I suggest trying a quadrature sine wave generator instead of replacing the motor and controller. This one should work with the appropriate power supply and amplification.
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As I mentioned in a previous post I changed the capacitors out in my controller box to round off the 4 stepper motor signals (On the advice of John) and this really helped the sound quality and reduced the motor whine I was getting to inaudible levels from the listening seat. I assume going all analog will bring more gains. John is convinced that the stepper motor is the best overall solution though.
A-143-9
(scroll down for English)
As I mentioned in a previous post I changed the capacitors out in my controller box to round off the 4 stepper motor signals (On the advice of John) and this really helped the sound quality and reduced the motor whine I was getting to inaudible levels from the listening seat. I assume going all analog will bring more gains. John is convinced that the stepper motor is the best overall solution though.
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I worked with John and the original guy at the supplier he worked with to get a few new ones made as samples. It took me about 6 months or more to get them. I wanted to buy a couple hundred of them and put them up for sale to Basis and Sota owners but I never could get the supplier interested enough in that. You can check with John but I don't think he has any more of his original production run.
You do not want to run without a mat as you will probably damage your records unless you can achieve "clean-room" levels of dust control on that platter.
Any mat you use needs to be very thin or the perimeter seal will "suck-in" if you use much vacuum.
Definitely get your order in for a spare perimeter seal, bearing grease, and a few belts.
You do not want to run without a mat as you will probably damage your records unless you can achieve "clean-room" levels of dust control on that platter.
Any mat you use needs to be very thin or the perimeter seal will "suck-in" if you use much vacuum.
Definitely get your order in for a spare perimeter seal, bearing grease, and a few belts.
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Congratulations!! You got a killer deal on it.
If you (or anyone) is interested in the details on the original paint used on these tables PM me and I will dig it up. I can't bear to have mine out of service for the time it would take to restore it properly or I would tear it apart and have it re-done by a professional.
If you have the space I suggest you order the plans John publishes for the "compressor upgrade". I did that a few years ago and it was a big improvement. I can now run 80psi at the arm and -24 inches vacuum on the platter. The upgrade is a 2 cylinder compressor from the model 2.0 but it needs to be out in the garage or someplace as it's very loud.
If you (or anyone) is interested in the details on the original paint used on these tables PM me and I will dig it up. I can't bear to have mine out of service for the time it would take to restore it properly or I would tear it apart and have it re-done by a professional.
If you have the space I suggest you order the plans John publishes for the "compressor upgrade". I did that a few years ago and it was a big improvement. I can now run 80psi at the arm and -24 inches vacuum on the platter. The upgrade is a 2 cylinder compressor from the model 2.0 but it needs to be out in the garage or someplace as it's very loud.
All,
I'm delighted to tell you that I am waiting for a restored Model One (including the original spec tall table) to land here in the UK, having finally found one to buy at a sensible price in California. (Here in Europe, I have seen them go recently for Bergmann Magne prices second hand.)
I will then have the slightly less delightful task of paying the eye-popping customs duty and sales tax levied on both purchase price and shipping charges by our voracious government to spring it. But it should be with me within ten days.
I shall keep you updated and would be grateful if I can tap into your pool of knowledge and experience as I bring it into commission.
My experience of air bearings has so far been limited to a (British) Terminator Pro and the American MG-1 Linear Tracker, both of which rely on aquarium pumps to provide the pressurised air, so am used to running air pipes and using clutch cleaner to keep key surfaces clean. And I have yet to wreck a cartridge on one of these arms...
Photos will follow in due course.
Best
Peter
The module shown would give the most benefit with the least work.
However going to a 3-phase motor is a massive improvement. The DPS was available with both 2-phase and 3-phase options using the exact same motor. The 3-phase was twice the price and well worth it. Both were all analog, the two phase generated the 90 degree phase shift (quadrature) with a capacitor off the AC line.
I don't know how the original DPS power supply generated its signals as I designed the Ayre supply from a black box design that ensured 120 degree phase shift wih all analog parts and zero-feedback power amplifiers. I am told that DPS now has a lower cost 3 phase supply that I suspect uses DDS to generate the analog signals and "chip amps'
The module shown likely uses DDS and then you have the RFI contamination problem that John tried to fight with ferrites. The problem with ferrites is that they solve one problem but create an even worse one that only shows up over time. Quick A/B tests will fool you.
I am very, very sorry to hear that the platter mats are no longer available. This is likely why the Versa is available at a bargain price. With a conversion to an all-analog 3-phase motor and higher vacuum and air pressures, it would likely destroy any of the $200,000 turntables.
Excellent advice on the other parts, although I don't know what good it will do without a usable platter mat.
The paint used is called Nextel. We used it on Avalon speakers for years as a less expensive option than wood veneer. It was a two-part catalyzed paint, as was DuPont Imron (used for cars). I know that Imron is no longer made due to its toxicity. I would guess that the same is true of Nextel.
The Nextel speakers sounded noticeably different from the wood veneered ones. I would guess that the difference would be even greater on the Versa plinth. However I would also guess that it would be even better to use Alcantra (synthetic suede) applied with a thin layer of acrylic adhesive.
Well if there is enough interest I will contact the supplier again and get a run of these made. Problem is I may need to order a LOT of them so I need to know that I can sell enough to make my investment back (at least) or it is not really worth my time.
If you have a versa or other vacuum hold-down record player PM me the number of mats you would be interested in buying and I will use that feedback to decide if it is worthwhile. I did manage to get a few samples so I don't really have any personal need for more. But I hate to see people running this table without the correct mat.
If you have a versa or other vacuum hold-down record player PM me the number of mats you would be interested in buying and I will use that feedback to decide if it is worthwhile. I did manage to get a few samples so I don't really have any personal need for more. But I hate to see people running this table without the correct mat.
Thank you Versafan!
To do this properly, we should really publicize this to both owners of other brands of vacuum hold-down 'tables and even the manufacturers/designers thereof. Let me know if I can help. I have many contacts in the industry, some friendly, some not so much.
I may be able to reach both Basis and TechDAS. Also Kuzma if they make a vacuum 'table - I've not kept up with these things lately. Possibly Continuum, possibly Brinkmann (if they make one). I'll need help finding out who even makes vacuum 'tables.
There is a big group of Kenwood/Trio 'tables that don't use vacuum but may be interested in this due to the metal platte.
To do this properly, we should really publicize this to both owners of other brands of vacuum hold-down 'tables and even the manufacturers/designers thereof. Let me know if I can help. I have many contacts in the industry, some friendly, some not so much.
I may be able to reach both Basis and TechDAS. Also Kuzma if they make a vacuum 'table - I've not kept up with these things lately. Possibly Continuum, possibly Brinkmann (if they make one). I'll need help finding out who even makes vacuum 'tables.
There is a big group of Kenwood/Trio 'tables that don't use vacuum but may be interested in this due to the metal platte.
If anyone wants to send me a sliver of it (a couple mm), I can tell you what the material is so that you can get more.
Hi Wayne,
I'm not sure how readily available it is. For decades it was the paint of choice for custom bicycle frames. Last year I visited my framebuilder friend and he said that he had to jump through a bunch of hoops and pay a lot of money to get what was for him a lifetime supply. If it were readily available, I don't think it would have been a big deal for him, but I know that it was a huge problem. Sorry I can't remember the details. My memory is not as good as when I was young.
Right, the Model 1 turntable has arrived and I'm recovering from the hernia-inducing lifting of the boxes...I've had to attend to business during the week but the big unpack starts tomorrow.
Before I plug anything in, may I seek some advice, please?
I'm assuming in the short term that a simple step down transformer from 220/240v to 110/120v volts, but with a 50Hz frequency, should cause no speed problems with the turntable as it is a DC motor?
However, what about the same for the air pump motor? I do have a power conditioner which can reshape the frequency to 60Hz but it seems a bit of a waste to be running a motor off it.
I prefer running pumps where I can at 110v because it is a lot quieter, but I have only done it so far with dual (220/110v 50/60Hz) rated machines so the motors have never been in danger of overheating. The pumps have also been feeding very low pressure (1.5 psi max) to the tonearms, so they are operating nowhere near their limits.
I already have some American hifi kit (including valve/tube amps) which I suspect would be benefit from running at the frequency their makers intended and I was wondering if, longer term, while my beloved is away on business for three weeks, I might be better off ato get my electrician in to run me a dedicated 110v circuit from my main switch board to my listening room and hook up one of these - 50Hz to 60Hz transformer Technical Specifications | RV Transformers - to take care of my American contingent?
I'm afraid insurance stipulations will bar me from installing any of the homebrew Siemens Micromaster 400 Series type rigs discussed here and elsewhere. So I will need to get a certificated electrician in and that will cost me, so I might as well do it right.
Incidentally, does anybody happen to have a scan copy of the Versa manual please? Vinylengine appears not to have one.
Thanks in advance.
Peter
Before I plug anything in, may I seek some advice, please?
I'm assuming in the short term that a simple step down transformer from 220/240v to 110/120v volts, but with a 50Hz frequency, should cause no speed problems with the turntable as it is a DC motor?
However, what about the same for the air pump motor? I do have a power conditioner which can reshape the frequency to 60Hz but it seems a bit of a waste to be running a motor off it.
I prefer running pumps where I can at 110v because it is a lot quieter, but I have only done it so far with dual (220/110v 50/60Hz) rated machines so the motors have never been in danger of overheating. The pumps have also been feeding very low pressure (1.5 psi max) to the tonearms, so they are operating nowhere near their limits.
I already have some American hifi kit (including valve/tube amps) which I suspect would be benefit from running at the frequency their makers intended and I was wondering if, longer term, while my beloved is away on business for three weeks, I might be better off ato get my electrician in to run me a dedicated 110v circuit from my main switch board to my listening room and hook up one of these - 50Hz to 60Hz transformer Technical Specifications | RV Transformers - to take care of my American contingent?
I'm afraid insurance stipulations will bar me from installing any of the homebrew Siemens Micromaster 400 Series type rigs discussed here and elsewhere. So I will need to get a certificated electrician in and that will cost me, so I might as well do it right.
Incidentally, does anybody happen to have a scan copy of the Versa manual please? Vinylengine appears not to have one.
Thanks in advance.
Peter
Excellent!
I suggest you get the dedicated lines installed. May as well run 2 or 4 of them while you are at it.
I don't think the 50 Hz will be a problem for the pump or the controller box but you might want to shoot John an email to make sure.
I suggest you get the dedicated lines installed. May as well run 2 or 4 of them while you are at it.
I don't think the 50 Hz will be a problem for the pump or the controller box but you might want to shoot John an email to make sure.
Hello All,
I haven't had my Versa for over a decade, so I can't answer specific questions. However there are a few points to make:
1) Unlike the rest of the world, houses in the UK are wired with "ring" circuits. In the US, "dedicated lines" means running extra lines from the power entry panel in parallel with the other circuits to the desired location.
In the UK ring wiring means that all of the rooms are wired in series... :-(
That is why plugs on UK power cords have fuses in them. If there were a fuse in the house, when it blew the entire house would go dead.
Don't assume that whatever works for the rest of the world will work in the UK. I'm not sure what will or what won't, but I'm pretty sure you can't just do the same thing there that you can elsewhere in the world.
2) Different mains frequencies will have different effects on different things:
a) AC synchronous motors will run at different speeds, but as Peter correctly notes, the Versa is powered by a stepper motor that runs from a DC supply in the controller box. It's frequency is controlled by a quartz crystal that runs an internal microprocessor.
b) That doesn't mean that he is home free... :-( A 50 Hz rated transformer needs a 20% larger iron core than does a 60 Hz transformer. At Ayre we specify all of our transformers for 50 Hz operation so they simply work less hard at 60 Hz. Many transformers are designed this way and the nameplate will say "50/60 Hz".
If it only says "60 Hz", it will still work for quite a while. However it will run hotter. All transformers have losses and the lost energy shows up as heat. Running it at 50 Hz will make it run hotter than at 60 Hz. However transformers can take quite a bit of abuse before failing. The main things to note are the temperature and the noise levels. It would be very rare for a transformer to be damaged by running at 50 Hz.
To do so it would have to be running at the very ragged edge at 60 Hz so that running it at 50 Hz would push it over the edge and it would fail. Transformers can run very, very hot without failing. Usually the first thing to fail is the (nowadays) polyurethane insulation on the copper windings. Depending on the grade of magnet wire used, this would be anywhere from really, really, really hot to stupidly hot.
I would be surprised if this caused a problem, but it is (very remotely) possible.
c) The motor for the compressor/vacuum pump. This will run more slowly at 50 Hz than 60 Hz, almost certainly. This will reduce the air bearing pressure. We know that higher pressure makes any air bearing more rigid, yielding better sound.
At the same time JB shipped these all over the world so he must have designed them to run at 50 Hz and still operate properly. The motor/pump in the model one is a direct-drive affair, so there aren't any pulley sizes to change. JB must have designed it to work properly at 50 Hz.
I would think that the trouble-to-worth ratio of trying to convert 50 Hz to 60 Hz simply wouldn't pay off. Any gains would be too small to worry about.
3) The voltage to the control box is critically important. Running both the motor and the transformer at twice their rated voltage will blow things up VERY quickly! Please don't do this. You will want to get a step-down transformer, as replacing both of these will be extremely expensive. If you can run a 120 VAC/50 Hz line to the turntable, that would be slightly better than using a step-down transformer, but also much, much more expensive.
I hope this helps. I hope to get a schematic soon. There may be enough information to help provide more specific advice than the general advice in the post.
Enjoy your new toy. It is truly a masterpiece of engineering, design, and fabrication. As noted before I think it was decades ahead of its time. In stock form it will outperform modern $30,000 record players, and suitably modified I believe it may be the best record player ever made regardless of cost.
I haven't had my Versa for over a decade, so I can't answer specific questions. However there are a few points to make:
1) Unlike the rest of the world, houses in the UK are wired with "ring" circuits. In the US, "dedicated lines" means running extra lines from the power entry panel in parallel with the other circuits to the desired location.
In the UK ring wiring means that all of the rooms are wired in series... :-(
That is why plugs on UK power cords have fuses in them. If there were a fuse in the house, when it blew the entire house would go dead.
Don't assume that whatever works for the rest of the world will work in the UK. I'm not sure what will or what won't, but I'm pretty sure you can't just do the same thing there that you can elsewhere in the world.
2) Different mains frequencies will have different effects on different things:
a) AC synchronous motors will run at different speeds, but as Peter correctly notes, the Versa is powered by a stepper motor that runs from a DC supply in the controller box. It's frequency is controlled by a quartz crystal that runs an internal microprocessor.
b) That doesn't mean that he is home free... :-( A 50 Hz rated transformer needs a 20% larger iron core than does a 60 Hz transformer. At Ayre we specify all of our transformers for 50 Hz operation so they simply work less hard at 60 Hz. Many transformers are designed this way and the nameplate will say "50/60 Hz".
If it only says "60 Hz", it will still work for quite a while. However it will run hotter. All transformers have losses and the lost energy shows up as heat. Running it at 50 Hz will make it run hotter than at 60 Hz. However transformers can take quite a bit of abuse before failing. The main things to note are the temperature and the noise levels. It would be very rare for a transformer to be damaged by running at 50 Hz.
To do so it would have to be running at the very ragged edge at 60 Hz so that running it at 50 Hz would push it over the edge and it would fail. Transformers can run very, very hot without failing. Usually the first thing to fail is the (nowadays) polyurethane insulation on the copper windings. Depending on the grade of magnet wire used, this would be anywhere from really, really, really hot to stupidly hot.
I would be surprised if this caused a problem, but it is (very remotely) possible.
c) The motor for the compressor/vacuum pump. This will run more slowly at 50 Hz than 60 Hz, almost certainly. This will reduce the air bearing pressure. We know that higher pressure makes any air bearing more rigid, yielding better sound.
At the same time JB shipped these all over the world so he must have designed them to run at 50 Hz and still operate properly. The motor/pump in the model one is a direct-drive affair, so there aren't any pulley sizes to change. JB must have designed it to work properly at 50 Hz.
I would think that the trouble-to-worth ratio of trying to convert 50 Hz to 60 Hz simply wouldn't pay off. Any gains would be too small to worry about.
3) The voltage to the control box is critically important. Running both the motor and the transformer at twice their rated voltage will blow things up VERY quickly! Please don't do this. You will want to get a step-down transformer, as replacing both of these will be extremely expensive. If you can run a 120 VAC/50 Hz line to the turntable, that would be slightly better than using a step-down transformer, but also much, much more expensive.
I hope this helps. I hope to get a schematic soon. There may be enough information to help provide more specific advice than the general advice in the post.
Enjoy your new toy. It is truly a masterpiece of engineering, design, and fabrication. As noted before I think it was decades ahead of its time. In stock form it will outperform modern $30,000 record players, and suitably modified I believe it may be the best record player ever made regardless of cost.
Charles,
Thank you for this. It is very helpful.
Yes, the UK mains is a joy to behold. We went ring to save on copper after WW2, but it is odd.
I have a variety of step downs and I'll look for the chunkiest to run the Versa and pump off.
The idea of having a dedicated line has been with me for a while because of the problems you described with saturation of transformers. But I have got away for years on tube amps without do anything.
The Versa is just prodding me into action.
Best
Peter
If Nextel paint was used, the stuff will turn to sticky goo in a decade or two. This paint was used on Revox B-790 and Dunlop Systemdek turntables. I owned a Dunlop Systemdek Transcription turntable and recently repaired a Revox turntable for a customer. The 'sticky goo' symptom of the paint was the same on both decks.
bulgin
bulgin
Hi,
As explained previously, I am very familiar with Nextel as we used it on some of the Avalon loudspeakers. It is a two-part catalyzed paint, very much like epoxies are two-part catalyzed adhesives. With epoxies, the resin is mixed with a hardener. The hardener catalyzes a chemical reaction in the resin that turns it from a liquid to a solid.
If epoxy resin is left open, it is not like a water-based adhesive (eg, "white glue") that will harden as the water evaporates. It just stays a sticky, gooey mess forever. It only hardens when mixed with the hardener (catalyst).
When spraying Nextel, special spray guns are required that mix the catalyst with the paint as they are sprayed together through the gun. The paint then does not dry as normal paints do - via the solvents evaporating. Instead the hardener catalyzes a chemical reaction that turns the liquid paint into a solid.
Nextel is unique because after the chemical reaction occurs, it is not hard like epoxy. Instead it feels almost exactly like suede leather. It is very tough. John Bicht said that the best way to remove dust from the textured surface was to use a dry scrub brush (nylon bristles are OK, but natural fibers such as boar bristles are much better). It seemed odd to take a piece of equipment that cost tens of thousands of dollars and scrub it none-too-gently with a stiff scrub brush, but that is how tough the catalyzed Nextel is.
At Avalon we would occasionally get a customer who had gouged the paint with a metal object. The way to "touch up" the paint was to use a small paint brush and apply only the paint with no catalyst. After a day or so it would "dry" to some degree. It wasn't catalyzed, so it wasn't as tough as the regular finish, but it looked fine.
It sounds to me that if you had any problems with a Revox or Systemdek that they must not have used sufficient catalyst. These chemicals have a shelf life and perhaps they used some out-of-date "hardener" that didn't catalyze the paint. This is speculation on my part.
I have a pair of Nextel-finished Avalon speakers in my basement that have not been treated well over their 25+ year life. The paint has been scuffed badly in places and the suede-like texture has been rubbed smooth and shiny. There are even places where the paint has been cut through completely by a hard metal object. But it is not sticky or gooey anywhere.
I have tried cutting properly cured Nextel paint with a knife, and it is extremely tough and difficult to damage. With great difficult it can be peeled off, and the remnants are a very tough, flexible and very slightly elastic polymer. The closest thing I can compare it to is the material used in automotive airbags. It is that tough.
Hope this helps.
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