with screws so breath all around, the bottom of the enclosure only mounted with 4pc screws so the air escape there to
The port tube to long and also the air escape all around because - not glued
I didn't glued all mentioned part because I knew probably the 75L enclosure to big.
Even do at the simulation from 75L acceptable to in real life I have different experience
All do not my favorite driver these Alcone woofer
Interestingly many people love the sound of these driver. My woofer run less than 10 hours until now, basically NEW.
Greetings G
if you want a reasonable bass performance, get the basics right, tightened the drivers properly, seal the box for any possible leak joints.
use some battens if you want to have removable panels.
you cant tell the drivers performance if your build is not proper.
again if you have impedance plot measurement test, you will know whats going on with your box.
use some battens if you want to have removable panels.
you cant tell the drivers performance if your build is not proper.
again if you have impedance plot measurement test, you will know whats going on with your box.
Yes you right, totally agree on these
Only reason I haven't done properly because I had second thoughts about the 75L enclosure (to large).
Now I need to chisel of 4 sheet of Baltic birch to get the 65L- sheet by sheet.
Plus I live out the bottom and one extra sheet glued to the bottom.
That is about 10L.
I supposed to stick to the 65L (Alcone advise) when the enclosure was enlarged.
Thank you for all
Greetings Gabor
No,Hello Inductor
I do not want to take these to personal level under no circumstances.
I never wrote I want 20Hz........ that is over stated by a good margin
30Hz would be plenty if the quality is there. Even with room gain acceptable!
I forget to mention one France store who sell these Alcones to has different data their site, not far from the orig but nut not the same
I'll have to look up that again, I'm sure they made some measurement to share that.
The 65L enclosure req. based on my simulation and Alcone advise that to.
It was a mistake to go up 75L but I'll resolve that issue
12" woofer is useless to these enclosure, to big but has other problem to that is why I'll newer go there
Usually the larger the speaker most of the time is slower (not always)
That is why my original plan was to go with 8" woofer - only problem with that hard to get 30Hz deep quality bass.
SB Acoustics SB23NRXS45-8, 8" Woofer
Give it a try, response to sub frequency 20 Hz , guaranteed
70L, F-3 32 Hz - 8" - SB ACOUSTICS SB23NRXS45-8, VB = 70 L, FB = 22.5
Port int diam 7.4 cm, length 31.04 cm
If I got it right right you say to add extra X-Liter to the total volume of the enclosure
These X= the port tube volume
What about the room the woofer itself displace?
Some guy calculate that to
Others say the port tube is part of the enclosure since only a tube
Only need to ad about about 2L or so for the woofer
Others say with the stuffing material I can play to get the best sound.
Would be good to clear all these before I cut of to much from the enclosure and after that will be the problem.
Someone who used the SB woofers advise to stay away from them.
Remember I was interested on the SB 10" woofer
From the 8" SB I would pick the alu cone driver from Madisound.
Greetings G
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