Supported in the lows by 2x12" Discovery and 2xRSS390HF Dayton, all closed. The Satori goes quite deep and powerful, but are mainly chosen to handle dynamics and voices/instruments, since the KEF won't do much below 400Hz. I would have done the same for the Sica. A 5" below around 500Hz would be way to small - IMO. We can't cheat physics. I bought the KEF LS Meta, and no matter what I did, it will never play bass.... It needs woofers/subwoofers! As a desktop speaker at 0,5m it might be ok at low level with some boost.... But... Just no.
Paired with woofers and subwoofers... It suddenly shines..
This is a bad joke by KEF :
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s...sion.png?rlkey=mg8kxns730s0g2ra1etejnjrx&dl=0
It shows how power limited a quarter-inch tweeter really is!
Tweeter should be redesigned , Ferrofluid plus longer voice coil and stronger magnets!
Source : https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_ls60/
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s...sion.png?rlkey=mg8kxns730s0g2ra1etejnjrx&dl=0
It shows how power limited a quarter-inch tweeter really is!
Tweeter should be redesigned , Ferrofluid plus longer voice coil and stronger magnets!
Source : https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_ls60/
Actually it is 3/4 inch. And abrupt power limiting to SPLmax=95 dB/1m is due to the DSP limiter.
Sorry I meant 3 quarter inch , damn another mad glitch in my matrix 🙂
DSP limiter? Are you sure? At higher freq's the coil stands still nearly no movement so restricted air flow and suppressed heat distribution ...
It makes no sense to reduce only the hi-freqs above 8000Hz , approx half the energy is then limited but the other lower half is not restricted? Lower freqs have longer duration time so that rises the heat problem even more!
Anyway ... having a superlong excursion speaker who reaches down to 20Hz but has not enough headroom for the highest octave is a contradiction that I don't like ...
DSP limiter? Are you sure? At higher freq's the coil stands still nearly no movement so restricted air flow and suppressed heat distribution ...
It makes no sense to reduce only the hi-freqs above 8000Hz , approx half the energy is then limited but the other lower half is not restricted? Lower freqs have longer duration time so that rises the heat problem even more!
Anyway ... having a superlong excursion speaker who reaches down to 20Hz but has not enough headroom for the highest octave is a contradiction that I don't like ...
Yes, I am sure 95 dB limiting is due to the DSP limiter - just look at the woofer output limiting. At SPL = 96 dB woofer sound output is already 3 dB down at 70 Hz, compared to SPL = 76 dB (limiter action here is like a high-pass filter).
Frequency depended limiting is used, to not degrade sound overly at high SPL - there should be enough output between 80 Hz and 8 kHz, even when limiter is working.
Frequency depended limiting is used, to not degrade sound overly at high SPL - there should be enough output between 80 Hz and 8 kHz, even when limiter is working.
Okay thanks for your explanation , makes sense!
What about a passive tweeter protection circuit?
Maybe only a fuse with (small) capacitor paralell?
just an idea ...
What about a passive tweeter protection circuit?
Maybe only a fuse with (small) capacitor paralell?
just an idea ...
Why bother with passive when you have dsp capability already implemented? For this kind of things it doesn't makes sense to ad passive in signal path if you already have dsp already implemented ( passive can be interesting for other means though but not protection features, difficult to beat digital in that case).
Assuming you can have 80% of the performance regarding subjective sound quality of a "better" digital driven loudspeaker , I am not willing to pay double the price of a speaker with the same transducers in the box!
Also , repairing the electronix is impossible , so you have to buy the whole electronic set which is very expensive ... and storing whole replacements for a long time is a price that is already included by calculation , rising the final price further , no free lunch!
Go digital but think about the future!
Also , repairing the electronix is impossible , so you have to buy the whole electronic set which is very expensive ... and storing whole replacements for a long time is a price that is already included by calculation , rising the final price further , no free lunch!
Go digital but think about the future!
I think that's one of the strangest counter arguments I have read.
Btw, you also don't have to pay double the price.
For the price of all the passive components, you can buy quite a decent performing amplifier + dsp these days.
Even better if you just look at the 2nd hand market.
Tons and tons of nice performing 80s, 90s and 00s amplifiers and (surround) receivers available.
So we are even recycling! 🙂
Nothing is holding you back from getting analog active filters instead, which is also a lot cheaper than a DSP + no AD/DA conversion if that's your thing.
Also, nothing is holding you back from going hybrid as well.
Btw, you also don't have to pay double the price.
For the price of all the passive components, you can buy quite a decent performing amplifier + dsp these days.
Even better if you just look at the 2nd hand market.
Tons and tons of nice performing 80s, 90s and 00s amplifiers and (surround) receivers available.
So we are even recycling! 🙂
Nothing is holding you back from getting analog active filters instead, which is also a lot cheaper than a DSP + no AD/DA conversion if that's your thing.
Also, nothing is holding you back from going hybrid as well.
Anyway, yeah the real issue is that there aren't many coax drivers well optimized.
The majority I know haven't been much more than an afterthought after they first had a woofer.
Meaning the actual shape of the cone (= waveguide) is far from being optimized for proper HF performance.
Often they also still trying to push the entire range out of one unit and just add a very sad wimpy little tweeter.
Which is problematic for anything that is > 5 inch.
I just want a coax to play from about 100Hz and upwards.
So I don't care much about cone excursion (just 2mm max or so is fine).
No big rubber surrounds are needed either.
The majority I know haven't been much more than an afterthought after they first had a woofer.
Meaning the actual shape of the cone (= waveguide) is far from being optimized for proper HF performance.
Often they also still trying to push the entire range out of one unit and just add a very sad wimpy little tweeter.
Which is problematic for anything that is > 5 inch.
I just want a coax to play from about 100Hz and upwards.
So I don't care much about cone excursion (just 2mm max or so is fine).
No big rubber surrounds are needed either.
what about this new Beyma:
https://www.beyma.com/en/products/c/coaxial/108CFX26ND8/altavoz-8cfx260nd-8-oh/
add a dedicated bass and you are done 🙂
https://www.beyma.com/en/products/c/coaxial/108CFX26ND8/altavoz-8cfx260nd-8-oh/
add a dedicated bass and you are done 🙂
Customers are victims of crippled dynamix thru "digital optimization" of your hearing experience , near end of vid showing "digital protection" :
Is this future of HiFi?
Probably you need further surveilance by government to be switched off if you intended to listen to dirty musick?
Very dirty for sure :
Or this one (giggle) :
Is this future of HiFi?
Probably you need further surveilance by government to be switched off if you intended to listen to dirty musick?
Very dirty for sure :
Or this one (giggle) :
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People expect from professional active speakers that they can throw everything at them and they survive. And as I do a lot of measuring that's a VERY welcome behaviour! 🤓 (cause you destroy speakers quickly with sine waves)
But there are very different behaviours. You can't get 94dBSpl out of Genelec One's for measurements cause the tweeter is limiting >10kHz. They do probably fine with short peaks we need in music but limiting is very strickt. The tweeter could do it for sure.
No problem with Neumanns implementation, they simply go closer to the limits of the tweeter.
As nobody is using brains or ears nowadays for keeping SPL under control ... it's simply needed.
(And I also don't do so and run brutal sweeps from 20Hz to 50kHz in my poor speakers. 😛)
But there are very different behaviours. You can't get 94dBSpl out of Genelec One's for measurements cause the tweeter is limiting >10kHz. They do probably fine with short peaks we need in music but limiting is very strickt. The tweeter could do it for sure.
No problem with Neumanns implementation, they simply go closer to the limits of the tweeter.
As nobody is using brains or ears nowadays for keeping SPL under control ... it's simply needed.
(And I also don't do so and run brutal sweeps from 20Hz to 50kHz in my poor speakers. 😛)
Marveloudio: it makes no sense.
Future of Hifi: there is no future to High Fidelity, people are interested into lifestyle products not into sound. You doubt it then see how many soundbars are availlable in shop and compare to 'regular' shaped loudspeakers. Add to this the trend of domestic room global furniture ( minimalist) and here you are... audio quality?....
The hifi future is into diy imho, knowing what YOU like and WANT. Otherwise... you are a millionaire and have a decent large room and money to spend on overpriced products them being acoustical treatments or loudspeakers/electronic...
You are barking the wrong tree if you think it's an issue with dsp. And what are you talking about exactly?
Diy or commercial products? Commercial have a whole set of own issue to be taken care of (independant of audio quality), first one being the typical customer is an idiot and the product should be protected against this...
Limiters and protection devices are not needed ever if you understand the headroom principle. I run a dsp with limiters and never used them... but i know what i'm doing and headroom ( amplifiers) and source are under control as the basis of modifications i perform/system i play with.
But not everyone is a pro as i'm and either people are too lazy, uneducated about it or just plain bully so there is a definitive need for protection device in a commercial product. There is a reason i'm the only one allowed to operate my mains at home... the rest of familly have a second set of typical passive loudspeaker/system they are allowed to use as they get how it perform 'safely'.
Future of Hifi: there is no future to High Fidelity, people are interested into lifestyle products not into sound. You doubt it then see how many soundbars are availlable in shop and compare to 'regular' shaped loudspeakers. Add to this the trend of domestic room global furniture ( minimalist) and here you are... audio quality?....
The hifi future is into diy imho, knowing what YOU like and WANT. Otherwise... you are a millionaire and have a decent large room and money to spend on overpriced products them being acoustical treatments or loudspeakers/electronic...
You are barking the wrong tree if you think it's an issue with dsp. And what are you talking about exactly?
Diy or commercial products? Commercial have a whole set of own issue to be taken care of (independant of audio quality), first one being the typical customer is an idiot and the product should be protected against this...
Limiters and protection devices are not needed ever if you understand the headroom principle. I run a dsp with limiters and never used them... but i know what i'm doing and headroom ( amplifiers) and source are under control as the basis of modifications i perform/system i play with.
But not everyone is a pro as i'm and either people are too lazy, uneducated about it or just plain bully so there is a definitive need for protection device in a commercial product. There is a reason i'm the only one allowed to operate my mains at home... the rest of familly have a second set of typical passive loudspeaker/system they are allowed to use as they get how it perform 'safely'.
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Please grab your DIY mind teeth deep into this one :
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/making-a-kef-ls50-clone.49601/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f_q150_and_ls50_meta_side_by_side-jpg.326898/
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https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-meta-review-speaker.25574/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-q150-bookshelf-speaker-review-by-erin.31249/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/making-a-kef-ls50-clone.49601/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f_q150_and_ls50_meta_side_by_side-jpg.326898/
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https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-meta-review-speaker.25574/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-q150-bookshelf-speaker-review-by-erin.31249/
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As someone who has designed and/or worked on many loudspeakers and other products, I can assure you that there quite some customers that somehow know how to totally torture your devices (not just audio related) on very obvious ways that it was never intended to be used for. Some are absolute idiots, often claiming to know it all.
Yet also know how to blame the company for it.
Which is just really bad and annoying.
I agree with the idea that there are many active speakers out there with just plain poor and bad crossover design and horrible implementation.
That only has absolutely nothing to do with the technology.
But if people are saying that dynamics are limited because of an active design, it's quite the opposite way.
With a well implemented DSP design you can actually get a lot more headroom and dynamic range out of the same loudspeaker as well as the amplifiers.
It's just simple fundamental physics.
What is the point? i don't get what your trying to show comparing different products in Kef line. Drivers are differents ( even if they look the same), cabinet too and i'm sure xover is the same situation...
Your source can be questionable too ( ASR, not Erin's) as many people in there are obsessive on numbers and on many occasion doesn't even listen to the products in question nor even try to understand the why about issues a product could have... but it doesn't stop to rank them and give ( bad) advice to solve issues*! It's a consummer place more than a diyer's one ( even if some diy efforts coming from there are excellent in my view).
And if you go back a few page on this thread you'll see i own one pair of this kef's drivers and not the other. And i try to diy something with them
( and dsp, the same i own for more than 10years without needs to change it if it can answer your fear about digital obsolescence).
@b_force, we agree active filtering ( being it dsp or other mean) and multi amp help to increase headroom when implemented and used correctly.
About customers:
I once bought a microwave which had a warning in the manual i found disturbing: 'don't use it to dry your pets'. 😱 If they included this it means it happened and the genius at work probably tryed to put this into court/justice... people are amazing!
* i eyballed the links and seen someone using peq with high Q trying to solve issues with Q150 from spinorama results... i discourage anyone to do such thing without more measurements than the spinorama. Almost as bad advice as trying to solve a driver offset issue with eq... ( see Tannoy System600 review at ASR and cry or laugh).
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It's for sure a more "musical" signal as pink noise. Aiming for 2-3dB power compression is a little brutal but seem to work.
I would stick with the definition that single 1/3 octave bands are not allowed to show more power compression so you can detect (and protect9 a compressing tweeter.
You don't have any information about THD with this measurement. You need to use a multitone measurement for that - more elegant in my opinion.
That tweeter must be very inefficient.
I'm getting 94 dB out of the hpm 900 tweeter at 20khz 1 watt. It can take 200w peaks in music.
I'm getting 94 dB out of the hpm 900 tweeter at 20khz 1 watt. It can take 200w peaks in music.